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Rick Sanchez vs Black Hat

Half_Shiny said:
I will make my case.


He can manipulate more tech, this has been shown. Please read the rest of the convo




This is an ability Rick has used once and when given all the prep time he need on multiple occassions, he consistently never uses this. On top of the fact Rick said it was the last true fortune. Then to rap it all up he said

"So just you use these to win fights?

I don't use them. People who use them to avoid death are already dead.."
Showing direct evidence via the character himself, they would not do what you say.


Let me round up all the wincons that have made and have not been refuted
Rick: Ice and disintegration
BH: Sealing him inside his own tech, Mind Manip, transmutation, fusionism

even then BH has tech manipulation has not been refuted with the evidence provided.
Click to expand...
In the example of technology manipulation you gave, even if we accept that it controls the phone, etc., or the television, what about my other argument;

Rick's saying that this is the last possible cookies does not mean anything, this was already discussed in the probability manipulation section opened for Rick and it was decided to add it to the profile, in short, this is still possible by considering Rick's state at that time, even if it is not, I have not checked whether it is written in the rules, but it should normally be written that Rick should have full access to all his equipment with preparation time.


As for the death crystals, what Rick is saying is that there's an ordinary meaning or expression that Morty gives to it that can't be true, and Morty himself lives with the possibility that he will die with Jessica when he uses it, and this refutes what Rick said and we understand that it's an exaggeration.

So rick can use it just like morty did, so when you say this, it's completely wasting your time.

Your other premise is the perception that the black hat can seal him to his own device. First of all, as I said, Rick can use his precognition and clairvoyance to change fate and put himself in a position to defeat Black Hat, and even if he doesn't, Rick can use a particle beam to make it look like he has suddenly destroyed himself and then bring Black Hat into the game, and then shoot him with the beam and neutralize him.


If you say something like "no, he starts the battle invisible" you're wrong because that kind of reasoning is logically impossible because you can't claim that he starts the battle invisible without an achievement.
 
Half_Shiny said:
My guy, please read. Because other than the last one it is all of them.
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Its literally just him mildly affecting Tv Screens and Cameras. How the hell does that mean he can affect Ricks high technology?
Half_Shiny said:
The fortune cookie idea has not been used in any situation where he had time or reason to use it. Looking for, beating, anything with Rick prime. Could reach farther with Dinos, Pope, etc.
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Its PiS. Thats like asking why Rick didnt use his insant death shit or his other op stuff.

Its not easy to write a story with a strong protagonist. He also didnt want to defeat the Dinos in a fight, he wanted to defeat em in wits
 
Half_Shiny said:
My guy, please read. Because other than the last one it is all of them.

best example is the one with a time stamp on the side


You want me to make a summary for something you are paying attention to instead of reading?

The death crystal idea is bunk because the quote I gave showed he straight up would not use. The fortune cookie idea has not been used in any situation where he had time or reason to use it. Looking for, beating, anything with Rick prime. Could reach farther with Dinos, Pope, etc. Then with Rick saying it was the last good fortune shows he might not have access to it
Click to expand...
I have answered all of these
 
This will be my last reply for a while I do apologize for that, I currently have things need to finish I hope ya'll have a good day no matter what we talking about.
Rockysbalboa said:
In the example of technology manipulation you gave, even if we accept that it controls the phone, etc., or the television, what about my other argument;
Click to expand...
are you talking about this?
Rockysbalboa said:
I hope that if there is a technology application in the style used by Evil mortyn to manipulate the technology that Rick has, he can only achieve this.
Click to expand...
Only technology that is on Rick's level can affect rick's tech? That is completely false. Here is an example. But not even going down that path since we have shown BH able to manipulate technology while there is no example given of him resisting something technology manipulation (that he didn't have to experience first).
Rockysbalboa said:
Rick's saying that this is the last possible cookies does not mean anything, this was already discussed in the probability manipulation section opened for Rick and it was decided to add it to the profile, in short, this is still possible by considering Rick's state at that time, even if it is not, I have not checked whether it is written in the rules, but it should normally be written that Rick should have full access to all his equipment with preparation time.
Click to expand...
No link to a thread, here it is. Yes it could happen but rules as written in SBA
"State of mind: In character, but will attempt to win the battle." In character. But in character he has shown to not use this at all. Despite this easily doing what you are claiming now to every conflict he has. He has not used them once despite literal decade of prep time against Rick Prime. If something else was a threat what makes you so certain that this is how will go if he has never done this before. Like you say later
"If you say something like "no, he starts the battle invisible" you're wrong because that kind of reasoning is logically impossible because you can't claim that he starts the battle invisible without an achievement."
The exact same argument could be made if not multiple times over against how he uses this prep time. Especially if the evidence state, in conflict he can do this but has never done so in any encounter.

Rockysbalboa said:
As for the death crystals, what Rick is saying is that there's an ordinary meaning or expression that Morty gives to it that can't be true, and Morty himself lives with the possibility that he will die with Jessica when he uses it, and this refutes what Rick said and we understand that it's an exaggeration.

So rick can use it just like morty did, so when you say this, it's completely wasting your time.
Click to expand...
Its much more straightforward. He was asked do you use it for combat, he says only people who avoid death do. Then we never see him use it ever again. Despite like said above, could easily use it at any time for any encounter. He has shown access to it at anytime but again he never uses them in any other conflict.
Rockysbalboa said:
If you say something like "no, he starts the battle invisible" you're wrong because that kind of reasoning is logically impossible because you can't claim that he starts the battle invisible without an achievement.
Click to expand...
Where is this even from? I was listing out all the wincons the two character have in this thread. Trying to the options for both character.

ShionAH said:
Its literally just him mildly affecting Tv Screens and Cameras. How the hell does that mean he can affect Ricks high technology?
Click to expand...
We are shown robots all thought the multiverse affect. Has Rick shown resistance to tech manip?

ShionAH said:
Its PiS. Thats like asking why Rick didnt use his insant death shit or his other op stuff.
Click to expand...
I asked you about the instant death thing and how it would work in verse, you hand waved it as PiS. Thus far near everything I have asked about for an explanation for from you has been PiS. Yeah very much starting to think this is a character thing since what has been listed

Weaknesses: "Rick is genuinely insane, alcoholic, has a serious drug addiction and is often reckless".

Yeah after being called PiS very much thinking it is this is not PiS and just the weakness above.

ShionAH said:
Its not easy to write a story with a strong protagonist.
Click to expand...
It ain't easy to write as strong protag. This isn't a defense in the slightest.
 
Half_Shiny said:
This will be my last reply for a while I do apologize for that, I currently have things need to finish I hope ya'll have a good day no matter what we talking about.

are you talking about this?

Only technology that is on Rick's level can affect rick's tech? That is completely false. Here is an example. But not even going down that path since we have shown BH able to manipulate technology while there is no example given of him resisting something technology manipulation (that he didn't have to experience first).

No link to a thread, here it is. Yes it could happen but rules as written in SBA
"State of mind: In character, but will attempt to win the battle." In character. But in character he has shown to not use this at all. Despite this easily doing what you are claiming now to every conflict he has. He has not used them once despite literal decade of prep time against Rick Prime. If something else was a threat what makes you so certain that this is how will go if he has never done this before. Like you say later
"If you say something like "no, he starts the battle invisible" you're wrong because that kind of reasoning is logically impossible because you can't claim that he starts the battle invisible without an achievement."
The exact same argument could be made if not multiple times over against how he uses this prep time. Especially if the evidence state, in conflict he can do this but has never done so in any encounter.


Its much more straightforward. He was asked do you use it for combat, he says only people who avoid death do. Then we never see him use it ever again. Despite like said above, could easily use it at any time for any encounter. He has shown access to it at anytime but again he never uses them in any other conflict.

Where is this even from? I was listing out all the wincons the two character have in this thread. Trying to the options for both character.


We are shown robots all thought the multiverse affect. Has Rick shown resistance to tech manip?


I asked you about the instant death thing and how it would work in verse, you hand waved it as PiS. Thus far near everything I have asked about for an explanation for from you has been PiS. Yeah very much starting to think this is a character thing since what has been listed

Weaknesses: "Rick is genuinely insane, alcoholic, has a serious drug addiction and is often reckless".

Yeah after being called PiS very much thinking it is this is not PiS and just the weakness above.


It ain't easy to write as strong protag. This isn't a defense in the slightest.
Click to expand...
Dude this scene you threw is an example of PIS feat and CIS feat in general and you distorted what I said I didn't say that only an app like evil mortynn has would manipulate rick so you made straw man fallacy additionally in the video you threw mr nimbus doesn't do it by directly manipulating technology the character can already control anything without being human or anything else so this is half truth fallacy you made. You also threw this example as resistance and if so I take back what I said before except straw man but I didn't say rick resisted the manipulation of technology there Rick literally didn't have the conditions he has now and usually he was only detained through hacking whereas here it's more vacuum anyway it still doesn't mean rick didn't win because we already know that rick can defeat him through cookies and death crystals even without using any weapon.


In addition, what you are talking about is the mood from the sba rules, which is funny in the sense that a character fights by putting all his/her being on the line without giving up on himself/herself, which contradicts what you are saying.

There are 2 explanations for Rick's inability to find Rick Prime and one is true and the other is theoretical

The theoretical part is that even though Rick prime has an infinite range due to the infinite different selves that Rick prime has made himself within all of eternity, he could not find Rick prime without filtering the possibility, and even though he did this, he could not reach him directly.

We understand from this that rick prime cannot be found in normal ways, this is also emphasized in the series, they met in that episode at that moment because the author wanted it and it was time.

The correct premise is that it's a PIS feat because Rick can easily catch him if he wants to by reversing the probability or any absurd ability he has (of course the reason they don't assume this is because of the first premise I just told you but that's a theory so we know it's a dirty feat) you can't talk back and forth about something that's a dirty feat so that's wrong and Rick can still easily take him out by analyzing information and scanning everything possible of the black line in preparation time.


I used the phrase "starts the battle invisible" for black hat not rick and you twisted it and made it meaningless

Straw man fallacy, in short, this is your 3rd fallacy.

What I want to talk about is that according to the previous arguments, BH can make himself invisible and get rid of Rickten that way. That's what I wrote in response to that and I said he can't start the battle invisible, please don't comment on things you don't understand.


Dude, don't you read what I wrote?

The reason for Rick's hyperbole there was that while Morty was using those crystals, he was drawing his destiny by moving into the future where he would die with Jessica, and what Rick said here is already refuted, and even if something written in the profile is possibly, if the people who add it indicate it in the versus thread, it becomes usable, so the use or not use you say does not work here.



I explained the invisibility thing


Anyway, you made 3 misconceptions and a few mistakes, I explained everything to you, please don't be so subjective.
 
Aolphl said:
Grace! Rick Sanchez won by a score of 7-2, I will add this to the profiles
Click to expand...
The grace period is 24 hours, you cannot instantly add the game.
When the thread reaches a valid vote count, a grace period of 24 hours will be acknowledged, starting when the final vote that resulted in valid vote count was posted. After this time period the match can be added, with proper format, to the respective characters' pages, or, for Tier 2 characters or otherwise locked profiles, requested in the Versus Addition Request Thread.
Click to expand...
 
If anyone still thinks black hat is beaten I don't hesitate to argue and even after arguing with so many people in the already ongoing rick vs bill cipher revision I think I won't be entering versus threads for a long time but it doesn't matter give me an opinion in the Bill vs Rick sanchez revision let's discuss
 
Meh, the arguments in favor of Rick are really poor, for one there's no real counterargument for BH just disabling his technology, for example, Rick's technology being "different" isn't much of a counterargument when generally we compare stuff by resistances and semantics, and if there's neither of those to properly elaborate on, then there's no real reason to claim it wouldn't work here, which greatly hinders Rick's options, secondly the OP didn't elaborate on how much knowledge they have of each other beyond merely confirming so, which can range from merely knowning the face of the target to knowning all their resources, strategies in-character and P&As.

PIS also isn't an excuse for a character not using the most of their resources, if they even have them or would go in-character out of their way to get them, in general if the usual portrayal of a character is not simply going all out then that's just their character (which as I recall it's the case here), not PIS. For a reason there's a separate page over this matter.

How much preparation time is given is also not detailed on, which is particularly relevant for a good portion of the gimmicky prep arguments for Rick.
 
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Anyway. It has been more than 48 hours since the thread was raised and a conclusion has been reached. I'll turn this off and add the results to the profiles.
 
You know I can ask for this match to be removed by being invalid if the above isn't debunked/handled, right?
 
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Whether or not you decide what is debunked and what is not debunked depends on your point of view. After Rockysbalboa replied to Half_Shiny, Half_Shiny did not reply to him again, in this direction, what Rockysbalboa said still applies, if you want to debunk something, don't stop, do it, but I don't think it will change the 7-2 score.
 
Generally when it comes to how things go around this site, it all depends on some further discussion than merely dismissing on whether something is "concluded" or not, especially if it's regarding new brought-up points. Half Shiny not replying in itself does not dismiss the points he has given, especially as I've already brought up such counterarguments to his post being poor.
 
Pretty sure to remove it you need quite some hard evidence that Black Hat stomps otherwise it wont work

Rick has wincons but so does Black Hat, it depends on your opinion on the matchup since vsthreads are generally subjective
 
ShionAH said:
Pretty sure to remove it you need quite some hard evidence that Black Hat stomps otherwise it wont work

Rick has wincons but so does Black Hat, it depends on your opinion on the matchup since vsthreads are generally subjective
Click to expand...
As said before, most arguments for Rick become invalid if what I've said before is true, so at best the match would have to be redone with more specific details on the conditions on the match, as that's also a concern that was not covered.
 
Bobsican said:
As said before, most arguments for Rick become invalid if what I've said before is true,
Click to expand...
Black Hats tech manip only worked on Cameras and mildly affected some Tvs which may not even be tech manip.

Unlike Black Hat Rick has enough Information Analysis to know everything about Black Hat but not only that he is known to go overkill on his targets.
 
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