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Riordanverse Tier 6 Revisions

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There are tens to hundreds of feats in a verse. As Versus said, there is some room for interpretation.

@Regis And while you claim I laughed off everyone, I replied to everything. You wonder why I keep repeating myself, it's because you are repeating the same argument which is why I am forced to give the same response.

The volcano feat, I'm not sure it can be directly compared to the previous eruptions. Even if the previous eruptions are caused by Typhon stirring, Percy's eruption awakened Typhon to the point that he was able to destroy he volcano and escape.
 
RegisNex1232 said:
Okay, Versus, why do you think this is an outlier? Keep in mind that this is the sky feat done by Annabeth and is used to scale everyone but side characters.
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Percy was nearly killed and put into weeks of recovery by a 7-B explosion and he is a child of the Big Three. To me knowledge most of his other feats don't really come close to the 6-C one. And as far as I know, Annabeth's only big feat is the 6-C one.

So yeah. Someone who is literally stated and shown to be far superior to Annabeth struggles to survive lesser explosions and has less AP even when going all out.
 
Not enough to justify using an outlier as a general feat. Especially not here.

Your replies haven't varied beyond "6-C is usable, ignore any mental willpower required and the subsequent lack of feats on that scale ever again". When the volcano feat is pointed out, you go to "it woke up Typhon, it must be strong". When people are hurt by twisting their ankles or with less force than a 6-C would show, you just handwave it as inconsistencies.

You have yet to say anything meaninful that I could consider to be relevant to the points made against 6-C.
 
Exactly what people have said and agreed with save for Spino. But when this is brought up over and over, there is no real acknowledgement.
 
The 6-C calc is usable as there is nothing wrong with the calculation.

Poseidon literally said strength is required. What he meant as you needed the courage to take the Sky.

We tend to scale characters to their highest showings unless proven otherwise.

The previous eruptions were not powerful enough to awaken Typhon. It is an extremely reasonable assumption that Percy's eruption is more powerful than the previous ones. You are basically saying my point but not the reasoning, to make it seem like I'm unreasonable and randomly move the goalposts.

I assume by ankle you mean Annabeth got hurt by a high fall, and that is 9-B. Unless you flunked your physic exams you should know that terminal velocity limits the speed of a falling object that it can only be 9-B. It is inconsistency because I believe most of the people here would agree that Annabeth is not 9-B. Again you say that I "hand wave" it as inconsistency without my reasoning in order to make me look stupid.
 
"We tend to scale characters to their highest showings, unless proven otherwise"

So I could go ahead and scale Master Chief to a 7-B feat because it'a technically his highest showing and mathematically valid? That's not how this works. Context behind a character matters.
 
That's not the same case. Master Chief's 7-B feat is like tens of tiers higher than 9-B, similar to the outliers listed on the outlier page I said above. According to the outlier pages only the most extreme cases are considered invalid.
 
Except for the assumptions and context.

He also specified courage and will as necessities, don't know why you would gloss over that.

Not when it's inconsistent.

Typhon broke free over time, helped along by eruptions, it was hardly a one and done deal. And when Kep pointed out that per Percy and the news it doesn't compare to older ones, that's glossed over as well?

  • Annabeth falling in Mark of Athena, earlier in MoA noting her lack of special powers
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Courage and will are necessities, never denied that. You would need strength to lift the sky, but you have to have courage and will to do such an act.

It was explicitly said that Percy's explosion called Typhon to awake.

And that fall is definitely 9-B. No falls on Earth surpass 9-B. So either it's PIS or you think that demigods are 9-B.
 
Right and when Artemis talks about spiritual strength that's also handwaved away?

Making him more awake then before is hardly something to consider when the actual eruption isn't that impressive.

There we go with PIS. No actual consideration for anything else, no actual analysis, just PIS.
 
Spiritual strength is needed, but so is physical strength.

The actual eruption was not not impressive, and it was the eruption that directly awakened Typhon.

It is either PIS or 9-B. That's the result of my analysis.
 
Yes, which is why we ignore it as additional context for no reason and assume it was all physical.

Which isn't a feat indicating higher AP. Waking up Typhon is not an AP feat you can calculate.

Anything involving PIS without considering other options is barely analysis.
 
I didn't assume it was all physical. By "spiritual strength" the book means you have to have the will to lift the Sky. Even if you had the physical strength, you can only take the Sky under free will. That's what Poseidon meant. I've explained to you a lot of times and you simply ignored and said "lol, spiritual strength".

No, it isn't. The volcano eruption cannot even be calculated, but we know that it was more powerful than previous eruptions that failed to awaken Typhon

The other option is that demigods are 9-B. High falls are 9-B, why is it so hard for you to grasp that? If it is not PIS, then it means demigods are 9-B. What other options are there? Twist the feat to make it seem 7-B just to be consistent?
 
This isn't the case when Artemis refers to it in the context of lifting amd holding the sky, warning off Percy as she is worried that he may not be able to survive. Try to actually read the book before straight up ignoring things.

Kep did a pretty good job up above, and trying to handwave off the feat as somehow above other comparable eruptions because of Typhon is disingenuous when Hephaestus doesn't mention if other eruptions had a similar effect on him.

There is the idea that since the demigods don't have such impressive durability feats apart from Percy or Jason (and by impressive I mean not 7-B and augmented by powers), we don't scale durability to AP? We use different feats to rate them separately, so that it is more consistent overall? But that wpuld require a lot of analysis, which you don't seem interested in.
 
This is going into ad naseum, whats the final count for support and against?

Honestly Regis, if there is a debate for an outlier in riordan verse, it aint here.

It would be with the gods.

Also, regarding the 7-B thing VersusJunkie, PIS

There, I solved it.

It wasn't that hard either. Riordan is very inconsistent sometimes with both plotting and scaling.

As we seen mostly with Gods vs Typhon or when Artemis soled Atlas or how even a possesed Luke still struggled beating percy despite his power boost.

Or how earlier books extrapolated Percys power with water and how he was even able to fight Ares very briefly.

Hell, it is not like we haven't seen this in myth before too. Herecules lifted the sky before too.

There is Hazel's feat, Jasons feat etc.

I should make a CRT tho regarding the gods.

Alot are missing scans for immortality, AP, the power of the verse still needs to be updated, there is more books to add and analyze etc.

Which..isnt the point of this thread sadly but whatever.
 
The demigod/magician ratings are way more problematic due to the general difference in portrayal by Riordan and fan assumptions.

PIS doesn't explain away zero 6-C feats or showings apart from a specific interpretation for lifting the sky. "Solving" it by handwaving it isn't actually fixing anything. Especially when Riordan has been mostly consistent with general threat levels, despite what people say.
 
RegisNex1232 said:
Snip
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Spino had no problem with the calc though for Percy?

Jasons calc was approved?

Why are you still debating this?

Do we really need to make another thread for this or should we just count up for/against and move on?

Why not change this to the calc discussion because if there is 'really' no island level feats, then the calcs will need to be revised by calc members.

Very rough count, but against

Against 3: (Kepekley I think, Regis and Versus)

Fine with it 4: (Weekly, Myself, Dargoo, Spino)

I will be fine with downgrading the verse if the calcs have an issue, but right now we have two feats, both accepted that are 6-C and so far fine.

Also, if you seriously think that is worse then the gods, who have mostly tier 6/5 feats and one uncited tier 4 feat and maaaybe another if you count the God of the Sun..creating the sun

Which is either the titan prometheus or the helios. I don't know what to tell you man.

The gap between even 5-B to High 4-C is thousands of times, Regis

This isn't rocket science. If you are going to complain about outliers, at least complain about ALL of them.

TLDR: If it is an issue with the calc, make another thread with the feats and discuss there.

There is not 'no 6-C feats', Regis. Just because you don't like them doesn't mean they dont exist.

Now they could be high ends, fine. But that isnt for you to debate, it is for the calc group.

The feat isn't an outlier, the 7-B percy thing is PIS.

Done with this thread.

I am fine with helping downgrade the verse if it comes down to that. I won't be salty about it lol.
 
He didn't make one for Percy at all, so why would you use Jason making a storm to scake to Percy? Different power sets make scaling tenuous.

Also ignoring Risci, Rocker, Friendly and Kal, while Dargoo didn't actually say much beyond asking for a conclusion. That would make it 7-3 if we're keeping score.

This is beside the point. If you want to revise them, go ahead. It still has zero influence over this thread, so there's no need for this derail.

And for the record, this is that other thread I made, you can see it explained in the OP.

The rest is just pointless when knowledgeable people are actually calling out the flawed calcs for not fitting the verse as seen in the story and calling everytging PIS is extremely dishonest.
 
RegisNex1232 said:
Also ignoring Risci, Rocker, Friendly and Kal, while Dargoo didn't actually say much beyond asking for a conclusion. That would make it 7-3 if we're keeping score.
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Thanks man!

Ill ask Dargoo his opinion.

But yeah, 7-3.

Do a final tally for me would ya mah daling.~ ; )

Also, it would be nice to ask the people you said as well as kep final thoughts so we can either

A. Move on

B. Make another thread.

Fair?
 
My personal thoughts are that we haven't defined any new ratings for anyone really, since it's been a constant debate over whether Annabeth lifting the sky is an outlier or not. We need to do that in order to actually carry out any revisions.

For now, we'll stick with this thread until others say otherwise.
 
It's hardly unquantifiable when no one has tried and made a blog about it. And feats done with powers can't be used to scale everyone as not everyone can control water/fire/wind/etc, making it impossible to scale.
 
Well demigods cannot look at their true forms, but I'm pretty sure that's just durability negation as they can avoid dying by closing their eyes.

Jason can also create huge storms that exhausted Gaea.
 
I don' get how difficult this is to understand: a single 6-C feqt made from a specific interpretation that is never backed up throughout the series by any other feat is an outlier. No quibbling about high ends or anything else, it is an outlier. And powers =/= physical stats, making any scaling impossible, especially when people have different power sets. How would you even scale Jason's storms to Percy's waves or Leo's fire? Let alone the esoteric ones like charmapeaking and transformations.
 
According to our Outlier page only the most extreme cases can be rendered unusable, like Captain America being 4-B. 6-C is backed up by Tier 7 feats. It's just one unquantifiable volcano feat that knocked out Percy. The other Tier 7 feats were normal to casual.
 
Charmspeak is hax and transformations is a higher or whatever it takes to harm giants for his combat forms since Frank overpowered Alcyoneus as an elephant, harmed him easily enough as a bear, and his dragon form was admitted by him to be his most taxing form (thus likely his strongest).

Whatever tier Jason's power's are (I think he had a 6-C calc), it scales to Percy's physical durability since he gets hit by it and Thalia's (which should be of a similar level), the twin giants were also wounded by it and both Percy and Jason could physically harm them and each other, Nico and Thalia would scale as Big Three Kids, Hazel also harmed Alcyoneus, Percy is stated to be the most powerful demigod so matching Jason is practically a given, Percy also uses his water to harm other Big Three kids and immortals, Frank is the physically strongest of the 7, Jason did about the same damage to Porphyrion with both lightning and a crappy sword etc etc. There is plenty of evidence to scale powers to physical ability aside from Leo and maybe Nico.
 
It doesn't. You'll have to prove that he used 6-C attacks in that fight, which becomes more nonsensical when a Pegasus KOs both of them with 2 kicks. Along with CB/IG weapons hitying above their weight class (like when Zoe arrows could hurt Atlas, Percy vs Hyperion, Jason vs Krios, etc) and no other demigods really tanking such attacks without any real downsides or even diaplaying that level of power in the series. 6-C is extreme in the verse when Tier 7 feats require focus and the stronger demigods get hurt by attacks on that level or lower.
 
We do not have a profile for pegasus therefore we do not know its AP. And in my opinion if we do make one for pegasus, it would scale to whatever durability the demigods are at. Unless you can find a feat that proves the pegasus is Tier 9 or 8 or 7 or whatever.

We all know arrows, bullets and sharpened weapons are extremely OP in fiction. Jason destroyed Krios with his bare hands, which means they are comparable in AP. Note that Krios was likely not at full power though. For Percy vs Hyperion, Percy used a hurricane to fight Hyperion. The hurricane is only Tier 8 as I calculated, but since it is Hyperion's weakness, it was effective nevertheless.
 
Again, using tropes doesn't erase the fact that repeatedly, throughout all 10 books and various spinoffs, demigods are rhreatened by stuff far lower than 6-C an do not have any feats easily replicable near that level without abusing their powers.

Hyperion isn't weak to hurricanes, that is just fanon. He's just temporarily surprised andkept off guard by the hurricane, like almost anyone else would be in that fight. He still pushed Percy back and it required a severe effort in sustaining that hurricane and satyr magic to beat him.
 
When Sally shot a giant point blank with a standard shotgun in TLO, it was sent flying down the street. What shotgun does that? Based off the laistrygonians that Percy and Tyson fought in SoM, it was 8+ feet tall and pure muscle at least.
 
It was sent 5 metres, not the full street, only to be killed on Nico's sword. Given that most monsters are pretty durable and that it wasn't mentioned that it had drawn blood, it's fair to say that it's a combo of Rick not knowing how strong police shotguns are and a simple understanding of physics, where a lot of force knocks them back by a lot.
 
So your argument is to just handwave it away as the writer didn't know and that it is inconsistent, just after saying that it doesn't excuse anti feats when Spino did the same?
 
That and demigods being hurt by forces below 6-C or even Tier 7 are two different things, as most monsters are tougher and stronger than most demigods (as they should be as they are meant to kill demigods). Which demigods not named Percy or Jason can easily take down a drakon, a Minotaur or a Cyclops without trying? Percy isn't a bog standard demigod and trying to scale a bog standard demigod like Annabeth is to a 6-C feat that is way above all her other showings and then using that to justify 6-C demigods is the worst possible reasoning, bordering on wank.
 
AnonymousBlank said:
When Sally shot a giant point blank with a standard shotgun in TLO, it was sent flying down the street. What shotgun does that? Based off the laistrygonians that Percy and Tyson fought in SoM, it was 8+ feet tall and pure muscle at least.
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For starts, those books are full of exaggeration such as Percy insisting Blackjack is lightspeed. Any and all distances, sizes, and anything else mentioned are somewhat suspect out of principle. Unreliable narration is most definitely a thing for these books.

Also everything sends everyone flying in Riordanverse. Percy should be adopted by Zeus for how many battles include a paraphrased version of, "Percy flew through the air after being hit".
 
I might have worded it incorrectly, but the hurricane was literally said to be dousing Hyperion's flames.

Tropes and inconsistencies should be used to explain such cases, otherwise they should be downgraded to 9-B (bullets are 9-B, knives are 9-B and high falls are 9-B).

Monsters are not Tier 9, Tier 8 nor Tier 7, so I don't know what you're talking about, using monsters to prove 6-C is wrong.
 
Which is not a weakness of anyone. Unless you think fire being put out by water is weakness. He was still strong enough that they had to turn him into a tree rather than deal any actual damage.

Not when this is consistent for demigods like Annabeth and others on her tier.

Again, total bullshit when you haven't exactly rated any of the monsters apart from the Minotaur. When you can prove this without just relying on scaling from Annabeth, then it might be credible. Right now it's just you having a conclusion and trying to make the facts fit it rather than the other way around.
 
RegisNex1232 said:
Which is not a weakness of anyone. Unless you think fire being put out by water is weakness. He was still strong enough that they had to turn him into a tree rather than deal any actual damage.

Not when this is consustent for demigods like Annabeth and others on her tier.

Again, total bullshit when you haven't exactly rated any of the monsters apart from the Minotaur. When you can prove this without just relying on scaling from Annabeth, then it might be credible. Right now it's just you having a conclusion and trying to make the facts fit it rather than the other way around.
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So you want to rate demigods at 9-B. Took you really long to admit it, huh? Doubt anyone would agree with that, even those who think 6-C is an outlier.

The Minotaur's rating comes from scaling to regular demigods like Clarisse. It hasn't got feats on its own.
 
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