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Rule Violation Reports (New forum)

Damage3245 said:
I don't know if a perma-ban was the best choice here; but Darth creating sockpuppets to try and circumvent that ban definitely is not a good sign on his part.
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Yes, but he has been a member for several years, and we just instantly banhammered him permanently without letting him even say anything in his defence, so I can understand if he got desperate from that.
 
Moritzva said:
I can agree with that. A punishment was certainly necessary, and the initial report I made was with the intent of discussing what would be reasonable.

Him making sockpuppets in this case, while not great, does make some amount of sense - being banned permanently without trial and seemingly without any way to defend yourself may inspire erratic action, after all. I'd be willing to let that slide given the circumstances, and just judge him on what he did individually.

Overall, I don't think permanent bans without discussion should be handed out so liberally and without discussion. His comment was inflammatory, but still, due process.
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Thank you for being reasonable.
 
So, given our initial overreaction, would it be fine if we reduce @DarthSpiderr 's ban to 2 or 3 months instead?
 
Antvasima said:
So, given our initial overreaction, would it be fine if we reduce @DarthSpiderr 's ban to 2 or 3 months instead?
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I'd prefer we unban him first, let him make a comment in his defense, and then see - as well as let some of the original people involved, such as Abstractions, comment. No need to rush.

Edit: It's possible it may take Darth a bit to respond when unbanned, given that he was... well, banned and all. That being said, hopefully he notices this, and a message can be left on his wall in the case of him checking out his blocked account.
 
Okay. I will unblock him then. Let's wait to see what he has to say.
 
I have also left notifications on his forum and wiki message walls.
 
Perma ban may have been a bit much, I unfollowed right after making my post so I didn't see that. I'd definitely still say he deserves a hefty ban, though, but I suppose he should get to defend himself.
 
Well, I personally do not think that he was sufficiently insulting for anything beyond 3 months, and probably less.

Anyway, let's wait for him to notice the notifications that I left him then.
 
If somebody knows him via Discord, you can inform him there as well.
 
I don't know what to say in my defense. I was very impressed with Antvasima's words, thank you for temporarily unblocking me to let me say something in my defense. Of course, I was quite rude, because this is my real reaction, and if this offended anyone, then I apologize. I only apologize to representatives of transgender people, if there were any.

However, I really don't understand why on a power level wiki you would write the gender you identify yourself with. It's strange at least because it affects abilities in battles, because there are characters with sexual manipulation that only affects a certain gender. Otherwise, I have no idea why such is needed in the character profile on THIS site. I’m just used to the fact that on other forums where I sit, they don’t give a ban for such statements, such as ACF. It's really funny that for such violations they give an eternal ban, and not a temporary one. And judging by the comments above, if I had been on the site not for several years, but for example 1 weeks, I would probably have been permanently blocked, and the question of shortening the ban would not have been open. I don't like this kind of policy. It just took away all the desire to sit on this site, even if I was unblocked right now.

Also, I did not know that the word gender in English does not mean sex, because of the translator, in Russian it sounds a little different. I wrote one thing, but the translator gave out another. I did not understand what is gender and what is sex. Perhaps even now the translator distorts this.

I created a second account because I was interested in reading what they write in the threads where I sit, because I'm used to watching these discussions. The Russian power level community, it should be said, quite hates calculations, and can only accept calculations with kinetic energy at most, and only if there is an emphasis on it, so I'm more interested in sitting here (Even though the calculations are abused, seriously, sometimes they overestimate results). And also, I wanted to create profiles of several characters in some universes in the future. But I wasn't going to post in the threads anymore (Probably), at least not if it was related to the characters I wanted to profile on the site. Because I've lost all desire.

In general, I don't know. Do what you want. This is not a situation where words can be disputed so that I can explain what I wanted to say. Everyone understood what I meant. I don't care how long the ban will be. Once again, thanks for unlocking. I have nothing more to add. And for the future, I know that only I am to blame for this situation.
 
But I see no reason to apologize or make excuses for the joke about the Abrams tank, only for insulting the rule. Because this joke does not violate the rules, I did not directly offend anyone in it. The humor may not be the funniest and very black, but it doesn’t violate anything, I didn’t directly offend anyone in a joke.
 
I have to be a bit skeptical about you not understanding gender & sex because you used one of the most common transphobic strawman points of what transgenderism is, along the lines of "What if X character identifies as a tank for their gender."

You might view this as just a joke, but do you really not understand how hurtful this could be towards transgender individuals by insinuating that their experience is equivalent to a far-fetched delusion? You can't claim not to intend offense to anyone with this or make the even more ridiculous claim that you didn't cause any offense to anyone with it.
 
Well, we added the new standards as a combination of Fandom's policies regarding the issue and a recent site policy thread, in which some transgendered members of our community stated that Fandom's policies do not go far enough and that they felt deeply offended by them, so we tried to show them consideration in this regard.

https://community.fandom.com/wiki/Gender_Identity_Guidelines

https://vsbattles.com/threads/a-pos...ections-in-our-character-profile-pages.140756

We tend to ban new members more easily because if almost the first thing that they do is to stir things up, they are usually trolling.

Anyway, it seems like cultural differences are the reason for the rule violation here, and DarthSpiderr has apologised, so I would personally be fine with a 1 month or 2 months ban.
 
Antvasima said:
Anyway, it seems like cultural difference are the reason for the rule violation here, and DarthSpiderr has apologised, so I would personally be fine with a 1 month or at most 2 months ban.
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Sorry, but DarthSpiderr has blatantly not apolgized for their actions with this post: "But I see no reason to apologize or make excuses for the joke about the Abrams tank, only for insulting the rule. Because this joke does not violate the rules, I did not directly offend anyone in it. The humor may not be the funniest and very black, but it doesn’t violate anything, I didn’t directly offend anyone in a joke."

I would be in favor of a longer ban sentence than that.
 
Damage3245 said:
Sorry, but DarthSpiderr has blatantly not apolgized for their actions with this post: "But I see no reason to apologize or make excuses for the joke about the Abrams tank, only for insulting the rule. Because this joke does not violate the rules, I did not directly offend anyone in it. The humor may not be the funniest and very black, but it doesn’t violate anything, I didn’t directly offend anyone in a joke."

I would be in favor of a longer ban sentence than that.
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Well, I am still very uncomfortable with playing thought police in an overly draconian manner.

But what do you have in mind?
 
Antvasima said:
Anyway, it seems like cultural differences are the reason for the rule violation here, and DarthSpiderr has apologised, so I would personally be fine with a 1 month or 2 months ban.
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He did not do this, actually. He effectively doubled down on what is essentially an attack helicopter joke, there's hardly any reason to afford leniency.

Antvasima said:
Well, I am still very uncomfortable with playing thought police in an overly draconian manner.
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A year for a blatantly transphobic comment is hardly draconian. I initially set the permaban with the idea it would have some discussion and it would be lowered afterwards which may have not been the best, but 2-3 months is incredibly lenient for the subject matter.
 
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Damage3245 said:
Sorry, but DarthSpiderr has blatantly not apolgized for their actions with this post: "But I see no reason to apologize or make excuses for the joke about the Abrams tank, only for insulting the rule. Because this joke does not violate the rules, I did not directly offend anyone in it. The humor may not be the funniest and very black, but it doesn’t violate anything, I didn’t directly offend anyone in a joke."

I would be in favor of a longer ban sentence than that.
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I apologized for the part where I cursed at it, but not for the joke. Because she didn't directly offend anyone.

This is already ridiculous, with this method, anything can be thrown off to insult the feelings of someone.
 
Abstractions said:
He did not do this, actually. He effectively doubled down on what is effectively an attack helicopter joke, there's hardly any reason to afford leniency.
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Well, we have to accept that not everybody will agree with us, and cannot permanently get rid of them if their cultural standards do not align with our own.

For example, I have read reliable PEW Research statistics that state that the majority of all Muslims in the world strongly disapprove of homosexuality. So by that logic, if I had been homosexual, should I have banned most Muslims in this forum, or if I had been Muslim, should I have banned most homosexuals? Or for that manner, since I am mentally disabled and have half-Jewish ancestry, should I ban all Germans and Austrians because their relatives helped to exterminate my relatives and disabled people in general? Where does it end? It doesn't make any sense as a practical solution to me.

Being overly harsh in our treatment towards those who disagree with us will eventually give rise to massive, likely violent, counterreactions and societal upheavals that could easily have been avoided.

The only way to actually create greater harmony, genuine tolerance, and understanding in this world between people from different cultural backgrounds and ideologies is to not condemn them, but rather have calm and polite conversations with each other to get past our differences. For example, I used to be afraid of Jihadists and Islamists several years ago, but then I took the time to have indept respectful conversations with Muslims that I know either IRL or online, and I have massively calmed down in that regard.

Again, most of this world is not remotely similar to California in terms of sentiments, and we cannot expect it to automatically conform and submit to them. The only way to get anywhere is to accept that in a democratic society, there will be many sentiments that we find offensive around, but we cannot play a constant civilisations-spanning game of trigger-happy whack-a-mole because of it.
 
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Banned them for a year
 
Damage3245 said:
A one year block as Krukov suggests up above should be fine.
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One year would have seemed more suitable if he had used a slur as a generalised insult or stated that he genuinely hates all transgendered people. He didn't do anything nearly that severe as far as I could tell.
 
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Well, we cannot ban everybody with personal views that we find personally offensive. Please read through my last two long posts above about this subject.
 
Antvasima said:
Well, we have to accept that not everybody will agree with us, and cannot permanently get rid of them if their cultural standards do not align with our own.
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So if it was culturally acceptable where someone lived to spout slurs unapologetically, you wouldn't advocate for their permanent removal? That seems a bit odd to me.
 
Abstractions said:
So if it was culturally acceptable where someone lived to spout slurs unapologetically, you wouldn't advocate for their permanent removal? That seems a bit odd to me.
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No, I just don't want us to expect everybody to agree with and never offend us or our personal views in the slightest. It can easily be reversed in the other direction depending on which group that is currently in charge, and will only worsen the problems long-term, rather than bring us forward as societies. Please read my two long preceding posts carefully in order to try to understand where I am coming from.
 
Colonel_Krukov said:
You may have freedom of speech, but that doesn't give you a "get of jail free card" to be racist, transphobic etc.
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We cannot jail or otherwise severely punish all people in this world who have any views that are very offensive to us. Barely anybody would be left afterwards.
 
If he had been homophobic or racist, I suspect that not much leniency would be shown in this case. Just because his offensive insult was transphobic doesn't mean we should just dismiss it as cultural differences.

If he had apologized genuinely in his earlier post, then I would have been more forgiving and suggest a shorter ban term but he effectively doubled down on his stance and refused to apologize, so I see no reason to be lenient here.

So by that logic, if I had been homosexual, should I have banned most Muslims in this forum, or if I had been Muslim, should I have banned most homosexuals? Or for that manner, since I am mentally disabled and have half-Jewish ancestry, should I ban all Germans and Austrians because their relatives helped to exterminate my relatives and disabled people in general? Where does it end? It doesn't make any sense as a practical solution to me.
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You can't compare the actions of someone's ancestors to what a user does while on our forum. It's just so incomparable I don't know why you would even ask this hypothetical.
 
Antvasima said:
No, I just don't want us to expect everybody to agree with and never offend us or our personal views in the slightest. It can easily be reversed in the other direction depending on which group that is currently in charge, and will only worsen the problems long-term, rather than bring us forward as societies. Please read my long preceding posts carefully in order to try to understand where I am coming from.
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Ant, we are a community that is open to everyone, but if someone makes comments that affects another portion of our community, that access the person was granted can be freely revoked, you either appeal to our rules and standards or you leave. It is not our obligation to willfully accept hateful speech just because of cultural differences.

Antvasima said:
We cannot jail or otherwise severely punish all people in this world who have any views that are very offensive to us. Barely anybody would be left afterwards.
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Freedom of speech does not equate to freedom from consequences for said speech, we don't have to punish people outside our community for their views because that's not our jurisdiction, but if you are coming into our community then you are accepting that we can punish you for saying such things.
 
Well, I am mainly worried about that western society as a whole is turning increasingly prone to punishing people or even destroying their lives for their diverging viewpoints, not remotely all of which are even bigoted or particularly offensive, instead of trying to talk things out despite getting upset about the other party being an insensitive jerk.

The only alternatives to peaceful dialogue is either armed conflict or Orwellian totalitarian police state oppression, so as I mentioned earlier, I think that we keep pushing and pushing towards a very extreme counter-reaction, and I am very concerned about that trend.

That said, you are correct in that DarthSpiderr broke our rules, and I seem to be outvoted regarding how severely he broke them.
 
For what it is worth, I think you need to focus on separating your perspectives on the entire western society as a whole from how moderation is done on this forum. We can't make our judgements for rule-breaking based on how our punishments for ruler-breakers might upset geopolitics and cultural wars.

That's just overcomplicating things to a needless degree.
 
Antvasima said:
Well, I am mainly worried about that western society as a whole is turning increasingly prone to punishing people or even destroying their lives for their diverging viewpoints, not remotely all of which are even bigoted or particularly offensive, instead of trying to talk things out despite getting upset about the other party being an insensitive jerk.
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I understand your concerns, but we aren't ruining lives here. We are running a powerscaling community. It isn't that deep.
 
Damage3245 said:
For what it is worth, I think you need to focus on separating your perspectives on the entire western society as a whole from how moderation is done on this forum. We can't make our judgements for rule-breaking based on how our punishments for ruler-breakers might upset geopolitics and cultural wars.

That's just overcomplicating things to a needless degree.
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Well, I want to take my personal responsibility to try to mitigate the trend on my end, as Fandom is a major cultural influencer in this world, but it seems pretty hopeless.
Abstractions said:
I understand your concerns, but we aren't ruining lives here. We are running a powerscaling community. It isn't that deep.
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Well, everything is connected, and you just used the standardised slogan "freedom of speech is not freedom from consequence" above, which usually hasn't made any sense in the contexts where it has been used elsewhere to rationalise genuinely destroying the lives of political opponents, as then it doesn't even mean freedom any more, it is just mob rule "guilty until proven innocent" judge, jury, and executioner punishments for wrongthink.

But yes, we have to try to maintain the peace in this community. I would much prefer to have it be a place where very different kinds of people from all over the world can learn to get along though.
 
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