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Riordanverse Tier 6 Revisions

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Misunderstanding people, regardless of whether it's deliberate or unintentional, is dishonest and stupid to repeatedly do over a single thread.

Literally everyone but you agrees with 6-C being an outlier, this is simply pointless stalling for no reason.

That can be easily fixed, since it is strong enough to throw cars across a field. Just because it doesn't now doesn't mean it can't/shouldn't scale.
 
"Not when this is consustent for demigods like Annabeth and others on her tier."

How many interpretation can this have?

"Literally everyone but you agrees with 6-C being an outlier". Exaggeration. Sins, Archdemon and Weekly don't agree (not yet counting people who gave kudos to our messages). While there is indeed a few more people that agrees compared to not, it's not like only I think they are 6-C.

Throwing cars is rather casual IIRC. Regardless the Minotaur likely scales to the rating of the demigods, unless it is consistency harmed by/struggles to perform Tier 9 stuff.
 
That powerless/less physically inclined demigods like Annabeth don't scale to a nonsensical, one time 6-C feat which they never reach again in the following books? Where are you getting 9-B?

Who have altogether not contributed much beyond "I disagree". While multiple people, including admins do agree and outnumber those who don't. Aka you've been stalling this for no real reason other than spite.

Again, when the Minotaur has its own feats and was beaten twice by a top tier, there's not much it can scale to.
 
"Literally everyone but you agrees with 6-C being an outlier"

That's incorrect. I agree with Spino. I mean, there's not much to disagree with him.

Downgrading the demigods would be pointless. We have Percy and all fighting Minor Gods yada yada yada, I don't even know why this is whole debate a thing. Having lower tier feats do not disqualify your higher tier feats.
 
Except that still leaves a 7-4 in favour of agreement that it is an outlier. More people agree, including admins knowledgeable with the verse. Spino has done nothing but stall this for no reason.

Wanked profiles and inaccurate ratings might be a good point, you know. Not that it seems like you care, given that you've also been ignoring context and such to try to justify 6-C demigods.
 
"Spino has done nothing but stall this for no reason."

I believe this is known as an "Appeal to Motive" Fallacy. My motives, even if true, mean nothing in a discussion.

"The Minotaur has nothing to scale to."

Then why are you using it to claim that 6-C is wrong at all?

And if we're counting knowledgeable members (according to the list), it's just 3-2, a considerably smaller gap, with Regis and Friendly never helping out much in the verse before. 5 experts have yet to comment.
 
@Archdemon, dunno if you've been here at all, but when things stall this stuff gets put to a vote and the one with more votes is the one used.

@Spino

Yet you ascribe nonsense to me in an attempt to discredit the argument, aka abusing that fallacy yourself.

I am using it to point out this: Again, total bullshit when you haven't exactly rated any of the monsters apart from the Minotaur. When you can prove this without just relying on scaling from Annabeth, then it might be credible. Right now it's just you having a conclusion and trying to make the facts fit it rather than the other way around.

When you claimed that we can only scale them to the demigods, when in reality you never even tried. And trying to justify 6-C anything off scaling off a single feat which is never matched again and is an outlier is literally the worst possible scaling anyone can do.

Friendly and I count, otherwise we could easily count out you and anyone who agrees with you for not putting forward anything that wasn't refuted already and it would be 7-0.
 
There is this thing called power scaling, and the Minotaur scales to demigods, as it lacks feats on its own (except some casual car-throwing) other than fighting demigods. How long have you been here, not knowing power scaling? It is for you to prove that the Minotaur is just Tier 9, 8 or whatever, rather than the other way round.

What the ****, never said Friendly and you don't count. And according to your logic everything that someone disagrees with is "refuted", so all our posts are trash. And it seems that you aren't putting forward anything. You already have 2 logical fallacies in one post, and other bullshit like "lol, you are saying nonsense, you are debunked".
 
Also I agree with Archdemon, a vote count sounds like an appeal to popularity. Quality>quantity. I've been here for over a year, and I'm fairly certain only unanimous or nigh-unanimous revisions are applied (which is why 6-C was applied btw, as nearly everybody agreed). For example it is literally just Matthew and Ever that disagrees with Ares being weakened in Wonder Woman, yet we are unable to perform the revisions.
 
RegisNex1232 said:
Ddunno if you've been here at all, but when things stall this stuff gets put to a vote and the one with more votes is the one used.
Click to expand...
I'm roughly two days younger than Spino in this wiki, dude. It's not because your here since February 2016 that you know more than any of us here. Besides, what Spino just said is mosly what happens.
 
How is car throwing not good enough as a feat? Like, sure it can easily kill demigods but it also got fodderized by Percy twice, so it's not going beyond Tier 8 as a minimum. And it's actually on you to prove that the monsters are Tier 6 when they have no feats on that level. Maybe when you can do that without a faulty feat we can talk.

Man, do you even know how to debate properly? Seriously, despite being a calc member you can't say anything beyond repeating what you've said before over and overbefore, ignoring any flaws pointed out simply to peddle your argument. You've been committing logical fallacies and failures all over this thread. Maybe bring more than easily ignored bullshit next time please.
 
And you haven't posted much quality posts, instead only complaining that we should take 6-C as a legit feat and ignore all context around it and the lack of feats on that level that can scale to their physicals.

Again, you haven't refuted any of the reasoning posted here and have been stalling for nothing
 
Hmmn what? Since when did I say the Minotaur was Tier 6? I personally made the Minotaur profile and put it at Tier 8. It got fodderized by Percy exactly.

To speak of logical fallacies, you used like several ad hominems, a dozen of appeal to motives and a considerable number of appeal to popularity. Now you are using what is known as the "Fallacy Fallacy" - even if I used logical fallacies (which I didn't), it doesn't mean I am wrong. Why do I have to repeat what I said before is because you are bringing nothing new to the table, so I have to repeatedly reply the same thing. Also, how good am I is at debating has nothing to do with the Riordanverse. Stop throwing blatantly false accusations and derailing.
 
Again, less bullshit and more quality posts. You have yet to show why we should consider the sky feat as a legit lifting strength feat beyond "we just should" and when shown low feats you've called it PIS or discarded it.
 
RegisNex1232 said:
And you haven't posted much quality posts, instead only complaining that we should take 6-C as a legit feat and ignore all context around it and the lack of feats on that level that can scale to their physicals.

Again, you haven't refuted any of the reasoning posted here and have been stalling for nothing
Click to expand...
Indeed I am saying we should take 6-C as a legit feat, but not without reasoning. You are trying to make me look stupid by pretending I did not say anything else other than "lol, they are 6-C". It is quite literally said that it requires strength, and the demigods regularly fight nerfed gods. Khione has a Multi-Continent level feat for freezing the Mediterranean that somehow wasn't accepted just because it seems "iffy" that it is so high; and Leo was able to counter her attacks. Jason can create huge storms that held back Gaea herself.
 
RegisNex1232 said:
Again, less bullshit and more quality posts. You have yet to show why we should consider the sky feat as a legit lifting strength feat beyond "we just should" and when shown low feats you've called it PIS or discarded it.
Click to expand...
I've discarded Tier 9 feats as PIS, because they likely are? Unless you think that the demigods should be 9-B, which no one, even those who think 6-C is an outlier, think is reasonable.

You are simply calling 6-C an outlier because it is higher than what you think the demigods are at. Not an argument at all.

To speak of quality posts, 90% of you posts are just throwing blatantly false accusations, using ad hominem and appeal to motive fallacies, and saying bullshit that helps nothing.
 
It alao requires courage and spirit, and Annabeth explicitly was said to have held it up due to that big factor. Leo hasn't shown anything on that scale, so why would he scale? ED doesn't count towards physical stats, which do not match 6-C at all throughout the series.
 
Likely is not good enough, when you've been dodging this by turning it on me. Less bullshit please.

So confirmed proof you aren't reading my posts. It is an outkier for being far beyond 7-B feats, the next closest, requires literal interpretaion and ignoring in verse statements, and is never, ever, replicated or matched by anyone else phyaically and is done by someone with unremarkable strength.

You have yet to provide proof of anything or make an actual argument. Please don't post more useless posts again.
 
Alright, let's say you are correct, those lower feats are not PIS. So 9-B demigods? That's ridiculous.

The Sky feat requires courage and spirit, yes, how many times do I have to explain? A person would have to have strength to lift the Sky, it's just that strength is not enough, as they need to have the courage to take the Sky by free will.

I might have worded it wrongly, but I meant you are calling 6-C an outlier merely because it is a high feat, which you are admitting right now.

In fact 6-C isn't even the strongest feat in the verse, it's just that the higher feats are too extreme (now that is an outlier, not 6-C which is quite close to Tier 7). Stop pretending like it's an outlandish feat matched by none other. Only the most extreme cases can be called outliers. At least that is what the Outlier page says, go make a content revision thread on that if you disagree.

  • Leo Valdez was able to counter and overpower an ice attack by Khione, making the surrounding area warm. Khione's mere presence causes freezing rain despite being kilometres away. I calculated it to be High 6-A, and the math is correct, it's just that it's too outlierish.
  • Percy Jackson, while being completely overpowered by Atlas, shook off several hard hits. And Atlas was able to gain the upper hand against Artemis. Sure, Artemis was nerfed in that scene, but in the exact same scene she created a constellation, which was calculated as Moon level. If the concept of outliers didn't exist at all, Percy would definitely scale to 5-C.
  • Kepekley23 said that calculating the KE of Nico's sub-relativistic attack would be High 6-A, though I don't know the source of that.
  • Minor gods have true forms, which they convert themselves to pure energy. Demigods being killed when looking is simply durability negation rather than them being not strong enough, as they can survive by simply closing their eyes.
  • Not to mention other unquantifiable stuff like Percy fighting Ares, wrestling Iapetus, Jason killing Krios with his bare hands yada yada yada.
 
Or maybe their durability don't scale to the AP of their CB/IG weapons, which are explicit in their effectiveness against monsters?

It's never been purely a strength feat, which is what you've been treating it as. So why should we take a calc with that premise as accurate when the premiae is flawed?

6-C isn't close to Tier 7-B, despite you trying to make it look otherwise. Stop with the non-sequiturs.

Fire melting ice doesn't suddenly make that fight 6-C/A, when Khione was untouched by the end and ran away. Again, powers have never marched durability and you can't match storm powers to water or fire when they haven't matched each other.

Again, atip with the derails. We don't scale them to each other and we're not starting now.

So making up bullshit? Nice try, but no.

Pointless. No one scales to that so we aren't using it.

Unquantifiable by definition means it can't be rated, making it difficult to use. So why would we go with boasts and trickery as a way to scale AP?
 
So you believe their durability is 9-B?

You have to have the courage and free will to take the Sky, but you rely on physical strength to actually lift it. Is it so hard to understand lol?

It is literally just 1 7-B feat that knocked out Percy, the other ones were all casual to normal. It's not like they re consistently weaker.

Khione made the surrounding freeze, yet Leo's attack made it not only back to normal, but warm and toasty. How do you think it doesn't scale is beyond me.

We don't scale Percy to 5-C because it is an outlier, not because it is wrong.

I don't know how Kep calculated it, but he said if we took the KE of the sub-rel feat it would be 6-A. Tell Kep he's making up bullshit.

Unquantifiable means it can't be rated indeed, but the Olympian have Tier 5 feats even when extremely weakened and nerfed. It doesn't make sense for Ares, Atlas or anyone to be Tier 7, let alone Tier 8 or 9.
 
I am undecided because right now there hasn't been a proper analysis of everyone's durability. Some like Percy or Jason are naturally gifted in this area and some like Leo are basically immune to certain things. But by and large, there hasn't been much supporting even High 8-C, given that most demigods are fodder to stuff like drakons or the Minotaur.

Right, which is why Artemis said something else entirely and we should ignore for no reason. Making the choice is one thing, but spirit is also required to hold it up, this isn't difficult.

Again, making hurricanes and other feats have actually exhausted people, despite claims to the contrary. Percy was tired after using his powers at points in MoA, just like Jason. These feats are hardly casual like you want us to believe.

Leo didn't melt everything around him, it was still covered in snow as the fight dragged on. He was merely warming the air around him, but he didn't melt everything, including the frozen Hunters.

It is wrong because they have generally been outclassed by titans and Gods. That is not how scaling works, which is why we don't scale.

When I see it in a blog and the reasoning given I might consider it. Right now bringing up hypotheticals is derailing the thread.

Arrogant Gods and Titans playing around =/= they're all 7-B or that demigods should scale.
 
Drakons and Minotaurs don't have their own feats, and we power scale them to demigods, not the other way round.

You have to have spirit to keep on holding the Sky without giving up, which is why Annabeth was able to keep on holding it for an extremely long period of time.

The glacier feat was a smack. Nico splitting the ground was when he was 10, and it hardly exhausted him. Hazel was young when she blew up an island as well, and likely died from oil inhalation.

Leo warmed the air which was froze by Khione. Temperature changing can be calculated. And ice takes time to melt, you know.

Titans and Gods are ******* Tier 4. Percy is capable of tanking hits form nerfed Titans and Gods, which are 5-C scaling to Artemis's feat.

Ares might be playing around, yet his attack after when he got stabbed by Percy was said to make Hades's earthquake seem like a minor event, which I calculated to be 6-C.
 
Drakons are explicitly the size of buses. The hell they don't have their own feats. They and the Minotaur also hopelessly fodderize most demigods who don't have that great feats, so you'll have to show how impressive demigods can be without twisting the facts.

Yet that would be covered under strength as well, but you seem to want to pick and choose when to use or ignore the gods.

The glacier feat was summoning water, like he did at a bridge. Again, hardly casual when it was a last ditch effort. And again more assumptions despite evidence to the contrary. Maybe get some proof that she'd would have survived it.

Maybe try to calculate it then.

He has barely survived it, and neither Titans nor Gods actually show that level when fighting against demigoda.

Which he didn't use on Percy.

So nothing but pointless derails or bringing up stuff to calculate/rate.
 
Dunno why you double-posted, but never mind.

Minotaur fodderizes fodder demigods, yes, when did I deny that?

What? The gods quite clearly say that they needed strength to lift the Sky and courage to take the Sky. Why is that so hard to understand.

What does summoning water and last ditch effort have to do at all? It was a last ditch effort because he was being overwhelmed by the ghosts doesn't mean it wasn't casual. Say the "evidence to the contrary" please. There is no proof either way whether Hazel would have survived or not, but that feat cannot be used as an anti-feat for 6-C.

Khione changing from, let's say 30 degrees to 4 degrees and Leo changing 4 degrees back to 30 degrees requires the same energy (those are some random numbers but just to explain to you). No point calculating.

Artemis, after fighting Atlas, created a constellation (5-C).

It was kind of like a shockwave/explosion that moved the water, and Percy tanked it. Also pretty sure Ares kick > Ares shout.
 
And you're using a 6-C feat, which was heavily debated and rejected by multiple people in here, to try to scale from Annabeth -> Monsters -> Percy. You can surely see the problems in trying to do this?

They needed all three aspects to do so, and said strength is never shown again in the series so why should we use it?

You have zero proof that Nico making that crack or Hazel using all her strength are somehow 'casual'. And acting as if she would have survived it is dishonest, when she had no way out abd knew she would die doing it. It is also way below 6-C.

Except unlike Khione's instant freeze, Leo does a slower veraion where he doesn't fully melt the snow, so it would still be lesser than hers.

Again, demigods don't scale to gods or Titans. Why even bring this up as if it has any value?

Assumptions, which when compared to when he was treating the fight as a joke before getting hurt, are totally unsupported.
 
6-C is an outlier, we already went over this.

Percy was hurt very badly by an eruption that should be around 7-B (with result further reduced by surface area), and Jason's weapon exploding left him in a bad shape (calculated at 7-C).
 
Kaltias said:
6-C is an outlier, we already went over this.

Percy was hurt very badly by an eruption that should be around 7-B (with result further reduced by surface area), and Jason's weapon exploding left him in a bad shape. (calculated at 7-C).
Click to expand...
If I kept track, counting you it would be 5-9 in favor of the downgrade. Should we make another thread or just proceed with it? This thread has gone on for long enough, and neither Regis or Spino seem to want to back down.

I sort of want to propose the compromise of 'At least 7-B, possibly 6-C'
 
Even tough I agree with the downgrade, popularity is not a reasoning.

Though, meeting in the middle like sins suggested is fine.
 
Ricsi-viragosi said:
Even tough I agree with the downgrade, popularity is not a reasoning.

Though, meeting in the middle like sins suggested is fine.
Click to expand...
Well, it may not be. I get it is an Appeal to Popularity fallacy. But lets be honest with ourselves. In this case,it might be a good benchmark to either compromise or keep talking. And talking has been going on for...hundreds of replies That said, if it goes to a solid downgrade, I will help with the profiles since this mainly effects the 7.
 
I don't agree with a possibly 6-C at all. In my view it straight up shouldn't be there. It's an outlier.
 
Kepekley23 said:
I don't agree with a possibly 6-C at all. In my view it straight up shouldn't be there. It's an outlier.
Click to expand...
Well, it would have been nice to know your opinion earlier since this thread went on for so long lol. I dont agree, but I can help with profiles for revisions. I just want this to be over with it is going into ad naseum.
 
Well, it may not be. I get it is an Appeal to Popularity fallacy. But lets be honest with ourselves. In this case,it might be a good benchmark to either compromise or keep talking. And talking has been going on for...hundreds of replies That said, if it goes to a solid downgrade, I will help with the profiles since this mainly effects the 7.

No offense but "appeal to popularity" is how this site works. Each and every rule for determining these things outside of 100% normal physics is a rule determined by staff and then enforced. Appealing to authority and popularity is the only way anything gets done and anyone who thinks otherwise is kidding themselves.

In addition to the thread at large, clandestine low-ends with no assumptions should absolutely be factored in when discussing characters, especially if they're multiple tiers below the high-ends. They shouldn't automatically dismiss high-ends but failures often tell you more about the verse than success.
 
It depends on which side we support.

If we're on the more popular side, then we're going to say something like "democracy is how we always do things here'.

If we're on the less popular side, then we're going to try to say that the number of people doesn't matter.

Pretty much a cherrypick party.
 
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