Revising Tiamat (and possibly others?)

[LSirLancelotDuLacl]

There's the in-game FGO profile and the Mats information.

And I don't see what's your point, when "Although the scale of the existence of the Pleasure Deva that was born once on the moon is superior to Beast III" can't get more explicit. This doesn't refer to Alter Ego, lessened Kiara just because it comes from her profile.

Not to mention this isn't talking about the Heaven's Hole Kiara, just Kiara from CCC in general. You know, the same Kiara that was already peeling every layer of the soul, mind and body as she desired at age 14 through the Cyber World? So a software developed by a genius spiritron hacker who even inflitrated the Moon Cell by hacking Taiga's Data and inserting herself in. Of course that compared to back then, her powers would just get boosted as a Beast.

So the only thing you have is a quote that doesn't even compare to Heaven's Hole, but to CCC Kiara in general, versus a direct comparation of Moon Cell Kiara versus Beast lll.

 

[LukaSolosYourVerse]

There's the in-game FGO profile and the Mats information.

Both of which are technically profiles.

And I don't see what's your point, when "Although the scale of the existence of the Pleasure Deva that was born once on the moon is superior to Beast III" can't get more explicit. This doesn't refer to Alter Ego, lessened Kiara just because it comes from her profile.

I believe I explained this earlier on in the thread, but Alter Ego is literally just massively weakened III/R. "Beast III" doesn't automatically refer to III/R because both III/R and Alter Ego are different forms of Beast III. The specific version of Beast III being referred to is just made more clear by the fact that the statement is only present on one of the 2.

Not to mention this isn't talking about the Heaven's Hole Kiara, just Kiara from CCC in general. You know, the same Kiara that was already peeling every layer of the soul, mind and body as she desired at age 14 through the Cyber World? So a software developed by a genius spiritron hacker who even inflitrated the Moon Cell by hacking Taiga's Data and inserting herself in. Of course that compared to back then, her powers would just get boosted as a Beast.

The ability is possessed by all of Kiara's forms though, why wouldn't it be referring to heaven's hole as well? Heaven's Hole is literally just one of CCC Kiara's forms, so Beast III being > CCC Kiara in general would still include HH.

So the only thing you have is a quote that doesn't even compare to Heaven's Hole, but to CCC Kiara in general, versus a direct comparation of Moon Cell Kiara versus Beast lll.

Statements from the actual event (Which haven't been addressed yet) alongside the aforementioned statement* vs A single contradicted statement from the mats*

Do recall the other bit of evidence I linked already. https://imgur.com/a/R7gPvrB

The actual event itself says that Kiara became identical to her CCC self even before she began her transformation into a beast thanks to Zepar quite literally binding their fates together.

 

[RegisNex1232]

It really doesn't? Same destiny =/= becoming Heaven's Hole, given that this Kiara becomes a Beast and gets new skills while being below HH Kiara per mats. Almost every translator who has read these texts agree on CCC Kiara being above from Beast Kiara in terms of power and scale. I mean by events Goetia > Beast Kiara in terms of power straight from her mouth, so unless you're suggesting some screwed up scaling where a planet buster at max is > a solar system level being in Saver, I think that CCC Kiara is still > Beast Kiara.

 

[LSirLancelotDuLacl]

Yes they both are, so specify next time please.

I don't see how that proves anything or makes anything more clear. They would be comparing, specifically, Alter Ego Kiara who "technically" falls under the definition of Alter Ego because... they put it in one profile and not in the other, instead of full Beast Kiara, for no reason. Not to mention that I decided to look for the translated profiles and they both have Nega-Saver, so what are you talking about again?

Because that skill could easily refer to normal Kiara and Heaven's Hole Kiara, so using it as a proclamation of one's superiority over the other is nebulous at best compared to the blatant "Beast lll isn't on the same level as Heaven's Hole but she has this skill the other didn't have" marred in your eyes because one profile has it, the other doesn't, which is also untrue unless some unneeded edit happened which you would need to prove.

No? It says that Zepar set her off on the same Destiny as that Kiara, but considering she has skills the other doesn't have, is a Beast while the other wasn't, and her transformation had nothing to do with the Moon Cell or Andersen, there's quite a lot that's not the same. Zepar doesn't even have Second Magic, he can't enact it nor do something like "bind fates together", that's just flowery language. What he did have was information from parallel worlds which he used to affect Kiara and turn her into what she is now, then she became so much more and much worse than he ever hoped.

 

[LukaSolosYourVerse]

It really doesn't? Same destiny =/= becoming Heaven's Hole, given that this Kiara becomes a Beast and gets new skills while being below HH Kiara per mats.

And yet Beast Kiara possesses the skills of her CCC self alongside her new ones, alongside being shown to have access to Heaven's Hole as a Beast as well. The mats bit i've already addressed twice now.

Almost every translator who has read these texts agree on CCC Kiara being above from Beast Kiara in terms of power and scale.

Argument from popularity, I don't really care about what a bunch of unnamed people think unless they want to explain how i'm wrong themselves.

I mean by events Goetia > Beast Kiara in terms of power straight from her mouth, so unless you're suggesting some screwed up scaling where a planet buster at max is > a solar system level being in Saver, I think that CCC Kiara is still > Beast Kiara.

I'm actually suggesting the opposite; Goetia would become solar system thanks to scaling off her.

 

[TheUnshakableOne]

Weird question is Kingu = or > Enkindu? Where does he rank at in AP? Where do the other demon god pillars rank at in AP?

 

[RegisNex1232]

Right, while still being below the scale of CCC Kiara. She just got some hard counter Saver skills. The mats keep saying this, I don't see what is so difficult to understand.

Well, given that they were the ones translating the profiles you read, I very much doubt that you have the right idea given everyone disagrees with your line of thought.

Which makes no sense. Goetia has no feats or hype on that level, this would be wanking for no reason.

 

[LSirLancelotDuLacl]

Kingu is, at least, on Enkidu's level as he uses the body of the living Enkidu and not just a Servant summoned and lessened vessel. Demon God Pillars are, in general, above most Servants.

But that's inconsequential to this so, let's not derail.

 

[TheUnshakableOne]

Kingu is, at least, on Enkidu's level as he uses the body of the living Enkidu and not just a Servant summoned and lessened vessel. Demon God Pillars are, in general, above most Servants.
But that's inconsequential to this so, let's not derail.

Kingu, by doctor roman, is stated to rival the demon god pillars, and Kingu with the Holy grail (at least i think he had the holy grail at that time.) managed to hold tiamat for only a brief moment. That is a physical strength feat yes?

I am also collecting some other scans right now. For example Final ascensions by Ell melloi's interlude are actually a power up, and Gilgamesh needed it to finish oof (or* help finish off) Tiamat (post concept of death.) Which final ascensions gilgamesh has an eerrie resmblence to CCC end of game gilgamesh. Tamano No Mae and Kin also transformed into their final ascensions to fight the demon God pillars later on in the Solomon chapter.

There is also Planet level feats, and statements for Goetia and he needed prep time achieve those and that was using humanity as a fuel.

Tiamat also was sealed off because "She had the potential to create another world." Which i am currently digging through for more scans, but i got a bulk of them which i will upload to imgur to provide later. it may not be today or this week but late next week.

 

[TheUnshakableOne]

Note: During Tiamats awakening seen when we see Corrupted Ushiwakamaru she states "Only the light bands covering the heavens can rival mother now. Doy you have such a noble phantasm?"

Note 2 edit: Caster Gilgamesh says "She is on a completely different level than the demon gods you've fought before."

Note 3 edit: Tiamat is still bounded by some sort of seal, and not at her full potential right after she awakens.

Note 4 edit: Quetzalcoatl was confident that her noble phantasm/authority would rival the Mage Kings band of light, and be capable of disparging the black mud sea. However, Tiamats transformation into her 2nd form which is larger. She is confident that even with the combined might of her, and the other 2 goddesses authority they wouldn't be able to even scratch her.

 

[LSirLancelotDuLacl]

The thing is that Enkidu's Ea, both as Servant and Alive, is tiered off Gilgamesh's Ea. Likewise, Gilgamesh's Ea is based off it being an Anti World Noble Phantasm, which is a name that denotes that it has more to do with hax and has never been shown affecting anything on the size or level of The World, and the Ea from when he was alive is based on his Origin form in CCC, leaving those justifications to just turn into a constant circle without a true start.

The fact that Quetz couldn't have beaten Tiamat even at full power and with the help of all other mesopotamian gods and her being compared to the bands of light are some of the main indicators for a more accurate rank. That said I didn't remember the "create another world" one so it'd help to see the original japanese text and the translation. But keep in mind Tiamat was pretty much planning to supplant humanity, or maybe all beasts on earth, with her Lahmu and spread her Chaos Tide to the whole world, so that could be what they meant.

As for Goetia, he didn't need to kill humans to reach the level he has, he needed it to accumulate enough energy to time reverse the entire planet to it's original genesis. Even if time hax, that's a feat way above in scale to anything from Tiamat.

 

[LukaSolosYourVerse]

Yes they both are, so specify next time please.

That comment was originally directed at someone who knew what I was referring to already.

I don't see how that proves anything or makes anything more clear. They would be comparing, specifically, Alter Ego Kiara who "technically" falls under the definition of Alter Ego because... they put it in one profile and not in the other, instead of full Beast Kiara, for no reason. Not to mention that I decided to look for the translated profiles and they both have Nega-Saver, so what are you talking about again?

Not "technically". Quite literally weakened III/R. And yes, why would a statement specifically on the profile of one version of a being refer to a stronger version of the same being despite not being on said version's own profile? And them both having Nega-Saver isn't relevant when the entire reason this discussion exists is because Alter Ego's specific description of it has that extra statement in it exclusively.

Because that skill could easily refer to normal Kiara and Heaven's Hole Kiara, so using it as a proclamation of one's superiority over the other is nebulous at best compared to the blatant "Beast lll isn't on the same level as Heaven's Hole but she has this skill the other didn't have" marred in your eyes because one profile has it, the other doesn't, which is also untrue unless some unneeded edit happened which you would need to prove.

Why wouldn't the statement extend to CCC Heaven's Hole, exactly? Both CCC and Beast have access to the form after all. Like there isn't any reason to assume the statement was only referring to base.

And I believe the actual mat book pages were already linked up here earlier.

https://imgur.com/a/EfV4AvW vs https://imgur.com/a/MlBWQaf

Notice how Nega-Saver's description in III/R's profile lacks the final sentence that Alter Ego's version has. This sentence is the one regarding CCC HH.

No? It says that Zepar set her off on the same Destiny as that Kiara, but considering she has skills the other doesn't have, is a Beast while the other wasn't, and her transformation had nothing to do with the Moon Cell or Andersen, there's quite a lot that's not the same. Zepar doesn't even have Second Magic, he can't enact it nor do something like "bind fates together", that's just flowery language. What he did have was information from parallel worlds which he used to affect Kiara and turn her into what she is now, then she became so much more and much worse than he ever hoped.

Ok fine conceding on this last bit for now.

 

[RegisNex1232]

Kingu is, at least, on Enkidu's level as he uses the body of the living Enkidu and not just a Servant summoned and lessened vessel. Demon God Pillars are, in general, above most Servants.

But that's inconsequential to this so, let's not derail.

Not really, since Kingu is also on Tiamat's profile for scaling.

 

[LukaSolosYourVerse]

The mats, as i've already said, state that exactly once, and not even in the stronger Kiara's profile. The exact opposite of that is stated as well under Myriad-Colored Stagnation to boot.

That's still an argument from popularity and irrelevant to whether their interpretations of the info are factual or not sooo

Which makes no sense. Goetia has no feats or hype on that level, this would be wanking for no reason.

The entire reason this discussion is happening is because Beast Kiara herself hyped him above her, so saying he has no hype on that level goes against the existence of this convo. The actual argument here is whether said hype is coming from a planet level being or a solar system level one.

 

[RegisNex1232]

Tiamat only has feats for making life forms, I'm not sure where this planet creation stuff is coming from given that it wasn't why she got removed to the Sea of Imaginary Numbers.

 

[RegisNex1232]

Mats don't exactly repeat stuff over and over again. MCS doesn't say anything beyond elaborating her hax where she devours charmed souls in the name of salvation.

You haven't exactly proven your argument given that other statments and feats contradict it.

Beast Kiara is not > CCC Kiara, so why would you take that to wank Goetia to 4-B?

 

[TheUnshakableOne]

Regarding tiamat. "She had the potential to create a new world ."

Regarding planet level Goetia. The Temple of Time is a reality marble with planetary mage craft . What makes up the temple is solomons own magic circuits .

Goetias goal was to create a new planet.

He needed prep time to do this.

Goetias band of light would rival Tiamats mud and potentially destroy it. Quetzalcoatl was confident she* could rival that with her NP/Authority. However, after Tiamat transformed. Quetzalcotal was confident that the power of the 3 goddessres combined would do nothing to tiamat.

 

[LSirLancelotDuLacl]

Can you stop using quotes, Luka? It just turns the thread unnecessarily longer and makes it take more time to load.

Considering it is her only class skill that doesn't change at all compared to the others and her profile comes many pages before the full power Beast lll, perhaps to save space. I admit it is rather odd, but nothing else at all places her as above her Moon Cell self at all. And considering the only thing that's the same is her NPs and class skills, of which all but one are lowered, but all of her personal skills are different, then no I don't see her as just a completely similar but weaker Beast lll. She's even called her original name to separate her from Beast lll, and is officially an Alter Ego, yet the description still talks about Beast lll.

You indeed have a point that there's no reason it couldn't refer to the both of them, but my whole point is that unlike the rather explicit mention of Beast lll, the strenghtening doesn't refer to her power as a whole, but rather her mind hax. And that mindhax was something she was already an expert at before she became Heaven's Hole, so using that as a supporting statement that she's stronger as a whole is lacking.

I won't disagree that I see the point you are trying to make, but this just doesn't seem like enough to me.

 

[LSirLancelotDuLacl]

-snip-

My point is that Servant Enkidu's Ea scales off Gilgamesh's Ea. And Living Enkidu's Ea scales still from Servant Gilgamesh's Ea, since we know his would be stronger as made clear by Enkidu himself, and from Origin Gilgamesh's Ea since it would be comparable to Kiara.

But Gil's Ea is evidently misranked, as you yourself argue because the Anti-World rank and the use of the word "World" makes things confusing, and CCC Kiara's rank is in a bit of a limbo as she's supposed to be on the level of Saver, there's still the discussion about her NP not being literal but being a representation of her pure mind hax so her AP is wrong, which by extension make the justification for Enkidu's Ea shaky.

Using him as a feat doesn't help much, not at least until Kiara or Gilgamesh see some progress.

 

[RegisNex1232]

No, I agree with most of what you said, just clarifying why Kingu isn't totally irrelevant here.

Regarding Origin Gil, it's noted in CCC that Kiara would have still oneshot any Servant you had regardless of the powerup if BB and co hadn't been interfering. Her hax wasn't that easily countered.

 

[RegisNex1232]

That is in regard to creating new life that would take over the current Human Order by wiping them out with Chaos Tide mud. We already see what happens when she starts to wake up. The translation puts the new world in quotes, and then refers to humanity's foundations in the next part. She has no feats or statements suggesting a full remaking of the Earth like Goetia, who needed prep time to pull it off. This isn't the best way to get Planet level Tiamat.

 

[TheUnshakableOne]

The bands of Light we see in the singularity was nearly complete. Ushi (i can't spell her name) was was using that as a guage of power.

The goddesses were talking about the reason why she was sealed, in the past. Which was because of her power. .. and everything else was completely irrelevant to the statement of "Potential to create a new world..."

_______________ Regarding gilgamesh however. I took scans from Strange fake themselves along with a link and page number.

"It hailed from an era more ancient than humans, older than even the planet itself. it was a rariet among rarities, a pure manifestation of the power wielded by gods to enact genesis. "

This is saying that Ea had the power to create the earth. This same page 121 of volume 1 of strange fake also talked about anti-world noble phantasms . Which is also in this scan above.

Servant Enkindu is weaker than living enindu.

The planet itself was giving power to Enkindu to match gilgamesh. The counter force, and gaia are also mentioned within the scan as well. Tine the master of Gilgamesh is someone who can draw upon the earth with leylines for more mana. Which is similar to what Enkindu does. He stated "it was enough to delude one into thinking the counter force, and gaia were opposing gilgamesh."

Ea does have hax of causing spatial cuts. or cuts in space. Enkindu is capable of stitching this cuts back together.

Pale rider when observing the fight said "The world was born, and destroyed seven times over."

This is perhaps the most irrefutable. The fate/strange fake noble phantasm description for Enkindu's EA. "In response to things that threaten the the destruction of the planet, or humanity the power is increased. " Kingu was massively amped when holding back tiamat due to both happening. Gilgamesh was threatening the planet based upon context as i shown above.

 

[RegisNex1232]

Your SF scans say nothing about Ea the weapon making the Earth, lol. Ea the god who terraformed the surface =/= Ea the weapon representing said act. Stuff already covered in the thread.

Tine is the one thinking that, and we see nothing other than Enkidu getting enough backup to match Gil. This says nothing about Ea being a planetbusting weapon and only highlights Enkidu's ability.

A line from Shamhat which was already discussed in the thread as slightly hyperbolic and once again, the word World is highlighted, pointing out the difference between World and planet.

You don't have to threaten a lot to get Counter Force against you, given that Enkidu was calling for backup on his own.

This isn't exactly showing how Ea is a planet buster.

 

[TheUnshakableOne]

Make what you want of it *Shurgs*. I'll let others assess it. A link is in the screenshots i have. The fight starts around page 119 all the way through. If you can't find it at 119 then just keep scrolling down.

Although one could make a counter arguement that Strange Fake was intentionally created to be different than the CCC variants of Gil, and Enkindu. The Author says "I did my best to make the story from a slightly different "Starting point."

 

[JBennett]

Your not really adding anything different that hasn't already been stated. Just because the counter force help Enkidu doesn't mean it used a Planet level amount to counter Gil, especially since it uses any amount that is 'needed' in order to fight.

About the Creation bit, it would have to be proven that in that context World = Planet, since it may just be a new Era would be the result if Tiamat was able to destroy the Human World.

 

[JBennett]

If we take Ea at face value and use the Human world= World as context then at the very most it would be Multi Contennet Level since the Human world only surround the Surface of the planet, we have no actuall indication on the details on the size of the Human world beyond it rapping around the Planet.

 

[Matthew_Schroeder]

I disagree with Human World being just the surface and Ea is clearly at least 5-B.

 

[RegisNex1232]

From the Distinction between Anti-World and Anti-Planet, Holmes' explanation, Merlin's explanation and Lostbelts. We can see that "world" or the new term Nasu is using "texture" is different from planet.

Meanwhile, the actual material says otherwise. This isn't something you can ignore when it's an important detail in several plots in FGO.


A simple, easy to understand visual representing what Merlin and Sherlock are referring to.

 

[JBennett]

And your proof of this where?

 

[Paul_Frank]

I just want to pint out that even if you want to say ea only destroys the top layer or The World there is some evidence that can be interpreted to mean that the World is bigger than the actual planet earth

 

[Matthew_Schroeder]

I've always said that the Human World should be more impressive than Planet level.

Nevermind that a lof of sufficient planet level scans have been posted here.

 

[JBennett]

@ Paul As of now we have no indication that Earth is larger then Real Earth since it's supposed to reflect on our own it, Their not physically stacked ontop of each other like building blocks rather they are overlapping each other, the Reverse Side is stated to be underneith the Human World but both Worlds lay on top of the Planets surface.

@ Mat You mean the scans for FsF and Kiara? then no their not evidence, one requiers the understand on what "destroying the World" mean, which we are talking about, while the other scales above it.

 

[RegisNex1232]

I just want to pint out that even if you want to say ea only destroys the top layer or The World there is some evidence that can be interpreted to mean that the World is bigger than the actual planet earth

If you want to be dishonest while analysing, sure. That definitely is what this wiki wants, falsified information and reasons for profiles.

 

[TheUnshakableOne]

I provided page number, and a link in my screenshots for anyone who wants to fact check/ read strange fake themselves to see what they believe the interpretation is.


Did anyone read the scan of Tiamat I posted....? It has nothing to do with the creation of a new era.....

 

[RegisNex1232]

This Translation says otherwise, given that the new world part is in quotes and everything else does not suggest Tiamat actually making a new world/planet.

 

[TheUnshakableOne]

Reddit fan translation vs. official translations? ƒñö


Wouldn't it he better to say "world" is vague, and we lack full context of events?

 

[Matthew_Schroeder]

I agree with Upgrade Man. He's the only one actually providing sources and official scans and not basing it on headcanon.

 

[Ozy_the_God-King]

Mats don't exactly repeat stuff over and over again. MCS doesn't say anything beyond elaborating her hax where she devours charmed souls in the name of salvation.

You haven't exactly proven your argument given that other statments and feats contradict it.

Beast Kiara is not > CCC Kiara, so why would you take that to wank Goetia to 4-B?

I have the same question for you because technically as you can see that you've wank Quetz to a 4-c which she technically does have that much hax to pull off. If she had a titan form then she could be such potential however she isn't one of the Titans gods but the latter like Anu. You need to understand threat level because even at full power she is still below Tiamat. Because he was a human that became a god.

 

[JBennett]

Again do you have proof that World=Planet, as in it referse to a Planet rather then the Human World?

 

[Paul_Frank]

Again do you have proof that World=Planet, as in it referse to a Planet rather then the Human World?

Because almost every time they talk about the human world or the top layer they call it The World. When they talk about the planet its world or planet and the reverse side is called the Reverse Side of The World

That capitalization of the terms is used to make it more clear which they are talking about but they arent going to straight up explain everything