Removing hax resistances from Shadow, Espio, and Silver

[JJSliderman]

It's not headcanon if the game itself makes no indication the hax is even used by Ifrit, when we already have a basis to work off of in the other four routes to say when the hax is used.
The targeting is also less headcanon since we see all four times Ifrit use it is on a single target.

 

[Gabs22_Gamer]

And the planetary range for its hax comes from...

Literally it's on the same profile you are trying to make question towards...

 

[JJSliderman]

And of course, no sourcing of its hax range or potency

 

[Theuser789]

Can I just say that Hitchens Razor is it's own fallacy, because it's always a much stronger argument to just disprove something in the event that it could be true?

Like, dude, just answer his question.

He made the claims, he needs to provide evidence for his goddamm claims, it's that simple, I honestly don't care about what you "say" is a fallacy like, I want evidence, something he lacks

I already have, he refuses it, therefore instead of entertraining this I am asking for him to fulfil his burden of proof then to let him keep shifting it

This is obvious stonewalling because he can't prove anything he says, therefore this downgrade shouldn't go through because things shouldn't be downgraded because he doesn't like a rating

 

[Theuser789]

Literally this thread, he is saying the hax isn't valid and wants us to prove it is, instead of him himself proving it

Fallacy

One thing to keep in mind, is that even if someone is using a fallacy, it does not necessarily mean that their argument is not true. It merely means that they are attempting to argue for it improperly. These are the examples that apply to this wiki, with the original list written by Endless...

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Also this one since he keeps repeating his claims and ignoring our points

Fallacy

One thing to keep in mind, is that even if someone is using a fallacy, it does not necessarily mean that their argument is not true. It merely means that they are attempting to argue for it improperly. These are the examples that apply to this wiki, with the original list written by Endless...

vsbattles.fandom.com

 

[JJSliderman]

You literally have not proven anything about the hax potency or range, it's ability to go beyond single targets, or that the hax was used on Shadow/Silver/Espio to begin with. I'm being asked to prove something when you have given no evidence that your claims are right.

 

[Gabs22_Gamer]

And of course, no sourcing of its hax range or potency

The Ifrit's planetary range comes from his fires being capable of covering entire worlds in the process, pretty similar to how Dark Gaia disperses his energy across the entirety of the planet while in a incomplete state in a matter of moments.

 

[Theuser789]

You literally have not proven anything about the hax potency or range, it's ability to go beyond single targets, or that the hax was used on Shadow/Silver/Espio to begin with. I'm being asked to prove something when you have given no evidence that your claims are right.

Stop shifting the burden of proof, YOU made the initial claims, YOU need to prove it, that's literally it

 

[JJSliderman]

That doesn't really mean his hax should be on the same range or potency unless it's actually demonstrated that it can reach that far.

I made the claim that the hax was not used, which is shown in the game itself, as no mention of the hax is present when regarding the characters who "resisted" it. I made the claim that the hax wasn't passive because it didn't affect multiple characters, which is true. I made the claim it only targeted one character at a time, which is shown in the game as true. And I made the claim that saying the resistances changed between stories to be effective or ineffective when regarding the other characters was headcanon, which is true, because it's essentially the equivalent of fanfiction writing to say that "willpower" made a difference in the hax resistance.

 

[Theuser789]

I was about to say, the 'positive claim' is that they do have that hax to begin with, so burden of proof lands on whoever thought said hax/res was present to begin with (and in the case of multi-target claims, to what extent)

No, because that claim already existed before the thread, it's the premise, he made this thread with the purpose of debunking the same premise, therefore he needs evidence that the premise is incorrect, we haven't made a thread trying to add that on, he made a thread to remove it, so he needs reasons to remove it

This amount of stonewalling is simply because he can't prove it

 

[Gabs22_Gamer]

Tails: Look, Sonic! A few more pages must have fallen out of Eggman's book. It says, "The Ifrit held the power of destruction, and the power to blind one's soul..."”



Tails: Sonic! Eggman's been here all right. Look, it's another page from his book. "The Ifrit destroyed the entire..."”



Dr. Eggman: Rrgh. Fine then! I'll tell you... A monster known as the Ifrit is about to be released into this world. The portal to our dimension exists within a mysterious mansion... And the Ifrit must be stopped... Good luck. Ho ho ho!”



Shadow: ...Fine. The truth is, someone is trying the unleash the Ifrit into our world from another dimension. The key to opening the portal to that other dimension is the seven Chaos Emeralds.”



Dr. Eggman (transmission): Sorry for being so cryptic Shadow, but Eggman Nega is very sneaky. He apparently got some old files from my late grandfather, Professor Gerald. Those writings tell of an interdimensional beast called the Ifrit, and Eggman Nega wants to release it! The key to opening the portal to the Ifrit's dimension is the seven Chaos Emeralds. You must stop him.”



Shadow: What happened to this world? Has it already been destroyed by the Ifrit? Hmm. There's Eggman Nega's copy of Metal Sonic! I can't let him get away!”



Silver: Look. Since you trusted me. I'll tell you what's going on. Eggman Nega wants to unleash the Ifrit upon this world to destroy it.”



Silver: A world of flames and destruction. It's just like the future our own world faces. If I can just stop the Ifrit, though, then that future will never come to pass! There's no time. I've got to hurry!”

 

[JJSliderman]

None of that proved it’s hax range was planetary

 

[DragonLord]

None of that proved it’s hax range was planetary

It’s Flames and Lava covered the entire world (or possibly the entire dimension) and sustained even when not awoken, Eggman Nega planned to use those same Flames to destroy the Prime world and believed even the Weakened Ifrit could deal with the Heroes and there world

 

[JJSliderman]

OK.
How does that prove it’s “hax” range is planetary.
Answer the question.

 

[Gabs22_Gamer]

OK.
How does that prove it’s “hax” range is planetary.
Answer the question.

Literally see the example of Dark Gaia's energy dispersing across the entirety of the planet? The flames is literally the same thing.

 

[Theuser789]

I made the claim that the hax was not used, which is shown in the game itself, as no mention of the hax is present when regarding the characters who "resisted" it.

A hax (especially a passive one) doesn't need to be mentioned to be used (this is the only statment about it, everything else is visual) “Tails: Look, Sonic! A few more pages must have fallen out of Eggman's book. It says, "The Ifrit held the power of destruction, and the power to blind one's soul..."”, saying "it's not said so it's not used isn't a point

I made the claim that the hax wasn't passive because it didn't affect multiple characters, which is true.

This is a circular argument, you claim that the hax isn't passive because it didn't affect the characters, which only happens because you deny they have resistances

I made the claim it only targeted one character at a time, which is shown in the game as true.

Again this is only true on the basis your premise is true (that they don't reisist), therefore a circular argument, it isn't true by itself

And I made the claim that saying the resistances changed between stories to be effective or ineffective when regarding the other characters was headcanon, which is true, because it's essentially the equivalent of fanfiction writing to say that "willpower" made a difference in the hax resistance.

Except that isn't headcanon, in each story completely different events happen, you clearly haven't played the ******* game, here are the differences between each route

Sonic Rivals 2/Script (Sonic)

This is a script of the cutscenes from Sonic's storyline in Sonic Rivals 2. Sonic: Hey, Tails! How's it going? I heard you had something important to tell me. Tails: That's right! I discovered that a bunch of Chao have vanished. I think Eggman might be behind this... And he's on this island...

sonic.fandom.com

Sonic Rivals 2/Script (Tails)

This is a script of the cutscenes from Tails' storyline in Sonic Rivals 2. Sonic: Hey, Tails! How's it going? I heard you had something important to tell me. Tails: That's right! I discovered that a bunch of Chao have vanished. I think Eggman might be behind this... And he's on this island...

sonic.fandom.com

therefore things changing between stories is a FACT, also willpower and teamwork literally have already showed hax resistance in the Sonic series, Shadow's willpower allowed him to resist Black Doom's hax, Sonic's Dark Gaia, teamwork is actual source of power in Team Sonic Racing.

Your points are filled with fallacies and you keep stonewalling

You have ignored evidence (it's not passive because it breaks my premise), misconstructed arguments ("they are claiming they can shift from limited to full resistance!), doesn't show a single amount of proof, and more

 

[JJSliderman]

So why does the player character have more ability to resist the hax than the rival character other than plot contrivance?

You use circular a lot when ignoring how in the game itself, we only see Ifrit haxxing one character at a time, in all four times. Therefore burden of proof is on you to say that it can hax multiple characters at once.

Considering how every other character who was haxxed gave an indication that it did happen to them, I think there is enough reason to say that we need indication the hax was attempted on the characters who are given the resistances to say it’s a true resistance. This isn’t shown, therefore there’s less credibility that the resistance exists.
And again, if it was passive and multi-targeting, there should be no reason it doesn’t affect both characters to at least some degree, instead of one character showing no signs they were even affected

 

[Joycap]

He made the claims, he needs to provide evidence for his goddamn claims, it's that simple, I honestly don't care about what you "say" is a fallacy like, I want evidence, something he lacks

Then practice what you preach. He's asking for 'hax range', and all I can see from what you've posted is 'ones soul' (meaning one individual). Proof that this possession can be applied to multiple people at one time is the thing that seems to want to make or break this thread.

If Ifrit has planetary range, show me where more than one person gets possessed / insert hax, when an attack of planetary range actually goes off.

 

[DragonLord]

If Ifrit has planetary range, show me where more than one person gets possessed / insert hax, when an attack of planetary range actually goes off.

Ifrit’s flames they generate go across the entire world, hell even up in the stars, as the moment there awakened they send you into the air and seemingly into space where Fire is covering the stars

and all I can see from what you've posted is 'ones soul' (meaning one individual).

“One’s Soul” is not a statement of range, weapons that can attack multiple people can still be accurately described to X one’s X as in certain situations they will attack one person, I can say a Gun Will Pierce ones heart and still be correct even if it’s equally possibly I could Pierce two hearts in one or multiple shots

I’ve also seen no debunks on the Hax being passive, which makes it so that even if it’s single target, that would still mean Shadow and etc resist it as it would automatically go off anyway

 

[Gabs22_Gamer]

Ifrit’s flames they generate go across the entire world, hell even all of space, as the moment there awakened they send you into the air and seemingly into space where Fire is covering the stars

Kinda similar to how Dark Gaia disperses his energy on the planet, this is very blatant by itself.

 

[JJSliderman]

It being passive was only because the Ifrit is mindless and because it does it as soon as it wakes up

The second isn’t enough evidence on its own because there’s no timeframe given between the hax and Ifrit’s awakening, and the first is maybe true but Ifrit would need to actually have no capacity for higher thought to actually make it not thought-based.

The evidence for the hax being multi-target is also weak, characters can have different potency ranges for their different abilities and all this really shows is that Ifrit’s fire can eventually cover a planet.

 

[DragonLord]

The evidence for the hax being multi-target is also weak, characters can have different potency ranges for their different abilities and all this really shows is that Ifrit’s fire can eventually cover a planet.

“Eventually”, The Flames appear right when the boss start, it’s not on the rest of Chaotic Inferno

 

[DragonLord]

It being passive was only because the Ifrit is mindless and because it does it as soon as it wakes up

And?, just saying the points doesn’t debunk them, in fact more the dialogue seems to imply Ifrit wasn’t there, in the Tails version he can’t even tell Ifrit is coming out until Sonic tells him

 

[JJSliderman]

“Eventually”, The Flames appear right when the boss start, it’s not on the rest of Chaotic Inferno

Literally just the range of its fire attacks, not it’s mind or soul hax potency.

and just because the characters can’t see Ifrit doesn’t mean Ifrit can’t see them and consciously hax them.

 

[Joycap]

Ifrit’s flames they generate go across the entire world, hell even up in the stars, as the moment there awakened they send you into the air and seemingly into space where Fire is covering the stars

“One’s Soul” is not a statement of range, weapons that can attack multiple people can still be accurately described to X one’s X as in certain situations they will attack one person, I can say a Gun Will Pierce ones heart and still be correct even if it’s equally possibly I could Pierce two hearts in one or multiple shots

OK, let me put this another way... are the flames what posses people?
From where I'm sitting, it isn't.

 

[DragonLord]

Literally just the range of its fire attacks, not it’s mind or soul hax potency.

It’s there Passive fire generation, there spreading energy across the entire planet and possibly space, unless you can prove the other abilities wouldn’t match I think it’s more likely the range between Hax would be comparable

and just because the characters can’t see Ifrit doesn’t mean Ifrit can’t see them and consciously hax them.

Prove Ifrit can see them

 

[Theuser789]

So why does the player character have more ability to resist the hax than the rival character other than plot contrivance?

Because they want you to play as it, same reason why you play as them for 2 acts and fight all the bosses with them

You use circular a lot when ignoring how in the game itself, we only see Ifrit haxxing one character at a time, in all four times. Therefore burden of proof is on you to say that it can hax multiple characters at once.

Again, this argument of "only does one because the other doesn't resist", which is circular, the burden on proof is on you because you made the initial claim that it only works on one, when characters get worried that the Ifrit can take both
Tails: Eggman said that the all-powerful Ifrit was from this world. I need to do something about the Ifrit before Eggman gets to it.Sonic: Tails, run! The Ifrit is alive!Tails: Oh, no! Are you sure?Sonic: Don't worry, I'll handle it. Tails, get back to the door before--Tails: Sonic! What's wrong?Sonic: Yes. Master. I will take care of Tails.Tails: Oh no! Now I've got to fight the Ifrit and Sonic!

Considering how every other character who was haxxed gave an indication that it did happen to them, I think there is enough reason to say that we need indication the hax was attempted on the characters who are given the resistances to say it’s a true resistance. This isn’t shown, therefore there’s less credibility that the resistance exists.
And again, if it was passive and multi-targeting, there should be no reason it doesn’t affect both characters to at least some degree, instead of one character showing no signs they were even affected

Again, more circular scaling, why would they show signs of a hax if they are resisting it? The hax seems to not have a sign (characters get possesed mid speech) so why would it show a sign if a character resisted it? If they are affected then they don't resist it, there is a reason it wouldn't affect another, because they resisted it, resistance is literally showing no signs of being affected

Then practice what you preach. He's asking for 'hax range', and all I can see from what you've posted is 'ones soul' (meaning one individual). Proof that this possession can be applied to multiple people at one time is the thing that seems to want to make or break this thread.

1: I didn't make that claim. 2: He made the initial claim the hax only affects one person. 3: Therefore he needs explicilty proof it only affects one, because he said it did, saying "it only affected one so it's only one is the range" is dum, using this logic ifrit's hax is zero in other routes because he doesn''t affect anyone

So, atm, Shadow, Silver, and Espio (games) are given resistances to mind manip, possession, and soul binding, with the justification of resisting the Ifrit. Now I don't have problem with Ifrit having this hax, moreso that there isn't really any indication the aforementioned characters resisted it.

This resistance isn't applied to the other Rivals characters because they are affected, but when they are affected, they show text on screen clarifying as such. And even though the player character in those scenes isn't affected, that's likely due to gameplay purposes (or maybe the Ifrit just chose not to hax these characters).

While the Ifrit's first move was hax in those scenes, no showing of said hax was present in the Shadow/Silver/Espio/Metal Sonic scenarios, likely due to the existence of Metal 3.0 as an antagonist character already fighting against the players. But there's no real reason to say the Ifrit's hax was resisted by these four characters when, again, there's no indication of it using the hax, and the only argument of why it would use the hax was that it would be inconsistent with the Ifrit's other portrayals (even though Ifrit not haxxing the other four characters when they are playable and lack the resistance is also a plot hole)

The resistances to mind and soul manipulation and possession should be removed from Shadow, Silver, and Espio's profiles.

the OP literally shows no reasons for a downgrade to happen, let's go step by step

The ONLY argument provided is that they aren't show to be affected, and therefore they can't resist it because we don't see the Ifrit hax them

Main problem is that the Ifrit doesn't have a visual for it's hax

Let's look at all the time the Ifrit hax people on screen:





Absolutely no visual, therefore we can't tell when the Ifrit hax people, only when they are haxed, and if the characters resist it, then they wouldn't show to be haxed, the only other visual is in gameplay when the character is already haxed, it wouldn't appear because they resist it

This is the only real argument made, everything else is shifting the burden of proof, when the OP itself has a gigantic flawed argument

Td.lr The Ifrit has no visual for it's hax, so claiming he didn't use because we don't see it is wrong, because we can't see it

 

[Joycap]

1: I didn't make that claim. 2: He made the initial claim the hax only affects one person. 3: Therefore he needs explicilty proof it only affects one, because he said it did, saying "it only affected one so it's only one is the range" is dum, using this logic ifrit's hax is zero in other routes because he doesn''t affect anyone

That's actually rather disingenuous. You made the initial claim that Ifrit possessed this soul manip on such a scale, which warranted a response from JJ. So if you're going to refute this, show him where multi-man possession at one time actually came from.

Personally, I couldn't care less if it's one or multi. I'm just sick of threads that talk past each other.

 

[Theuser789]

There we go, the resistances shouldn't be removed because the argument against them is invalid

 

[Joycap]

There we go, the resistances shouldn't be removed because the argument against them is invalid

Oh, is that what I said? Gee, who knew I could develop dementia at 21!

IAS read what I said again. Show me where to find it if you're adamant.

 

[Theuser789]

Oh, is that what I said? Gee, who knew I could develop dementia at 21!

IAS read what I said again. Show me where to find it if you're adamant.

Dude what? I am replying to my own comment debunking, you are so busy trying to defend your friend from nothing that you are saying non sense

 

[JJSliderman]

I know there’s no visual indicator, but they could have easily chosen a way to show the characters were struggling against the hax to prove they can overcome it. They already did with other instances like in Shadow the Hedgehog, they could have indicated it with grunts or “get out of my head!” or something like that, instead of the characters having no reaction to this creature trying to cloud their thoughts.

The argument of “the characters believed it could affect both of them” makes no sense because the characters didn’t know whether Ifrit could hax multiple characters or not. All they knew is that it could use that hax. All we have to go off of are Ifrit’s showings, which are affecting only one character at a time.

You also just admitted that plot convenience is the only reason why player 1 is resistant, which opens up the possibility of plot convenience that the characters who are never under threat of hax just were not targeted because of the existence of Metal V3 as an existing rival character not requiring the hax to be present.

It’s there Passive fire generation, there spreading energy across the entire planet and possibly space, unless you can prove the other abilities wouldn’t match I think it’s more likely the range between Hax would be comparable



Prove Ifrit can see them

Spreading a fire attack around is not the same as spreading hax around, it needs to be proven the character’s hax range is on that level like with Dark Gaia, and the existing hax range feats of Ifrit don’t back up them being planetary. If they were planetary, then Eggman Nega likely would have been affected too, but he wasn’t.

You’re also asking me to prove that Ifrit could see them when you can’t prove he couldn’t see them. Seeing was just an example.

 

[Joycap]

Dude what? I am replying to my own comment debunking, you are so busy trying to defend your friend from nothing that you are saying non sense

Then why did you put it in a separate comment / attempted double post when you could have put that in the initial batch reply?

 

[Gilad_Hyperstar]

The argument of “the characters believed it could affect both of them” makes no sense because the characters didn’t know whether Ifrit could hax multiple characters or not. All they knew is that it could use that hax. All we have to go off of are Ifrit’s showings, which are affecting only one character at a time.

Do you have any proof for your claims that it specifically can only hax one of them at a time? When that clearly not what happened since we see many characters getting haxed by Ifrit

You can't come with such claims and pretend they're facts without any proof because unlike you, we actually showed you proof

 

[DragonLord]

Spreading a fire attack around is not the same as spreading hax around, it needs to be proven the character’s hax range is on that level like with Dark Gaia, and the existing hax range feats of Ifrit don’t back up them being planetary. If they were planetary, then Eggman Nega likely would have been affected too, but he wasn’t.

1: again, you have to proof the Range doesn’t transfer, Ifrit already has range that goes across the planet (and happens passively btw), why wouldn’t his other Hax?

2: Eggman Nega was the guy summoning it in the first place, he already knew what would happen and would absolutely prepare for it

 

[Joycap]

Do you have any proof for your claims that it specifically can only hax one of them at a time? When that clearly not what happened since we see many characters getting haxed by Ifrit

What he's asking is if this possession of multiple characters goes off in the same moment. Why, what was your frame of reference?

 

[ShakeResounding]

Then why did you put it in a separate comment / attempted double post when you could have put that in the initial batch reply?

Bro, this is basically asking why he types and posts the way he does. Get off of it. It's Like Asking Why People Capitalize Every Word In A Sentence. They just do. Just forget it and move on from the pointless subject.

 

[JJSliderman]

1: again, you have to proof the Range doesn’t transfer, Ifrit already has range that goes across the planet (and happens passively btw), why wouldn’t his other Hax?

2: Eggman Nega was the guy summoning it in the first place, he already knew what would happen and would absolutely prepare for it

Why should I have to prove that the hax range is planetary when the feats of the hax are far below planetary.

 

[DragonLord]

Why should I have to prove that the hax range is planetary when the feats of the hax are far below planetary.

Feats are not limitations, just because Frieza blew up a island doesn’t mean he can’t blow up a planet, specially when we have evidence he could, Ifrit already has examples of Planetry range (a Planetry range they did casually and passively), why would his Mind Hax be different

and you still haven’t debunked it being passive which would still grant the resistance anyway

 

[JJSliderman]

Because he could only hax one person at a time in all the showings he had of using the ability.
It’s not like Beerus has ever hakai’d a whole universe.