Sailor moon star seed downgrade

[Theglassman12]

Looking at this thread and this blog, there’s a lot of things wrong here in regards to the abilities granted by star seeds. The entire explanation for Conceptual manipulation doesn’t remotely talk about any fundamental concept that’s the form of star seeds. Tuxedo’s argument of being erased, resulting in his daughter being erased to has nothing to do with conceptual Manipulation, that’s just a time paradox happening, nothing about this or the whole “future self is unaffected by his past being changed” has anything to do with conceptual manipulation.

Information manipulation has no basis whatsoever as nothing about this literally controlling information itself, just power modification, corruption and blessing (which btw has no scans for most of this whatsoever).

What part of your body being destroyed from removing a star seed has anything to do with biological hax? Literally nothing about this is bio hax and instead is just a result of removing someone’s star seeds.

Soul hax doesn’t have any scans whatsoever and again, removing a star seed resulting in someone’s soul being destroyed sounds like an after effect of the seed itself rather than directly controlling the soul.

Same with both Power nullification and energy manipulation having no scans whatsoever and a bare bones explanation to remotely explain anything on how Star seeds works. All in all these things needs to be removed from the pages or needs a massive rework in general.

 

[Eseseso]

Sure

 

[TISSG7Redgrave]

Concept sounds more like acausal and probability, Info doesn't really sound like info but more to corruption, Bio, soul, power null, and energy kinda need scans to show more as its very barebones (like power null with this statement: A sailor senshi is able to regenerate from their star seeds, however one can prevent that from happening.).

So I think there needs to be scans at least or a rework with which ability they correspond to.

 

[Qliphoth_Bacikal]

Only looking at the blog for an easier time of reading:

Concept Manip definitely sounds more like something related to acausality and probability, maybe even life manipulation but that might somehow be a stretch though it is said to be the source of all life so...maybe.

The info manip part is definitely just corruption and blessing related, and everything else has next to no scans justifying them.

Assuming any of these ARE legit, they do need to have the scans that tell of them as said. Otherwise, I agree in having them removed and just linking the abilities to ones that relate to them the most until that is covered.

 

[CodeCCLL]

This much, much worse than I thought.

 

[Wikisource]

Well, this really happened.

 

[Wikisource]

Starseeds are possibilities and the source of all life and all celestial objects, and the source of all abilities in the verse. They are the fundamental aspect of everything in the verse.

The source of something not really a concept. It's same like human is the source of all objects they made but this doesn't mean they are concept. I think this maybe a limited causality manipulation or nothing...

 

[Dark_Soul20189]

Welp, A rework is definitely required, EIther way, I agree with this CRT.

 

[Planck69]

Yeah, the CRT largely makes sense. I'm willing to let some of the scans be supplied but if not, then these powers should be removed.

 

[Iamunanimousinthat]

I will reply later with counter arguments.

 

[Iamunanimousinthat]

The source of something not really a concept. It's same like human is the source of all objects they made but this doesn't mean they are concept. I think this maybe a limited causality manipulation or nothing...

I will make a bigger post later to address OP’s concerns but I just want to quickly refute this:

If you destroy humans, the things they create do not disappear. If you destroy starseeds, the things they give form, disappear from reality across history.

Your analogy doesn’t fit here.

 

[Iamunanimousinthat]

The entire explanation for Conceptual manipulation doesn’t remotely talk about any fundamental concept that’s the form of star seeds.

Star seeds are the concepts. They are the abstract fundamental aspect that gives everything form.

And before it is stated, no where in the Conceptual Manipulation page state that concepts or their equivalence have to be general. They can be specific and individualized.

Tuxedo’s argument of being erased, resulting in his daughter being erased to has nothing to do with conceptual Manipulation, that’s just a time paradox happening, nothing about this or the whole “future self is unaffected by his past being changed” has anything to do with conceptual manipulation.

You are taking this out if context. I urge you to address the conceptual manipulation page. It has everything to do with conceptual manipulation.

From the page:

In this way, the alteration of these concepts will change every object of the concept across all of their area of influence, while the opposite wouldn't affect the concept.

Killing Tuxedo Mask (the form) did not have an affect on his future self or his daughter who is dependent on his existence.

Destroying Tuxedo’s starseed (the concept) did have an affect on his future self and erased his daughter who is dependent on his existence.

Does this example not fit what is described as a characteristic of Type 1 Concepts? Yes or No? If No, why not?

Information manipulation has no basis whatsoever as nothing about this literally controlling information itself, just power modification, corruption and blessing (which btw has no scans for most of this whatsoever).

Again, I urge you to first address the Information Manipulation page.

It says here:

These characters can manipulate information, which serves as fundamental building block of reality. This can allow characters to rewrite the world to their whims

Starseeds are the fundamental building blocks of reality.

Sailor Galaxia manipulates the star seeds to rewrite the properties of the senshi.

What part of your body being destroyed from removing a star seed has anything to do with biological hax? Literally nothing about this is bio hax and instead is just a result of removing someone’s star seeds.

Soul hax doesn’t have any scans whatsoever and again, removing a star seed resulting in someone’s soul being destroyed sounds like an after effect of the seed itself rather than directly controlling the soul.

Star seeds give form, that form would include body, soul, mind. Manipulating Star seeds would allow one to alter one’s soul, body, and mind. That is the case with Galaxia doing such with the senshi.

Perhaps writing it as: Biological, Mind, and Soul Manipulation via information Manipulation would be more accurate and avoid confusion.

Same with both Power nullification and energy manipulation having no scans whatsoever and a bare bones explanation to remotely explain anything on how Star seeds works. All in all these things needs to be removed from the pages or needs a massive rework in general.

Starseeds are also the source of power. If you take someone’s star seed, you are also taking away their power.

Senshi can regenerate from their star seeds. Galaxia is actively preventing them from doing so. Here is a scene of them trying to regenerate before Galaxia destroys their form:



Star Seeds are unique mechanic to Sailor Moon but this wiki has historically equated them to Type 1 concepts and information because they fall under and adhere to the standards and requirements of both abilities. This is a regular practice for indexing unique verse-specific abilities.

 

[Wikisource]

I will make a bigger post later to address OP’s concerns but I just want to quickly refute this:

If you destroy humans, the things they create do not disappear. If you destroy starseeds, the things they give form, disappear from reality across history.

Your analogy doesn’t fit here.

From what I said, that not kind of argument can be used. Destroy something and another one gived form by its disappear seems like a "domino effect". But I will stop and leave it to Glassman.

 

[Iamunanimousinthat]

From what I said, that not kind of argument can be used. Destroy something and another one gived form by its disappear seems like a "domino effect". But I will stop and leave it to Glassman.

I will just say that’s literally the case for all type 1 concepts and is one of the requirements on the conceptual manipulation page.

 

[Wikisource]

I will just say that’s literally the case for all type 1 concepts and is one of the requirements on the conceptual manipulation page.

Well, the most important here is concept that shape the reality, which I doesn't see here. About keep something exist, it can be many things.

 

[Iamunanimousinthat]

Well, the most important here is concept that shape the reality, which I doesn't see here. About keep something exist, it can be many things.

That's literally what star seeds do. They're the source of everything in existence and give shape to everything in reality. Without them, nothing would exist.

 

[Vietthai96]

They are the abstract fundamental aspect that gives everything form.

Tbh, you don't need to be abstract concept to given form to something

Does this example not fit what is described as a characteristic of Type 1 Concepts? Yes or No? If No, why not?

It also fit into multiple other abilities, effects, why it must be concept. Abilities, haxes are varies, which can overlap and can achieve similar result, why it must only be hax A or hax B???

Star seeds give form, that form would include body, soul, mind. Manipulating Star seeds would allow one to alter one’s soul, body, and mind. That is the case with Galaxia doing such with the senshi.

Not try to be a shitty person, but why it must be info 2 and not other abilities??, there are multiple ways, abilities that can change one properties, why it must be info 2??

Well, the most important here is concept that shape the reality, which I doesn't see here. About keep something exist, it can be many things.

Tbf here, you don't really need concept to shape reality, or else i could argue many thing to be concepts

Star Seeds are unique mechanic to Sailor Moon but this wiki has historically equated them to Type 1 concepts and information

Historically, it was conceptual only (i don't remember what type) before not info, and it was removed

All and all, aside from the lack of scan, your arguments are based on: the starseed can change this properties, shape and influence that form. And then you make a comparison with the effects that concept and info 2 can achieves, which are similar thus you come into conclusion that the starseed must be concept and info 2 at the same time

Well, idrc much, but at least personally i think you should put scans on the page first, the lack of scans make the page look terrible and people could well say that all those empty words is just headcanon

 

[Iamunanimousinthat]

Tbh, you don't need to be abstract concept to given form to something

Give us an example of such a thing.

It also fit into multiple other abilities, effects, why it must be concept. Abilities, haxes are varies, which can overlap and can achieve similar result, why it must only be hax A or hax B???

Not try to be a shitty person, but why it must be info 2 and not other abilities??, there are multiple ways, abilities that can change one properties, why it must be info 2??

If an ability can fit A, B, and C then it should be indexed as A, B, and C. Why should it be indexed as only A or B or C? Especially if A, B, and C are not mutually exclusive.

your arguments are based on: the starseed can change this properties, shape and influence that form. And then you make a comparison with the effects that concept and info 2 can achieves, which are similar thus you come into conclusion that the starseed must be concept and info 2 at the same time

That's not my argument at all.

The arguments are star seeds fit the requirements for Type 1 Concepts and Type 2 Information. No one has actually provided arguments that says contrary.

People keep saying "it lacks scans" but no one has stated for which requirement do I lack scans for? What specifically are you asking me to prove? What requirement from Concept Manipulation Page and the Information Manipulation Page are you not seeing?

 

[Wikisource]

Tbf here, you don't really need concept to shape reality, or else i could argue many thing to be concepts

That's a way to prove it, btw

 

[Theglassman12]

@Iamunanimousinthat you got any scans to prove that they are concepts? Saying they are without proving it isn't helping your case when one of my biggest gripes with your own blog is the scans are almost nonexistent with explaining most of the star seeds properties.

Literally what part of erasing his concept (assuming that's what a star seed which you haven't proven btw) remotely makes this a type 1 concept? Literally nothing here remotely mentions this being a concept, just that it causes someone in the future to die a la a time paradox.

Again, what part of this is anyway shape or form information hax? You can quote the page all you want but it can also just be literally anything else like corruption given the senshi turns evil with this argument. The burden of proof is on you that they're referring to information hax specifically and not any other random ability.

No it wouldn't given again, this has no bearing to be information hax, let alone bio and soul hax as they're not directly affecting them, plus again. No scans for these so it makes it hard for me to take these seriously.

That's not power nullification to remove the source of their power. That's a weakness more than anything, if it's actually power null, they'd literally nullify the star seed in question to leave them powerless. This is the equivalent of taking away the batteries off a device and leaving it powerless with the lack of energy as opposed to directly shutting down the source.

 

[Iamunanimousinthat]

Literally what part of erasing his concept (assuming that's what a star seed which you haven't proven btw) remotely makes this a type 1 concept? Literally nothing here remotely mentions this being a concept, just that it causes someone in the future to die a la a time paradox.

Again. That's not my argument. I'm just going to re-copy it again, for you to actually address it:

You are taking this out if context. I urge you to address the conceptual manipulation page. It has everything to do with conceptual manipulation.

From the page:

In this way, the alteration of these concepts will change every object of the concept across all of their area of influence, while the opposite wouldn't affect the concept.

Killing Tuxedo Mask (the form) did not have an affect on his future self or his daughter who is dependent on his existence.

Destroying Tuxedo’s starseed (the concept) did have an affect on his future self and erased his daughter who is dependent on his existence.

Does this example not fit what is described as a characteristic of Type 1 Concepts? Yes or No? If No, why not?

Again, what part of this is anyway shape or form information hax? You can quote the page all you want but it can also just be literally anything else like corruption given the senshi turns evil with this argument. The burden of proof is on you that they're referring to information hax specifically and not any other random ability.

The pages detail the exact requirements for Type 1 concepts and fundamental information.

Star Seeds are recognized as Type 1 concepts because they meet the requirements for Type 1 Concepts. Your arguments are literally just feelings. What requirements have I not proven? Please be specific:

Spoiler: Concepts

"Such concepts are completely independent from the part of reality they govern, except maybe of other concepts of this nature. These concepts shape all of reality within their area of influence and at whatever level that area exists in, and everything in it "participates" in these concepts. For example, a circular object is circular because it is "participating" in the concept of "circle-ness". In this way, the alteration of these concepts will change every object of the concept across all of their area of influence, while the opposite wouldn't affect the concept."

These concepts shape all of reality within their area of influence and at whatever level that area exists in, and everything in it "participates" in these concepts.

Starseeds are possibilities and the source of all life and all celestial objects, and the source of all abilities in the verse. They are the fundamental aspect of everything in the verse.

Such concepts are completely independent from the part of reality they govern

Even though star seeds pertain to the thing they form, they can be taken and used independently. The Sailor Animamates took the Sailor Crystals of dead Sailor Senshi and used it to power themselves. If star seeds were dependent on their forms, they would disappear when those forms are destroyed or erased. (Sailor Crystals are "super" star seeds for those who don't know)

the alteration of these concepts will change every object of the concept across all of their area of influence

When Tuxedo Kamen was pushed into the galaxy cauldron and his star seed was destroyed. Chibi-Usa, his daughter from the future, was immediately erased from history, meaning everything that was dependent on him ceased to exist.

the opposite wouldn't affect the concept.

When Tuxedo Kamen was erased in the past, his future self was still alive in the future and his daughter, Chibi-Usa, was unaffected by her father dying in the past

Star Seeds are recognized as Fundamental Information because they meet the requirement. The Information page defines Type 2 as the fundamental building blocks of reality. This is what star seeds are also within the verse.

Your argument that "it can be anything else" isn't a logical argument. You can use conceptual manipulation to corrupt beings. Special Verse techniques and abilities don't need to be called X to be indexed as X in the wiki. If they meet the requirements of X, then they should be treated so.

If an attack called "raging water" electrocutes a victim, I can index it as electricity manipulation, even though the attack isn't called raging thunder or raging lightning.

 

[Planck69]

I will just say that’s literally the case for all type 1 concepts and is one of the requirements on the conceptual manipulation page.

Affecting reality is a requirement but this is not proof in and of itself of Concept Manipulation whatsoever.

It's a fairly common phenomenon in fiction for an object to support the existence of other instances of itself or beings that depend on it.

So far, you've attempted to prove that these star seeds affect reality (specific individuals mind you, not even general aspects of reality) but haven't actually proven that they're concepts at all.

 

[Iamunanimousinthat]

specific individuals mind you, not even general aspects of reality)

Concepts do not have to be general aspects, they can be specific.

haven't actually proven that they're concepts at all.

Before I move on with proving, can you first confirm this definition of a concept:

An abstraction that gives objects in reality their form.

 

[Planck69]

Concepts do not have to be general aspects, they can be specific.



Before I move on with proving, can you first confirm this definition of a concept:

An abstraction that gives objects in reality their form.

Sure, for the most part. But unless you have entirely new scans that weren't presented above, nothing posted so far proves this.

 

[Iamunanimousinthat]

Sure, for the most part. But unless you have entirely new scans that weren't presented above, nothing posted so far proves this.

"An abstraction that gives objects in reality their form"

Star Seeds are birthed from the Galaxy Cauldron, the origin of everything in reality. Star Seeds are stars and possibilities.

Star Seeds are the source of all life and celestial objects. This include non-physical beings like ghosts, spirits, etc.

Sailor Moon states that if she gets her friends star seeds back, she can return their physical forms.


These scans show that star seeds are possibilities, an abstract notion, and give form to non-physical beings as well as phsyical ones. Is this not proof that they are abstract?

These scans also show that star seeds are responsible for the forms things take in the universe, is this not proof that they give objects in reality their form?

 

[Planck69]

"An abstraction that gives objects in reality their form"

Star Seeds are birthed from the Galaxy Cauldron, the origin of everything in reality. Star Seeds are stars and possibilities.

The first scan only specifies that it's the source of all stars and planets in the galaxy. The third scan just says that this Galaxy Cauldron, which seems to imply itself to be a mystical version of IRL Sagittarius A, is where all stars and possibilities come from. The second is the closest thing to what you're implying with it mentioning everything and everywhere. Frankly, taking it all in as a whole, it just tells me that star seeds come from the same source and origin of the galaxy itself.

Also, even assuming the above were not true and that star seeds do come from the source of reality as a whole, being born from the source of reality isn't any proof of abstraction. You know what else comes from the source of everything? Everything else.

Star Seeds are the source of all life and celestial objects. This include non-physical beings like ghosts, spirits, etc.

Being the source of all life and the like doesn't make something abstract. Else every originating force or being in fiction would an abstract.

Sailor Moon states that if she gets her friends star seeds back, she can return their physical forms.


These scans show that star seeds are possibilities, an abstract notion, and give form to non-physical beings as well as phsyical ones. Is this not proof that they are abstract?

These scans also show that star seeds are responsible for the forms things take in the universe, is this not proof that they give objects in reality their form?

Yeah, these scans show none of that. If anything, they make me more critical of the profile itself.

 

[Iamunanimousinthat]

Also, even assuming the above were not true and that star seeds do come from the source of reality as a whole, being born from the source of reality isn't any proof of abstraction. You know what else comes from the source of everything? Everything else.

The Cauldron gives birth to star seeds, which becomes everything. The other scans I told you literally say that star seeds become stars, planets, organisms, etc. no matter what their shape, size, or name.

Being the source of all life and the like doesn't make something abstract. Else every originating force or being in fiction would an abstract.

I said, that the star seeds are the source of possibilities, which are abstract, and non-physical beings. I did not say that being the source of life makes something abstract.

 

[Iamunanimousinthat]

The first scan only specifies that it's the source of all stars and planets in the galaxy

And to also nip this in the bud, the galaxy cauldron is responsible for everything in the entire cosmology. Not just the galaxy.

Pharaoh 90 is a being from another dimension, and too came from the Galaxy Cauldron.

 

[Planck69]

And to also nip this in the bud, the galaxy cauldron is responsible for everything in the entire cosmology. Not just the galaxy.

Pharaoh 90 is a being from another dimension, and too came from the Galaxy Cauldron.

I mean, assuming this other dimension is a full universe like our own, would they not just come from their own version of the Galaxy cauldron? Cause the scans prior this do specify that the Galaxy Cauldron the star seed comes from is Saggitarius A (named "Sagitarrius Zero Star" here).

Though, regardless of this, my other points stand unchanged. The star seeds are the source of the stars and planets and presumably everything else. That does not make them abstract, nor does coming from the Galaxy Cauldron.

 

[Iamunanimousinthat]

I mean, assuming this other dimension is a full universe like our own, would they not just come from their own version of the Galaxy cauldron? Cause the scans prior this do specify that the Galaxy Cauldron the star seed comes from is Saggitarius A (named "Sagitarrius Zero Star" here).

Yes it is a full universe. Only the main universe, Sailor Moon's universe, has the cauldron. There is only one. The Cauldron sends star seeds out across space and time. The Galaxy cauldron is located at the center of the Milky Way based on the real life Sagittarius A*.

Though, regardless of this, my other points stand unchanged. The star seeds are the source of the stars and planets and presumably everything else. That does not make them abstract, nor does coming from the Galaxy Cauldron.

If we assume what you are saying is correct, can you explain your reasoning as to why a concrete object would be able to create possibilities, something that is abstract, as well as non-physical phenomena? Star Seeds would pre-date all matter and even minds and souls, as they come from them.

For example, Death Phantom is a being who after his physical body rotted away, his true "form" became resentment. He too still had a star seed that was born from the Cauldron and returned to it after he was destroyed.

 

[Planck69]

If we assume what you are saying is correct, can you explain your reasoning as to why a concrete object would be able to create possibilities, something that is abstract, as well as non-physical phenomena?

For example, Death Phantom is a being who after his physical body rotted away, his true "form" became resentment. He too still had a star seed that was born from the Cauldron and returned to it after he was destroyed.

1. We do not know what "create possibilities" means here. At all. It could be literal timelines. It could refer to the fact that Star Seeds can become anything, stars, planets, etc. It could just be fluff. You're hinging a lot on a single phrase that's never elaborated.

2. You've yet to prove it to be abstract, and seem to be arguing backwards from that point. So far, I've disagreed with most of the proof for this to begin with yet you bring it up as though it's stated verbatim.

3. That does not say his true form "became" resentment but that this Nemesis figure is soaking up his resentment and using it to move the planet. And even then, he had a physical form before, his star seed being his source could still be physical regardless of what happens to him after he dies.

None of this says the star seed is abstract or a concept, it's just backwards argumentation. And you have to prove that it has to be so to create all these phenomena. An apple can be the source of reality, this isn't something inherent to concepts.

 

[Iamunanimousinthat]

arguing backwards from that point

Backward reasoning is a valid form of arguing. The use of it, does not mean the argument is wrong or unfounded. But I was not using backwards reasoning when I asked you my question. Let me rephrase to make it simpler.

If star seeds are physical, and can give form to non-physical things. And we know that star seeds reside inside the object they give form to. How can something physical reside in something non-physical?

 

[Iamunanimousinthat]

1. We do not know what "create possibilities" means here. At all. It could be literal timelines. It could refer to the fact that Star Seeds can become anything, stars, planets, etc. It could just be fluff. You're hinging a lot on a single phrase that's never elaborated.

Possibilities is also translated as potential. I would argue that the star seeds are the possibility and potential themselves. Sailor Moon manga also likes to use the word star metaphorically and literally. Metaphorically they refer to planets, moons, and even people as stars. They also refer to their own star seeds as stars. But literally, star seeds become actual stars. Guardian Cosmos, the whole who is speaking, is calling star seeds stars and possibilities/potential but also referring to things that star seeds create.




Also here:



Queen Serenity is making reference to star seed. She mentions it being inside our hearts. She is not speaking about physical beating heart but the abstract one.

 

[Theglassman12]

Literally what part about the heart being abstract proves it being a concept? That just sounds more like it’s referring to the soul more than anything.

 

[Theglassman12]

@UchihaSlayer96 @LephyrTheRevanchist your inputs here would be appreciated

 

[Iamunanimousinthat]

Literally what part about the heart being abstract proves it being a concept? That just sounds more like it’s referring to the soul more than anything.

How can a concrete object be stored in a heart or soul which are abstract notions?

Also, please be more careful with your wording. I was responding to Plank, and we were discussing on the abstract nature of Star seeds. Don't take what I said out of context. I never claimed that star seeds are concepts because hearts are abstract.

 

[Iamunanimousinthat]

But for any new mods this is my concentrated argument:

To summarize, Glass and Planck, claimed that star seeds fitting the requirements of Type 1 concepts does not prove that they are concepts.

As agreed with Planck (for the most part), the definition of concepts are: "An abstraction that gives objects in reality their form".

Star seeds are birthed by the Galaxy Cauldron, the source of everything in the cosmology. look here for the galaxy vs cosmology distinction

Star seeds become everything: living things, stars, planets, celestial objects, etc. no matter the shape, size, or name. Even non-physical beings come from star seeds.

Star Seeds are called stars and possibilities by Guardian Cosmos, who also calls them stars here and here. This can also be interpretated as star seeds creates stars and possibilities.

Queen Serenity states that star seeds are stored inside the heart, an abstract notion.

As clear as day, we know that star seeds gives objects their forms.

But Plank has shown doubt on whether they are abstractions. I am arguing that because they are stored in the heart, and are called possibilities or create possibilities, and create non-physical beings and are stored within non-physical beings, that star seeds are not concrete objects.

 

[Theglassman12]

Being called Possibilities doesn’t make them concepts, Possibilities can also mean alternate futures or events, nothing about this has any ties to concept. Also I don’t care if you’re responding to Planck, I’m still gonna respond if you’re making a ridiculous claim with no backing whatsoever

 

[Iamunanimousinthat]

Being called Possibilities doesn’t make them concepts, Possibilities can also mean alternate futures or events, nothing about this has any ties to concept. Also I don’t care if you’re responding to Planck, I’m still gonna respond if you’re making a ridiculous claim with no backing whatsoever

At this point, I think you are doing it on purpose. How many times do I have to tell you to stop taking what I said out of context?

I never said that because they are called possibilities that means they are concepts. I said, that because they are referred to as possibilities, found in side someone's heart, and give form to non-physical beings and would also be within non-physical beings, that they are abstract and not concrete.

Can you actually answer my question:

How can a concrete object be stored in a heart or soul which are abstract notions?

You keep dodging it and making strawmans.

 

[Theglassman12]

You keep highlighting them being possibilities as an argument for them being concepts, I’m not taking what you say out of context, how about make a better argument for star seeds being concepts in the first place.

You act like fictional franchises somehow can’t have something abstract be held when things like FMA have a philosopher stone be comprised of souls and yet its physical. It being a concrete object means jackshit here, so again make a better argument than just repeating the same point.