Revising Tiamat (and possibly others?)

[Escanor998]

or at lest, thats how i understand it :/

 

[Escanor998]

Also, regarding Tiamat's speed, we shouldn't scale it to Gil's (in CCC) because it has been already told numerous times that its imposible to physical objects to travel FTL (It's only possible in the moon cell were everything is a cyberspace) and also ishtar, quetz, mash, merlin, and hassan all of them were capable to react to her movements (even if they later were stomped)

Also Tiamat creating the Earth was already debunked by Ishtar during Babylon, supossedly, the one that created the earth was the original Earth Mother Goddes of ├çatalhöyūk that directly draws power from the Root

Edit: One of the feats of Tiamat is having enough energy to travel beetween stellar systems (upon full manifestation), so, can that be calculated to get another idea of her power?

 

[LSirLancelotDuLacl]

Escanor, again, don't do multiple posts if possible. Just edit your original post and add anything that was left over.

 

[Dargoo_Faust]

6-A/High 6-A Ea lines up with destroying the World of Human Conciousness, tbh. He's need to kill every person on the planet for that to happen, which means continental/multi-continental range would be needed anyways.

 

[RegisNex1232]

6-A/High 6-A Ea lines up with destroying the World of Human Conciousness, tbh. He's need to kill every person on the planet for that to happen, which means continental/multi-continental range would be needed anyways.

This would then only be a "Possibly" as the other feats are not high enough to warrant the certainty.

 

[Escanor998]

6-A/High 6-A Ea lines up with destroying the World of Human Conciousness, tbh. He's need to kill every person on the planet for that to happen, which means continental/multi-continental range would be needed anyways.

This would then only be a "Possibly" as the other feats are not high enough to warrant the certainty.

It's hax, that would not grant that high AP but it would work against Pocket Realities of that size

 

[TheUnshakableOne]

I do have more to add. i been on vacation and cannot addmore at this time.

 

[RegisNex1232]

This would be specified in the profile.

 

[Paul_Frank]

Like haxman stated above

The layer system is gone because those layers are in a separate dimension from earth now so saying gil can only destroy the top layer doesn't really work

 

[RegisNex1232]

Like haxman stated above

The layer system is gone because those layers are in a separate dimension from earth now so saying gil can only destroy the top layer doesn't really work

Merlin and Sherlock say otherwise, and unlike you, they are actually valid sources.

 

[Dargoo_Faust]

The layer system is gone because those layers are in a separate dimension from earth now so saying gil can only destroy the top layer doesn't really work

Out of curiosity, where is this sourced?

 

[Paul_Frank]

Its stated that after the age of Gods the phantasmal species and gods went to a higher dimension and now since they are stuck in that higher dimension they are unable to directly interfere with the earth and stay on the reverse side of the world. The way it's all described means that the reverse side of the world is a separate higher dimension than where the rest of the verse sits. Also just want to point out that World can refer to arayashiki and the root or Akasha. So even disregarding the higher dimension thing it can be said that "Destroying the World" could mean destroying Akasha which would be even higher than if we just went off of the statements that the World and reverse side are the only "layers" and that the reverse side is a higher dimension by statements that say the gods went to a higher dimension

Ea is also not hax it tears apart the "world" not "World" using winds produced by spinning not some special power

 

[TheUnshakableOne]

The layer system is gone because those layers are in a separate dimension from earth now so saying gil can only destroy the top layer doesn't really work

Out of curiosity, where is this sourced?

I made a comment related to it if you scroll up just a little bit with scans from F/go that's why he said "I agree with hax man"

I also have more scans to add related to that topic. I found some good scans making it more believable. I am just trying to verify and fact check 1 however before I post my results, and I just got back from a vacation too so it'll take some time.

 

[Escanor998]

A quick thing, shouldn't Ea have existence erasure? I mean its supossed that "Everything that uses the cut space as a foundation is swallowed by the void and reduced to the nothingness from wich it originated" (well, it only works to beings of the earth but ok, I thing verse equalization should cover that up, I guess?)

Paul, no, it doesnt make sense, Akasha is the root of a 2-A to possibly 1-C multiverse, Ea destroying that is taken completely out of context

Edit: Also Enkidu's own Enuma Elish shouldn't be downgraded because as it draws power from the counter force, it's very likely that it can stop planetary threaths (actually, their Enuma Elish is an anti-purge defence so its 5-B key shouldn't be listed as attack potency, because it rises in power to match the opossing attack strength and protect Gaia if the attack in question is a world threatening event)

 

[RegisNex1232]

Okay, everything you said here is pure speculation amd deliberate misunderstanding of info given. The Reverse Side is still on Earth, pinned down by the Pillars like Rhongomyniad. There's no separate dimension involved. And the rest regatdong to the Rooy is literal nonsense. Nowhere is it stated that the World used in Ea's description refers to it. This is literal reaching for wank.

 

[Ciruno_Fortes]

Not Tier 2 Fate again... Never again....

 

[Escanor998]

Not Tier 2 Fate again... Never again....

that's one of the main reasons i can't sleep xd

 

[Escanor998]

A quick thing, shouldn't Ea have existence erasure? I mean its supossed that "Everything that uses the cut space as a foundation is swallowed by the void and reduced to the nothingness from wich it originated" (well, it only works to beings of the earth but ok, I thing verse equalization should cover that up, I guess?)

What do you think?


-Bump-

 

[RegisNex1232]

No? It doesn't fulfill the conditions set out for that category.

 

[Escanor998]

Well, whatever...

Also the AP for Ea should only be 6-C, because nasu stated numerous times that the output (firepower) of Ea is on a similar level to Excalibur or even slightly higher

Also, on a side note, why the NPs like Excalibur are rated like 6-C, there are no feats on that scale (or any calculated Np at all) and that leads to an senseless scaling chain for example:


Excalibur: 6-C at full power, should be superior to spartacus self-destruction and would have killed berserker all 12 times over ( Eh, no?, Crying WArmonger has no calc and killing berserker could be as low as High 7-A, but ok, let's continue)

Crying Warmonger: 6-C, destroyed half of the Yggmillenia fortress and was compared to a calamity like an earthquake or a tsunami. Also should be comparable to Karna's Brahmastra (Let's see, a Tsunami or an Earthquake could be done by a 7-A easily but ok, also why is destroying the fortress of Yggmillenia 6-C when the most powerful human-made modern magecraft was 7-A?)

Brahmastra KUndala(aka where the scaling chain becomes ridiculous): 6-C, described as being capable of desrtroying the Yggmillenia fortress (What's with that, gosh) and would have killed Ruler even if she used Luminosite Eternelle ( No?, it would kill her befor she can pull it) Also should be comparable to Arjuna's Pashupata(let's see that later)

Pashupata : 6-C, killed Clan calatin, a composite being made of 28 demon gods, and should be comparable to karna's Brahmastra as his equal. (no, just no, pashupata deals instant death and the 28 gigaton calc done on narutoforums was flawled because we don't know the size of the forest and also we don't know how it was destroyed. Also, why is this scaled to Karna in any way? this Np is a divine construct and the main weapon of the most powerful indian god, so it should logically be higher than brahmastra)

Balmung: High 7-A, managed to overpower Brahmastra KUndala after spamming it and delayed Vasavi Shakti (no, there is no calc to Brahmastra that would put it that high, and for vasavi, just after he's seen it was completely overpowering his blade, he used the command spell on himself and even then it would had been overpowered in just two seconds had not Astolfo used Achilled Shield to stop it)

All A+ NP: escaling to Balmung (also it's worth noting that Sieg's Balmung was stronger than it would normally be because it's gem stores mana and true ether and he was constantly charging it with his galvanism)

See where is the inconsistence? And lets not bring up those horribly missplaced 6-B NPs :/

 

[RegisNex1232]

Noble Phantasms should get their own thread. If you want to, you can make one regarding the scaling. At the very least, it should not be continued here.

 

[Paul_Frank]

I'm not arguing for low 1-C Ea

I'm arguing for planet level ea based on its statements

The thing about Arayashiki was to show that if you want to pretend that saying the world was destroyed and remade 7 times refers to the top layer only, disregarding the fact that there is only the reverse side which has statements that show it's in a separate dimension, in an attempt to get the lowest possible rating for everything it can just as easily be done to get an absurdly high rating and both the argument for low 1-C Ea and 6-CEa are literally the same but reversed.

The 6-C argument is that world is supposed to be referring to the top layer of a multilayer system which no longer exists. The problems with that are that the top layer and reverse side are the only things left from the layer system but its stated multiple times that the gods and divine spirits went to a higher separate dimension and can't interfere with Earth, this dimension is clarified to be the reverse side in other works. The other more clear cut reason that this is incorrect is that its specifically stated to be world not World the previous one is used almost exclusively for the actual planet earth and once or twice for Arayashiki. The second one is the only one used to refer to the "top layer" and also a few times it has also referred to Arayashiki

The 1-C argument is literally the same as that but instead of going for the lowest possible rating it's going for the highest possible rating.

The point of the low 1-C argument was to show you that the 6-c arguments are insubstantial and rely on incorrectly interpretting events, statements, and the current cosmology of the verse, which has changed significantly throughout time much like most of the arguements in this thread.

 

[RegisNex1232]

Again, repeating nonsense thst is disproven by Merlin and Sherlock to try to wank stuff is hardly a decent argument. The Reverse Side isn't in a separate dimension, while the gods went somewhere not specified at all. This hardly supports planet level Ea.

 

[TheUnshakableOne]

Question, when did Holmes talk about the textures. WHat part, act, or section in grand order?

 

[Escanor998]

No, the layer/texture system still exists, and is GO canon. also Akasha is a completely separated entity. 5-A/B Ea has no basis outside of destroying the outer layer of the World because of it's concept of truth (Is hax, so it would not be translated into AP because its firepower is on the level of excalibur and is done over a span of time like against Rider and Ionio Hetairoi)

and, unless you say that you know more about the verse than it's own creator (Nasu), you shouldn't say that the very basis of the workings of the planet would change just because you say so, also gods/divine spirits are not on the reverse side but are on a separate layer/domain of their respective pantheon (explained on Lostbelt 2). And you are wrong, actually during the age of gods there was less diference between the layers because as shown during babylon, those places were physical things, but were exiled from the world of the common sense of man to be on a diferent layer

 

[RegisNex1232]

Question, when did Holmes talk about the textures. WHat part, act, or section in grand order?

https://vsbattles.com/vsbattles/2760403#182

Right here, if you had bothered to read through.

Holmes spoke about ot in Camelot Chapter 15.

 

[Matthew_Schroeder]

I don't see why people acting like Noble Phantasms like Pashupata should be 6-C. Pashupata has a High 6-A feat and Ea is very easily 5-B. All I'm seeing is a lot of downplay.

 

[Escanor998]

Pashupata was done by using an attack animation that is on a limited battlefield created by the Moon Cell and that would also lead to the same problem as with Amitabha Amidala

 

[Matthew_Schroeder]

Attack Animations are valid guys, the parroting that is only used by a handful of users for this specific verse is ridiculous.

 

[WeeklyBattles]

I really have no idea where the notion that what an attack looks like shouldnt be taken as valid

 

[Escanor998]

And you were constantly disregarding WoG to wank Ea, also attack animations that show a feat so ridiculously higher than any other thing of similar category on the whole verse without WoG backing up the feat is considered an outlier

 

[Matthew_Schroeder]

"WoG" as a concept is doubtful at best. What we have are in-universe statements and guidebook explanations which you choose to interpret a certain way.

There are plenty of 5-B, 4-B, 4-C statements in Fate but amusingly enough all of those you ignore.

 

[Matthew_Schroeder]

Are we to ignore the statements that Brahmastra and Pashupata can destroy a country. The statements regarding King Solomon, Goetia, B.B, Ea, Enkidu, Surtr, Kiara, Saver. Are we to ignore every single Noble Phantasm animation that you dislike? Are we to ignore Arcueid dropping the moon at people in Melty Blood?

 

[WeeklyBattles]

Just ignore every attack used in the series and claim the verse is featless because yall are just cherrypicking what feats to ignore at this point

 

[Escanor998]

then you are using already debunked arguments, the classification Anti-Country means that it attacks several kilometers, not a country (mind you, if Brahmastra could destroy a country, then, what happened to Rumania in apocrypha?), Solomon could only recreate the Earth by using Ars Almadel Salomonis after gathering energy through thousands of years, it's not something that can be done normally. BB is planet level because she has control over the Moon Cell that is equivalent in power and authority to Gaia and the counter Force, also nobody questions BB's power here. Enkidu is not planet level, he does not have feats nor statements on that scale. About Surtr - Fenrir he would be High 6-B at most, possibly high 6-A with Loptr Laegjarn. Kiara is planet level because she gained control over the moon cell and transformed into a demonic Bodhisattva. Nobody questions Saver's power (but still, it's not right using his "scale of influence" as a feat to put him in tier 4-B because we don't know how other than "can manipulate a solar system", that could easily be just mindhax but ok. I don't dislike any NP, but is ridiculous to put a fancy weapon at a ridiculous tier just because you like it without any feats backing it up.

Don't bring arcueid here because she is an Ultimate One

 

[Escanor998]

"WoG" as a concept is doubtful at best. What we have are in-universe statements and guidebook explanations which you choose to interpret a certain way.
There are plenty of 5-B, 4-B, 4-C statements in Fate but amusingly enough all of those you ignore.

Actually,there are a few, and none of them is relevant for this thread (exept Ars, the Moon Cell, saver's authority)

 

[JBennett]

Alright Mat I have a request for you personally, find a different feat that scales to Gil, that is 'Planet Level' and is not centered around Ea, since Ea is what we are discussing right now.

 

[Matthew_Schroeder]

Gil beating up Kiara.

 

[Matthew_Schroeder]

Also Escanor, Surtr is Star level at least.

 

[Escanor998]

Kiara was weakened by BB and her alter egos using a portion of the authority of the Moon Cell and Gil was using energy from the moon cell core