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Removing Multiple Dragon Ball Resistances

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ProudLearner said:
I disagree.

It's like saying, RPG characters with an energy coat that gives them resistance to certain hax does not count as resistance.
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In this situation they can pay an energy cost to resist because Hakai can be resisted with an energy cost. It's Hakai's weakness. No reason why they should resist Hax that can't be resisted with an energy cost.
 
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that is, basically if it is clearly stated that character A is not deleted because it is stronger than character B. Then it can be easily deleted by a C character stronger than A character, right? I'm not very familiar with DB, but if the situation is as I said, I think this may be a weakness, yes
 
AKUTO123 said:
that is, basically if it is clearly stated that character A is not deleted because it is stronger than character B. Then it can be easily deleted by a C character stronger than A character, right? I'm not very familiar with DB, but if the situation is as I said, I think this may be a weakness, yes
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Yes. If there's a scaling chain where Character C > Character B > Character A, then B would survive a hakai from A, but will be erased by C anyways despite all having the exact same ability
 
Completely disagree with this, there are zero statements or implications in the anime that even suggest Hakai is an AP based EE.Believe it or not, Sidra has already witnessed how powerful Blue Goku is when he fought Bergamo and later Blue KK Goku when he fought Toppo, so he should be smart enough to make a Hakai strong enough to disintegrate even Blue KK Goku. And guess what, an off guard base Goku can resist it for a moment. If Hakai was AP based , Goku would instantly die no matter what.
 
The funny thing is, even in Manga, Whis directly stated you need Ki to resist Hit's time hax, which mean Ki as a supernatural, universal energy system can grant resistance, just because Ki boost physical strength doesn't somehow mean Ki mean physical. By this logic, we should also delete verse-specific ability, universal energy system, or remove resistance from verse that use a similar system such as magical energy, mana, etc.....

Not only that but also we have a standard that hax can overpower resistance, which mean layered, hiwever by this logic we should remove layered hax and resistance because i could sway this kind of logic into, resistance that can be overpowered by another hax mean it is weakness of the resistance, not layered resistance
 
SummerBlue said:
We shouldn't be giving abilities to Dragon Ball or to any series that they don't have. The point of the site is to be accurate.

Why should DB resist EE Hax when it doesn't have the same weakness to AP like Hakai?
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Because they DO have the powers and abilities. No one added powers they don't have, we only have abilities they do have.

Because it's not a weakness for Energy of Destruction, it's a power for having a strong Ki barrier.
 
DarkDragonMedeus said:
Because they DO have the powers and abilities. No one added powers they don't have, we only have abilities they do have.

Because it's not a weakness for Energy of Destruction, it's a power for having a strong Ki barrier.
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It is a weakness of Hakai. You can't ignore that Hakai attacks were winning or losing against Ki attacks depending on who has more AP. Hax ignores ignores Ki completely. Since when does Ki grant special resistances?
 
SummerBlue said:
Hakai: An Existence Erasure technique that can be overpowered by AP.

90 AP Hakai attack < 100 AP attack < 110 Hakai attack < 120 AP attack < Infinite AP Hakai

Goku with a power level of a 100 can't be erased by a Hakai attack with the power level of 90 because Hakai can be overpowered with AP. But a Hakai attack of 110 AP would kill him.

Existence Erasure Hax: From the Hax page
"Hax is a catch-all term for abilities that can be used to ignore/bypass one or more of a target's statistics, rendering them irrelevant."

EE Hax < Resistance to EE Hax < Resistance Negation < Resistance to Resistance Negation < Infinite Layers of resistance to EE Hax

Infinite AP Hakai < EE Hax

EE hax completely ignores AP. Goku with Infinite AP would just get erased by EE hax because it's not like Hakai and completely ignores AP. EE hax does not care about the AP chain because Hax completely ignores it. Hakai's potency is in the AP chain not in a Hax chain. It's weakness to AP is something Hax does not have.
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Reposting this
 
SummerBlue said:
Reposting this
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What you posted didn’t prove a ******* jackshit. A bunch of ******* headcanon with zero backup statements or evidences. If Hakai was AP based, then tell me how the **** did an off guard base Goku was able to survive Sidra’s Hakai despite the massive gap in power. Inb4 you said Sidra held back, Sidra has already seen SSB Goku’s power. The Hakai which Sidra made was specifically to kill Goku even in his strongest form. If Hakai was AP based , Goku would be instantly erased the moment the energy ball hit him.
 
OneRhasstyBoi said:
What you posted didn’t prove a ******* jackshit. A bunch of ******* headcanon with zero backup statements or evidences. If Hakai was AP based, then tell me how the **** did an off guard base Goku was able to survive Sidra’s Hakai despite the massive gap in power. Inb4 you said Sidra held back, Sidra has already seen SSB Goku’s power. The Hakai which Sidra made was specifically to kill Goku even in his strongest form. If Hakai was AP based , Goku would be instantly erased the moment the energy ball hit him.
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We don't know how powerful the Hakai ball was and Goku was going to die if Beerus didn't save him. That wasn't anywhere close to Sidra's true power or are you going to argue that Sidra <<< Toppo.

Why is it that Frieza could survive and control it while Goku wasn't able to? Was is because Frieza's natural resistance is just much better than Goku at any of his transformations? It was simply because Frieza was in a more powerful state then Goku was at the moment. SSB Goku wouldn't have needed saving because he has more AP meaning he resists Hakai better. Why was Vegeta able to beat the Hakai ball with Final Explosion? Again it was because he had more AP and completely overpowered the ball with greater AP. Doesn't that all tell you that greater AP can resist Hakai. EE Hax has no such AP weakness.

If Hakai was Hax based it wouldn't care about AP. Toppo's Hakai ball would melt through Ki attacks no matter the AP difference and their resistance to Hakai wouldn't change depending on the AP they have. Goku would never resist Hakai from Beerus no matter how much stronger he gets. Beerus would be able to just kill UI Goku while having the same power level of Krillin.

Nobody has given a solid reason why they should resist EE Hax when it completely ignores the reason why they can resist Hakai.

Also calm down.
 
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SummerBlue said:
We don't know how powerful the Hakai ball was and Goku was going to die if Beerus didn't save him. That wasn't anywhere close to Sidra's true power or are you going to argue that Sidra <<< Toppo.

Why is it that Frieza could survive and control it while Goku wasn't able to? Was is because Frieza's natural resistance is just much better than Goku at any of his transformations? It was simply because Frieza was in a more powerful state then Goku was at the moment. SSB Goku wouldn't have needed saving because he has more AP meaning he resists Hakai better. Why was Vegeta able to beat the Hakai ball with Final Explosion? Again it was because he had more AP and completely overpowered the ball with greater AP. Doesn't that all tell you that greater AP can resist Hakai. EE Hax has no such AP weakness.

If Hakai was Hax based it wouldn't care about AP. Toppo's Hakai ball would melt through Ki attacks no matter the AP difference and their resistance to Hakai wouldn't change depending on the AP they have. Goku would never resist Hakai from Beerus no matter how much stronger he gets. Beerus would be able to just kill UI Goku while having the same power level of Krillin.

Nobody has given a solid reason why they should resist EE Hax when it completely ignores the reason why they can resist Hakai.

Also calm down.
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We absolutely do know how strong that energy ball was because Sidra has seen SSB Goku’s full power, why the **** did Sidra want to kill Goku but not make an energy ball stronger than SSB Goku, it doesn’t make any ******* sense. He still survived the ball until Beerus came and save him, didn’t he? Hakai is an insta killing move, you either resist it or you end up like Zamasu, being erased instantly
It would just mean that Frieza has better resistance than Goku because he can control his Ki better.
Vegeta did not beat Toppo due to pure physical power. He specifically need to constantly cover himself in Ki Barrier to negate the EE effect. And Ki is not pure physical power either, in one of the guide book, Akira Toriyama stated it is physical, spiritual and mental power.
And I’m perfectly fine, that’s just how I talk.
 
OneRhasstyBoi said:
We absolutely do know how strong that energy ball was because Sidra has seen SSB Goku’s full power, why the **** did Sidra want to kill Goku but not make an energy ball stronger than SSB Goku, it doesn’t make any ******* sense. He still survived the ball until Beerus came and save him, didn’t he? Hakai is an insta killing move, you either resist it or you end up like Zamasu, being erased instantly
It would just mean that Frieza has better resistance than Goku because he can control his Ki better.
Vegeta did not beat Toppo due to pure physical power. He specifically need to constantly cover himself in Ki Barrier to negate the EE effect. And Ki is not pure physical power either, in one of the guide book, Akira Toriyama stated it is physical, spiritual and mental power.
And I’m perfectly fine, that’s just how I talk.
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He was going to die all the same. Maybe it didn't have enough power to do it instantly but death was certain. Zamasu was killed by Beerus who has much more power than that Hakai ball. Frieza and Goku would instant die if they were in Zamasu's place.

What your not getting is Hax doesn't care about Ki at all. Goku could have as much AP and control as the Grand Priest and he would instantly die to EE Hax. The reason why they resist Hakai is because it can be resisted by Ap. Hax by definition ignores the difference in AP. Hax is stupid broken but that's what makes it Hax. Ki isn't Hax so it being physical, mental, or spiritual do not matter at all.
 
TheGreatJedi13 said:
This is literally headcanon now.
You're assuming he thinks like that when the only confirmed thought he plan was to erase goku via underhanded means. Not making sure it would work even against ssb goku is literally assuming Sidra is dumb
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Then do you believe that no matter the power level UI Goku gets killed by Sidra's Hakai Ball and Beerus's version of Hakai, Freiza can't be erased by a full power Sidra but Toopo a weaker character and Beerus a much stronger character can and power levels has nothing to do with it, Vegeta has a much better resistance than Goku for no reason, and ect.

I can make the argument that the way to beat Hakai with AP isn't 1:1 in power and more like 1:3. Or that Hakai only instantly erases if you completely overpower the opponent massively like Beerus can to Zamasu

It's canon that Sidra is incompetent. His angel doesn't like him because of it.
 
Vietthai96 said:
The funny thing is, even in Manga, Whis directly stated you need Ki to resist Hit's time hax, which mean Ki as a supernatural, universal energy system can grant resistance, just because Ki boost physical strength doesn't somehow mean Ki mean physical. By this logic, we should also delete verse-specific ability, universal energy system, or remove resistance from verse that use a similar system such as magical energy, mana, etc.....

Not only that but also we have a standard that hax can overpower resistance, which mean layered, hiwever by this logic we should remove layered hax and resistance because i could sway this kind of logic into, resistance that can be overpowered by another hax mean it is weakness of the resistance, not layered resistance
Click to expand...
How about this?
 
Vietthai96 said:
The funny thing is, even in Manga, Whis directly stated you need Ki to resist Hit's time hax, which mean Ki as a supernatural, universal energy system can grant resistance, just because Ki boost physical strength doesn't somehow mean Ki mean physical. By this logic, we should also delete verse-specific ability, universal energy system, or remove resistance from verse that use a similar system such as magical energy, mana, etc.....

Not only that but also we have a standard that hax can overpower resistance, which mean layered, hiwever by this logic we should remove layered hax and resistance because i could sway this kind of logic into, resistance that can be overpowered by another hax mean it is weakness of the resistance, not layered resistance
Click to expand...
This just means they overpowered a ki based hax with their own ki. I'm fine with them having resistance, but it should be noted that it's only for ki based erasure, especially since they only resisted because they overpowered a ki based hakai, with their own ki, meaning that at least in Dragon Ball, hakai is a ki attack that has the effect of erasing one's being, so limited resistance to ki based hakai is fine, as it's clear hakai only erases if the user has more ki than the victim
 
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Vizer04 said:
Goku and Frieza have Resistance to EE because they tanked Hakai attacks during the Tournament of Power Saga.

However, it's made clear in the series that Hakai attacks can be overpowered by regular Ki. By this same logic, we should give Resistance to Reality Warping to Nappa and Vegeta because they were stronger than Shenron and wouldn't be affected by his magic.

This same logic applies to all Resistances based on having bigger Ki (Time Skip, Paralysis, etc) and therefore, they should all be removed.


Agree: 13 (@Vizer04, @Kin201, @Gilad_Hyperstar, @StrymULTRA, @Lynieryz, @SummerBlue, @Shiraito983, @JustSomeWeirdo, @Damage3245, @Purgy, @Gohanblanco217, @Kachon123 and @AKUTO123)

Neutral: 1 (@thetechmaster36)

Disagree: 15 (@AguilaR202, @Stefano4444, @SirAlex09, @Maskofthedragon, @ArmBill, @Toby020, @Deceived3596, @DarkDragonMedeus, @Golden_Void, @Gogeta, @KLOL506, @TheGreatJedi13, @Guacamolefletcher, @Godernet and @Therefir)
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Agreed, a lot of the Dragon Ball "Resistances" are more like weaknesses in the hax, in lieu of an actual resistance of the character in question. Unless we're going to start saying Kakarot is actually immortal because the Devilmite Beam has no effect on him. An example of an actual resistance in Dragon Ball, would have to be Vegetto having somewhat of a resistance to transmutation via his showing as Candy Vegetto( I say somewhat because while his body is affected, his mind and power remain the same), which is stated to be a feat granted only to Vegetto (the specific words in the guidebooks were that "Vegetto possesses certain special characteristics, such as the fact that his strength doesn't change, even if his shaped is")
 
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Some hax can be overpowered with raw power, but that doesn't make it a weakness of the hax, it's a resistance but it depends on power. That's how I see it, resistances should be scaled.
 
FluffyCreatureZ said:
Some hax can be overpowered with raw power, but that doesn't make it a weakness of the hax, it's a resistance but it depends on power. That's how I see it, resistances should be scaled.
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That resistance won't help against a hax that doesn't depend on power.
 
Agree with op, it's obvious that the "hax resistance" is because of superior ki, also db hax resistance falls flat outside verse anyway since hax resistance only applied to ki based hax, which is shown with the mafuba, guldo's time stop, and buu's candy beam ( though vegito could still move, if it was total resistance, vegito should've been able to turn back to normal instantly.
 
Gilad_Hyperstar said:
This just means they overpowered a ki based hax with their own ki. I'm fine with them having resistance, but it should be noted that it's only for ki based erasure, especially since they only resisted because they overpowered a ki based hakai, with their own ki, meaning that at least in Dragon Ball, hakai is a ki attack that has the effect of erasing one's being, so limited resistance to ki based hakai is fine, as it's clear hakai only erases if the user has more ki than the victim
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By your logic, we should also note on other verse that they only resist magical hax, some wacky hax, or create a very bullshit environment that, somehow, DB resist only ki-based EE, but other verse resist EE can also resist all kind of EE, including ki-based EE from DB, even if somehow that opposite verse didn't have Ki

This practice will destroy verse equalization, since from the start, verse equalization mean we equalize thing that can be equalized so character from different verse can interact with each others so the battle can be debated. By this logic, we should note on every verse that each verse only have hax and resistance that specifically belong to said verse and will not work on other verse for the sake of fairness and balance
 
Vietthai96 said:
By your logic, we should also note on other verse that they only resist magical hax, some wacky hax, or create a very bullshit environment that, somehow, DB resist only ki-based EE, but other verse resist EE can also resist all kind of EE, including ki-based EE from DB, even if somehow that opposite verse didn't have Ki

This practice will destroy verse equalization, since from the start, verse equalization mean we equalize thing that can be equalized so character from different verse can interact with each others so the battle can be debated. By this logic, we should note on every verse that each verse only have hax and resistance that specifically belong to said verse and will not work on other verse for the sake of fairness and balance
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The difference is hax resistance in db is heavily reliant on ki, while other haxs don't rely that much on their power system.
 
This topic shouldn't even exist, what stupid logic is this, my God, there are days when people get over themselves, when will an administrator arrive and close this pointless topic?

Ki is literally part of the body of Dragon Ball characters, so logically it is a resistance and that's it, it doesn't have this weakness or anything else, several people disagreed with this topic, even three staff members, this business can already be closed and left as a rule, so as not to change the concepts of Dragon Ball anymore

What a shame, using such a lame excuse to remove resistance, let's go over a thousand verses and do the same thing, since they even use such things to mock hax
 
EE Hax < Resistance to EE Hax < Resistance Negation < Resistance to Resistance Negation < Infinite Layers of resistance to EE Hax

EE Hax is an ability that ignores the AP and durability of the target. A tier 10 character can kill a tier 2 character easily with EE Hax if they can't resist such an ability.

Getting resistance to EE Hax means you have a feat,statement, or ect of being able to resist an ability that completely ignores AP, durability, and ect. Resistance negation(EE Hax 2) is gained when a character is shown to be able to negate the resistance of the Hax and Hax the target. This is when layers start to stack on each other. Random 1 can resist EE Hax 1 in his verse but the EE Hax 2 of his verse negs him completely.

Continue forward, Resistance to Resistance Negation(EE Hax 3) adds another layer and makes thing ever more convoluted. Hax Does Hax things to Hax and the cycle continues. Random 1 can resist EE Hax 1, dies to EE Hax 2, and dies to EE Hax 3. Suddenly Random 1 becomes more haxed and becomes God Random 1. God Random 1 can resist EE Hax 1, resist EE Hax 2, and even resist EE Hax 3. He had become Haxed enough to resist a few more layers of EE Hax resistance. Suddenly God Random 1 gets hit by EE Hax 4 from his own verse and gets negged. This continues and creates layers on top of layers of resistance. Hax does Hax things to Hax and keeps getting out Haxed by Hax. Get it? This was silly.

Ki can be spiritual, mental, physical, and lyrical but it doesn't matter in the end because it's not Hax.

Hakai is infinity inferior to EE Hax 1 because it depends on and it's weak too AP. It can't created layered resistance because it works on the AP Chain. The way you know if Hakai will work is whoever has more AP. Hakai's chain scale is Toppo's < Sidra's < Beerus's and it's completely AP based. They can not erase some one a million times stronger because Hakai is affected and can be overpowered by AP. Beerus can not kill Goku if he keeps his power below Goku's. He needs to be stronger.

90 AP Toppo EE 0 < 95 AP Vegeta < 100 AP Sidra EE 0 < 105 AP Goku < 110 Beerus EE 0

The AP raises but the actual ability stays the same. The ability is able to be beaten by AP if you can overpower the AP of the Hakai attack.
 
If I'm not mistaken, bleach characters had limited EE for similar reasons. Character A deletes character B. I'm deleting it because it says I'm very strong, so A character gets limited EE, and here I resist EE because I strong ,I think that EE in DB should be handled in the same .sorry if i wrong
 
Gilad_Hyperstar said:
This just means they overpowered a ki based hax with their own ki. I'm fine with them having resistance, but it should be noted that it's only for ki based erasure, especially since they only resisted because they overpowered a ki based hakai, with their own ki, meaning that at least in Dragon Ball, hakai is a ki attack that has the effect of erasing one's being, so limited resistance to ki based hakai is fine, as it's clear hakai only erases if the user has more ki than the victim
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The foundation of your argument is implying we rate abilities in verses based on how they work in another universe.

I'll post the quote from the EE page again, though.

This ability's destructive power is not absolute, and one should not assume that it can erase the soul by default. It can only be judged by what it has accomplished, and one's resistances to the ability can only be judged by the specific method by which this effect is achieved.
Click to expand...
 
FluffyCreatureZ said:
The resistance is universal to all hax of that type, it's just that in db, resistance can be gained by just getting stronger than a certain point.
Click to expand...
Goku doesn't even have resistance to Hakai, much less to other verses' EE.

Whis can easily erase him with Hakai.
 
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