Revising Tiamat (and possibly others?)

[RegisNex1232]

Based off a CRT about King Hassa, it was noted that Tiamat, the basis of scaling KH had little to support Tier 5-A as shown below. Given that, along with questions about revisions, I made a thread to discuss, for now only, what her tier should be. Others with faults as well may be added in later.

Tiamat Reasoning

Tiamat (Fate/Grand Order) - At least Large Planet level (Gave birth to the Earth itself and all of its life forms, her data provided BB's power and authority as a facet of the Earth Mother Goddess. Easily fought Ishtar, who can fire the concept of Venus with her Noble Phantasm, and Quetzalcoatl, who can easily bat Ishtar's attacks around like baseballs, although Quetzalcoatl was heavily weakened and half-dead during their fight. Her monsters are able to harm Kingu, who possessed the body and powers of Enkidu).

Why is the above not good enough? Firstly, she has never been shown to give birth to the Earth, only the life populating it. Providing BB power and authority is also indirect circular scaling as BB too is reliant on stuff likescaling to Tiamat and Gilgamesh, as well as a literal misinterpration of what the classification "Anti-World" means. Ishtar is no longer 5-A, and Quetzalcoatl is now even more unreliable as she now relies on scaling off 2 6-C/7-As (Ereshkigal, who is Ishtar's equal and Gorgon, who has no real feats as a goddess as she was being used by Tiamat then. Finally Kingu is also reliant on scaling from Enkidu, who scales from Gilgamesh who already has problems with how his NP is being interpreted.

We need a better evaluation and rating for Tiamat without circular scaling or faulty reasoning. What do you all think?

 

[Ozy_the_God-King]

I think Tiamat deserves 5-A and higher, due to the fact that she is a primordial being who was weed to make the planet and on top of that she was restraining herself, I wonder if she went all out without holding herself back she could reach stellar level. Quetz is inconsequential because her best np should be around 6-B with the statement of she could destroy Uruk city state but not all of Mesopotamia as stated Uruk is a city not a country.

 

[Matthew_Schroeder]

The justifications are already all on her Attack Potency. It simply also lists supporting feats.

 

[RegisNex1232]

You're giving unquantified stuff to support a shaky rating. What exactly has Tiamat done, that warrants her being at 5-A?

 

[Qliphoth_Bacikal]

I do really think her justifications need better reasoning. Having edited and looked over her profile a couple times, I felt this had to be done.

Not downgrade wise though cuz I didn't really think much on that even now.

 

[RegisNex1232]

If anything, a lot of the stuff needs to be rechecked for 5-A reasoning.

 

[Matthew_Schroeder]

An Earth Mother Goddess like Tiamat would at least be 5-B but 5-A because of Kiara's stuff

 

[Qliphoth_Bacikal]

That's what I mean, yes. Downgrade though not yet, but her feats, as you said, just needs to be looked at.

 

[RegisNex1232]

I mean so far all I'm getting is speculation and such. I would like to see the actual feats and work out her Tier rather than make arguments from a set conclusion.

 

[Wokistan]

From what I can tell she scales from Kiara.

How valid this is I have no idea since I don't really know anything about the verse. If Kiara is that strong due to her status as Earth Mother Goddess then sure, but if she just is that strong for reasons unrelated it seems shaky.

 

[Qliphoth_Bacikal]

Same. Just to note, Tiamat, and by extension anyone who happens to scale to her in any way, being downgraded is less of my concern.

If it does, sure...still like ancient milf. But if not, whatever also.

 

[Matthew_Schroeder]

Even if she gets a downgrade it would be at most to 5-B.

Another feat worth taking into consideration is Arcueid crashing the moon in Melty Blood

 

[RegisNex1232]

I'm not seeing much proof or evidence of anything.

 

[VoidGoji]

An Earth Mother Goddess like Tiamat would at least be 5-B but 5-A because of Kiara's stuff

Kiara's stuff is just an illusion/mindhax, ya know.

 

[TheUnshakableOne]

im confused. is this downgrading tiamat or upgrading her?

 

[RegisNex1232]

im confused. is this downgrading tiamat or upgrading her?

It is meant to clarify her rating, which is currently nebulous as the reasoning in the profile is very iffy.

Whether it upgrades or downgrades is not important.

 

[AguilaR101]

I don't know the context but why is that? Doesn't her attack animation show her growing larger than earth?, if that's supposed to be an illusion you need to provide proof and images of that being the case.

 

[TheUnshakableOne]

She "should" scale above BB who consistently has Planet level feats. BB just uses her data as a basis for most of her abilities. Also, "final ascensions" in Caster wavers interlude* kinda confirms they are a power up. Final Ascension Gilgamesh looks excatly like LMC, FMW/C, or "the Root" CCC EoG gilgamesh. We see that form of Gil fighting the 2nd to last form of Tiamat. Edit: Although i do not know what the wiki's stance is on Final Ascensions and Interludes are in Grand Order.

 

[WeeklyBattles]

Yes you would need to provide proof that her growing that large is just an illusion

 

[RegisNex1232]

Her NP description is this:

'It is a vortex of pleasure that melts all sentient beings, and digests their "life" in an instant. While in reality it all happens in an instant, but it feels like an eternity of pleasure. Regardless of how different the structure of a beings intelligence may be, this vortex affects all without exception. It is not a Noble Phantasm that is limited to affect only those on Earth. The damage increases if certain conditions are met. If the target is of the opposite sex, the damage increases. The more intelligent a being is, the more damage it does. As far as the setting and lore are concerned, the Servant who would be hit with the least damage would be Archer, and Gilgamesh would be damaged the most. (Extra material)'

You'll note a distinct lack of growth in size, as that property has only been seen in one person, Kingprotea. And scaling anyone to her is difficult since she's barely an antagonist in most appearances with actual feats in combat and her size growth is something that takes time.

BB has nothing that supports 5-A beyond scaling to and having an "Anti-World Noble Phantaam", which is dofferent from an "Anti-Planet Noble Phantasm". And you'll have to show that the Final Ascension arts mean anything beyond nice visuals.

 

[Matthew_Schroeder]

We have already debunked this ad nauseum claim of yours Regis.

 

[GalaxianAegis]

Is there any reason that we should treat Kiara's feat as an illusion? Does she use any other illusions typically for attacks or are there any attack descriptions that would lead to that conclusion?

 

[RegisNex1232]

When the description of said attack confirms it to be a mental attack rather than a physical one, and that there is no mention of any growing in size when using it, unlike other characters, then why should we take visuals over it? Taking visuals literally is how Matthew made a 5-A calc of Ishtar despite everything from NP description to actual feats indicating otherwise and it's pretty much the same here.

 

[Wokistan]

Okay but are the visuals consistently inconsistent or something? Games are a visual medium, and simply not mentioning something is not the same as something being contradicted.

The bigger issue from venus was that a concept doesn't really have mass or GBE so it can't be calced, not specifically that it was using an animation.

 

[Matthew_Schroeder]

Yes, Regis just fails to understand the difference between lack of a statement and a negative statement. Nevermind that Kiara's size is well explained in the freaking text.

He is asking Fate to be treated with extreme negative bias.

Also Anti World Noble Phantasms are planet level.

 

[RegisNex1232]

It is contradicted by the lack of any physical feats and such on that level in the game itself.

 

[Wokistan]

A contradiction would be something like a character supposedly on that level struggling to do something way weaker, not her feat just being the only one of its type. It's possible that it's an outlier (I wouldn't know) but that seems to be thrown into question by how other files have tier 4 things.

 

[VoidGoji]

We have already debunked this ad nauseum claim of yours Regis.

ya mean "ignore the fact that the feat is a ******* illusion and not a physical feat"? Because thats literally what you are doing.

 

[TheUnshakableOne]

some information was left out on Kiara's description.

"The reason why this attack's power, visuals, and scale are so huge is because reincarnated Kiara is a being similar to Saver.
People who devote their life to bringing salvation to Sattvas (living things) are referred to as Bodhisattvas. People who have attained moksha (libertation/release) and become Buddhas are also Bodhisattvas. A Bodhisattva is a god of universe scale and power, and can easily manage things on the scale of the Solar System.
Buddhism has a sense of scale of the universe that stands out from that of other religions. There are concepts like Nayuta (1060) and "The Infinitely Vast Number" (1068) which were created to represent the scale and size of a Buddha.
The entire universe is the domain of a Buddha. In Buddhism the universe in considered to be made up of three billion solar systems (a great trichiliocosm). A galaxy comprises of 3000 solar systems (a small trichiliocosm), and 1000 small trichiliocosms make up a trichiliocosm.
This actually aligns with the real scale of galaxies, galaxy clusters, and super clusters.
India had this stuff figured out over 2000 years ago? Holy crap!
In the initial design phase of the game I submitted some paperwork describing this Noble Phantasm. I thought there would be no way that this gets by CERO untouched, but surprisingly enough it did."

Also, i do have scans of BB being consisent planet level (On the affect of earth). Also, Final ascentions being a power up i can provide proof for. But i am curious what the wiki's stance is on interludes.

The link ot Fate/extra material in english is here . just CTRL + F then type in Kiara until you find the description.

 

[VoidGoji]

Also, Anti-World doesn't mean Anti-Planet in Fate, man.

 

[RegisNex1232]

Anti-World =/= Anti-Planet. One is a classification for targeting full blown planets, while the other refers to specific realities that Nasu has given a class to, like Reality Marbles, the layers on the World and so on.

 

[Matthew_Schroeder]

ya mean "ignore the fact that the feat is a ******* illusion and not a physical feat"? Because thats literally what you are doing.

It's not. It just has mental properties as well as physical ones. Also calm your tone, be respectful.

If anything Tiamat should be upgraded as Kiara is only an infantile beast while Tiamat is a far more powerful one.

 

[TheUnshakableOne]

Fate/Extra Material states that EX rank noble phantasms are anti-planet.

 

[TheUnshakableOne]

Fate/extra material specifically states "Anti-planet" and not anti-world' Fate strange fake does the same thing with gilgamesh. His Enuma Elish is labled anti-world, but his fight with Enkindu showed that it is anti-planet.

 

[Matthew_Schroeder]

Considering we have outright statements that Anti World Noble Phantasms can destroy the earth were it not for Gaia's defense mechanisms, you are wrong there too

 

[RegisNex1232]

CCC Kiara is different from FGO Kiara in that FGO is weaker as unlike CCC as one is compared to a solar system being in Saver and the other isn't. CCC Kiara was also being restrained by hax from BB and her Sakura Five to allow the protag and their Servant, buffed up by hax, to beat Kiara. There's nothing supporting legit scaling to Kiara in say physical stats.

 

[Apeironaxim]

Let me tell you the story of a woman.
"Aah, how lovely----"

Said by a woman with a child in her arms. Humanity are nothing but immature beasts. They feed on greed, drowning on greed, and their greed thawing upon the ephemerial reality. What if someone, someone who has a huge love have their immeasurable love gets rejected?

She happily attained enlightenment and emancipation on each of her own fingers. She, Sessyoin have reached ahead of Heaven and Paradise.

『Aah, how lovely---- Dying just longing for me, these 7 billion people』

Such devilish whispers that drowns on carnality. In the hands of her Celestial Body, helds the baby.

I'm not very well versed in Nasuverse stuff, but hopefully this helps in some way.

 

[GalaxianAegis]

By contradiction, I believe they are asking for something specific in the material that makes the feat illegitimate. If we need more context, feel free to bring everything you've got.

Anti-World Noble Phantasms could have varying ratings though. A NP like Hanging Gardens is certainly not exactly comparable to Ea. The the term Anti-World has other implications in the Nasuverse besides straight potency.

 

[Wokistan]

What I would like to know concerns whether Kiara is strong and an also is an EMG, or if she's strong because she's an EMG. It doesn't seem like Tiamat would immediately scale in the case of the former.

 

[TheUnshakableOne]

Foxtail CCC manga, and the game CCC are completely different. Fate/extra material even states multiple times the sakura five was reduced to only 2. Meltlilth and Passionalip.