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Revising Marvel's Abstracts (Part 2 of ????)

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Ultima_Reality said:
High 1-A for Eternity and the things above him (i.e What the upper portions of the OP are dedicated to explaining) is to go through. That said, one point that's open to a bit of discussion is the exact tiering of the Superflow (Since that's relevant to the Multiversal Abstracts not named Eternity or Death)

As is, I would suggest it to be High 1-A as well, since it's described as the highest level of reality, and generally portrayed as the last plane that there is before reaching Eternity proper (Which is also established by what it represents: It's Eternity's mindscape, as opposed to the Neutral Zone, which is his "body," so to speak). Given the close tie shared by the two, I'd say it is proper to consider it above the hierarchy of worlds within worlds.
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I'm fine with that. What's left to discuss here?
 
Antvasima said:
I will remind DontTalk again. Hopefully an agreement can be reached here quickly.
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Ultima_Reality said:
So, a couple days later, and it seems I'll become even more occupied for the months to come. Given that and in the interest of getting these revisions over with already (It's been nearly two months), I've decided to drop the points regarding the Superflow and cardinals for the moment. As mentioned prior, the final outcome of this thread won't be particularly impacted by that, so, no real point in clinging to it out of stubbornness, anyway.
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I think Ultima dropped the remaining points of contention for the time being, meaning we can move on to applying what was accepted and moving on to parts 2.5 & 3 of the revision.
 
Given we're getting into that, I should share some of my additional findings before carrying on.

So, reading into some stuff, I found more information pertinent to the hierarchy of universes that Marvel seems to sporadically apply here and again. This will be yet another addendum on the matter (Last addendum seen here). For reference, the following comes from the early 2000s run of X-Man.

Basically, in X-Man #68, we are introduced to the concept of the Spiral of Worlds. Long story short: It's the multiverse. To get more specific: The story tells us that all parallel universes are arrayed in the shape of an ascending spiral, a double helix, where Earths become increasingly good and perfect as you climb up the ladder, and, likewise, increasingly shittier and more primitive as one climbs downwards.

The explanation for why universes arrange themselves in this specific shape is given in the scans: As Above, so Below. The Spiral is, in fact, a genetic code. It's the DNA of some unimaginable higher entity. Admittedly I at first figured this being would be the Multiversal Eternity, since recent comics often analogize individual universes as being like his "cells." But given how obscure of a character he was in that period of Marvel history, this explanation seemed overly anachronistic to me, so I decided to look further.

And it turns out my suspicions were correct. The same storyline also introduces us to an important location, the Brilliant City; this is basically supposed to be the highest universe in all of the Spiral. It's the pinnacle of anything that humans understand as "reality," where the most perfect beings in all the Earths exist. Said beings, for the matter, being powerful enough to destroy whole Earths on their lonesome.

However, it's eventually revealed that, though it's the pinnacle of the Spiral of Worlds, the Brilliant City isn't actually the highest universe. There is a spectrum of Earths even further beyond it, which Nate Gray was completely unaware of, despite the fact he previously had the entire Spiral shown to him. The entities inhabiting these Earths, as it turns out, are so great that the people of the Brilliant City are, to them, even less than the lowest being in all of the Spiral is to the people of the Brilliant City (So, as Low 1-As are to Tier 10s, they are to Low 1-As)

Given how these higher beings are drawn as having bodies containing stars, and their position relative to the Spiral, it would seem that the Spiral of Worlds itself is supposed to be the "genetic code" of one of them. So, this is another showcase on the full extent of the Marvel Multiverse being a regress of levels, each containing the other.

(By the way, this also means that feats/statements like "He destroyed the multiverse!" won't inherently be High 1-A without further context, since there's a whole hierarchy of multiverses in Marvel, technically speaking. Such feats will only be High 1-A if it's clarified that they affect all of Eternity)
 
Ultima_Reality said:
Given we're getting into that, I should share some of my additional findings before carrying on.

So, reading into some stuff, I found more information pertinent to the hierarchy of universes that Marvel seems to sporadically apply here and again. This will be yet another addendum on the matter (Last addendum seen here). For reference, the following comes from the early 2000s run of X-Man.

Basically, in X-Man #68, we are introduced to the concept of the Spiral of Worlds. Long story short: It's the multiverse. To get more specific: The story tells us that all parallel universes are arrayed in the shape of an ascending spiral, a double helix, where Earths become increasingly good and perfect as you climb up the ladder, and, likewise, increasingly shittier and more primitive as one climbs downwards.

The explanation for why universes arrange themselves in this specific shape is given in the scans: As Above, so Below. The Spiral is, in fact, a genetic code. It's the DNA of some unimaginable higher entity. Admittedly I at first figured this being would be the Multiversal Eternity, since recent comics often analogize individual universes as being like his "cells." But given how obscure of a character he was in that period of Marvel history, this explanation seemed overly anachronistic to me, so I decided to look further.

And it turns out my suspicions were correct. The same storyline also introduces us to an important location, the Brilliant City; this is basically supposed to be the highest universe in all of the Spiral. It's the pinnacle of anything that humans understand as "reality," where the most perfect beings in all the Earths exist. Said beings, for the matter, being powerful enough to destroy whole Earths on their lonesome.

However, it's eventually revealed that, though it's the pinnacle of the Spiral of Worlds, the Brilliant City isn't actually the highest universe. There is a spectrum of Earths even further beyond it, which Nate Gray was completely unaware of, despite the fact he previously had the entire Spiral shown to him. The entities inhabiting these Earths, as it turns out, are so great that the people of the Brilliant City are, to them, even less than the lowest being in all of the Spiral is to the people of the Brilliant City (So, as Low 1-As are to Tier 10s, they are to Low 1-As)

Given how these higher beings are drawn as having bodies containing stars, and their position relative to the Spiral, it would seem that the Spiral of Worlds itself is supposed to be the "genetic code" of one of them. So, this is another showcase on the full extent of the Marvel Multiverse being a regress of levels, each containing the other.

(By the way, this also means that feats/statements like "He destroyed the multiverse!" won't inherently be High 1-A without further context, since there's a whole hierarchy of multiverses in Marvel, technically speaking. Such feats will only be High 1-A if it's clarified that they affect all of Eternity)
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So what would affecting the multiverse be in situations where it isn't High 1-A? Just 1-A?
 
Eseseso said:
So what would affecting the multiverse be in situations where it isn't High 1-A? Just 1-A?
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It'd be Low 1-A, since you're basically messing with infinite Eternities. Although, it is feasible to mess with just the internal contents of each Eternity, and not with the actual substance of them, so, it could be High 1-B as well.
 
Ultima_Reality said:
It'd be Low 1-A, since you're basically messing with infinite Eternities. Although, it is feasible to mess with just the internal contents of each Eternity, and not with the actual substance of them, so, it could be High 1-B as well.
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Cool, thanks.

And I know Part 2.5 will cover scaling (not to mention cleaning up the barebones P&A for the profiles of the abstracts and other cosmic deities), so what about the mythological Gods will be covered in Part 3? How they connect to the cosmology?
 
I would greatly appreciate if you can please not incorporate the spiral storyline from X-Man within your revision.

Not all stronger universes are automatically infinitely stronger, just finitely so, and as you stated yourself, the inhabitants of the highest shown "perfect" Earth were only displayed to be of a planetary 5-B scale for the base level Marvel Universe, not infinite degrees of infinity above that.

In addition, the higher beings displayed at the end of the storyline were not shown or implied to be inhabitants of higher Earths at all as far as I recall, just some kind of cosmic entities.
 
Antvasima said:
Not all stronger universes are automatically infinitely stronger, just finitely so, and as you stated yourself, the inhabitants of the highest shown "perfect" Earth were only displayed to be of a planetary 5-B scale for the base level Marvel Universe, not infinite degrees of infinity above that.

In addition, the higher beings displayed at the end of the storyline were not shown or implied to be inhabitants of higher Earths at all as far as I recall, just some kind of cosmic entities.
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I never claimed each higher Earth was infinitely stronger than a lower one. I said the spectrum beyond (i.e the thing above all the regular Earths) was infinitely above the Spiral of Worlds. Different things.

Furthermore saying the inhabitants of the Brilliant City are just 5-B is objectively disingenuous, seeing as Qabiri was depicted as immensely more powerful than Nate Grey, and his whole objective was erasing every reality apart from the City itself to prevent their inhabitants from someday climbing into it. The narration box for issue #72 even says he is passing judgement on existence itself, so, clearly, he is laying waste to more than the planet Earth in his crusade.

The higher entities above the Spiral are also indeed inhabitants of higher universes of a sort. They're even depicted as standing among an even higher spiral of Earths to represent that.
 
Okay. I have dealt with people who made the arguments that I mentioned at times, so that is the reason for my misunderstanding.
 
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Yeah, I understand. I am aware of what the arguments are, but rest assured I don't really agree with them at all.
 
Ultima_Reality said:
Not at all. And the changes I plan to apply to the profiles extend to quite a bit more than just the tiering, so, they'll be applied after the next thread.
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1. Ok, then I just look forward to Part 2.5!

2. The cosmic Gods really need P&A updates so yeah I agree it is best to wait before adding the tiering stuff.
 
No, we are still waiting for DontTalk.
 
We need to confirm that with more than one party in their discussion.
 
Well while we're waiting (since we don't know how long it'll take for DT to respond), I don't see any reason why we shouldn't begin discussing the next part while we wait.
 
Low 1-A: Dormammu, Umar, Nightmare (I think), Nebula and Adam Warlock with the IG, Thanos with the IG and with the Heart of the Universe, Strange with his strongest spells and artifacts, Clea, Dweller in Darkness, Well-Fed Galactus IIRC (Fought the In-Betweener evenly), Amatsu-Mikaboshi

1-A: Reed Richards w/ the Ultimate Nullifier, as well as the Ultimate Nullifier itself, the Chaos King's Ascended Form, God of Gods Hercules

High 1-A: Astral Regulator Thanos and the First Firmament

How does that rough draft look?

Also, will Cosmic Cubes range between High 1-B and Low 1-A since 5 of them could make Eternity catatonic?
 
Eseseso said:
Low 1-A: Dormammu, Umar, Nightmare (I think), Nebula and Adam Warlock with the IG, Thanos with the IG and with the Heart of the Universe, Strange with his strongest spells and artifacts, Clea, Dweller in Darkness, Well-Fed Galactus IIRC (Fought the In-Betweener evenly), Amatsu-Mikaboshi

1-A: Reed Richards w/ the Ultimate Nullifier, as well as the Ultimate Nullifier itself, the Chaos King's Ascended Form, God of Gods Hercules

High 1-A: Astral Regulator Thanos and the First Firmament

How does that rough draft look?

Also, will Cosmic Cubes range between High 1-B and Low 1-A since 5 of them could make Eternity catatonic?
Click to expand...
Nightmare is honestly gonna be left for Part 3. Strange dude, that one.

We're dividing Starlin's Infinity Saga from the regular cosmology, so, Astral Regulator Thanos is not getting High 1-A, no. On the other hand, everyone who scales to Multi-Eternity is High 1-A, and that would include Mikaboshi and the Ultimate Nullifier at its peak.

And the Cosmic Cubes will range from High 1-B to Low 1-A, yeah.
 
Ultima_Reality said:
Nightmare is honestly gonna be left for Part 3. Strange dude, that one.
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Yeah I had little idea on how to rank him. His current profile doesn't help at all, since they only mention him being HDE (which doesn't help determine his AP), and say that he put Eternity to sleep, which isn't remotely power-related.
Ultima_Reality said:
We're dividing Starlin's Infinity Saga from the regular cosmology, so, Astral Regulator Thanos is not getting High 1-A, no.
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Ok, then. Odd.
Ultima_Reality said:
On the other hand, everyone who scales to Multi-Eternity is High 1-A, and that would include Mikaboshi and the Ultimate Nullifier at its peak.
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OOOHHH, I mistook Eternity's True Self for Multi-Eternity, my bad.

Also:
Eseseso said:
will Cosmic Cubes range between High 1-B and Low 1-A since 5 of them could make Eternity catatonic?
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And I know moderately fed Galactus IIRC is the one who scales to the High 1-B Agamotto, but will well-fed Galactus be Low 1-A for throwing hands with the In-Betweener?
 
High 1-B people (from what I can tell): Odin, Zeus, Skyfather Hercules, Thor with Odinforce, Base Herald of Thunder, and God Blast, Uatu (no idea how he scales to Odin or High 1-B but this is what I've heard), Moderately Fed Galactus, Doom with prep/tech and absorption

High 1-A: Rune King Thor & Herald of Thunder with Absorption and God Blast, Life Bringer Galactus, Ones who Sit Above in Shadow

God Emperor Doom would either be Low 1-A via scaling above the IG, or High 1-A since Reed with his powers brough back the Marvel Multiverse.

Low 1-A: Dark Phoenix (via scaling above Giraud due to being the most powerful Phoenix force host), Shuma Gorath, Ant-Man at max size
 
Eseseso said:
God Emperor Doom would either be Low 1-A via scaling above the IG, or High 1-A since Reed with his powers brough back the Marvel Multiverse.
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High 1-A for that is a no-go. Dan Slott's run of Silver Surfer made it clear that the Incursions didn't actually destroy Eternity's "body", just emptied him of universes and caused a sort of reboot on his consciousness (Hence him being reborn as himself instead of a whole other entity, as it went with the previous cosmoses). Reed really just remade a few universes and then Eternity's own internal systems did the rest (That, or Molecule Man did, seeing as he's described as the "demiurge" of the Eighth Cosmos and the one actually responsible for putting the wheel of time back in motion)
 
Ultima_Reality said:
High 1-A for that is a no-go. Dan Slott's run of Silver Surfer made it clear that the Incursions didn't actually destroy Eternity's "body", just emptied him of universes and caused a sort of reboot on his consciousness (Hence him being reborn as himself instead of a whole other entity, as it went with the previous cosmoses). Reed really just remade a few universes and then Eternity's own internal systems did the rest (That, or Molecule Man did, seeing as he's described as the "demiurge" of the Eighth Cosmos and the one actually responsible for putting the wheel of time back in motion)
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Ok, then how about High 1-A for having at least a decent portion of the Beyonders' power, which should put him above Lifebringer Galactus who Molecule Man with all the Beyonders' power could wipe out with a thought.

And didn't God Emperor Doom control Eternity?

Also Doom with prep is High 1-A for killing the Beyonders and making the machine that absorbed their collective power.

And is Well-Fed Galactus Low 1-A for fighting the In-Betweener evenly?
 
1. Would Mephisto-lvl people scale to High 1-B since Mephisto matched a Moderately-Fed Galactus?

2. If a week passes and DT doesn't respond, can we proceed onto the next part of the revisions?
 
Ultima_Reality said:
Nightmare is honestly gonna be left for Part 3. Strange dude, that one.
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Oh no, he's losing tier 1 isn't he?

Couldn't you just scale him as comparable to the Dweller in Darkness, who scales to the M'kraan crystal (which is where Dark Phoenix gets her current Low 1-C rating from), and apparently also killed an alternate universe Phoenix?

Also good God Nightmare is one of the many Marvel powerhouses who needs a revised P&A section
 
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