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Removal of the "Low multiverse level after an unknown amount of sun dips" from Rebirth Superman key

ZellTemplar55

ZellTemplar55

359
14
To put it bluntly there is no logical reason for it, red flags pop up immediately, first off, unknown amount? You can't even attempt to quantify something if you don't know the amount, second, stars have finite energy, he cannot get an infinite boost from it, it fails the common sense test horribly, third, the thing referenced is a outlier, once again my point is proven that some characters get upgrades based on a singular feat while other who have shown consistency (Vision for example) are given the shaft
 
How is it an outlier. He was amped from many suns and World Forger and the colorist both confirmed Superman broke his multiverse and cracked the 6th dimension. We know it was at least 52 universes at minimum since Forger was trying to replace the main multiverse which usually has 52 universes. The feat sounds absurd to you but it was confirmed that he did crack the multiverse, its not vague at all, and he was powered from sundipping and memories of his family gathered into one superpunch thst everyone was banking on to save the multiverse. It doesnt seem as bad as people make it out to be. There are far more absurd things in comics no one conplains about
 
It's an outlier and isn't consistent at all, again a finite source of energy cannot provide an infinite increase, did you even read what I wrote? Every logical thinking person disagrees with it entirely, with a character like Superman or even any character with a long history and a large amount of feats, listing a single feat is nowhere near enough justification to warrant a ranking, either add similar feats to add to the justification (which still wouldn't be consistent enough to warrant a ranking) or remove it entirely (which is what should be done)
 
1. It should be obvious after decades of feats that the amount of solar energy is not exactly equal to his total power output. Superman could probably use the solar energy within a calculator to destroy a mountain. Our sun could never provide him with the energy hes used over the years if it were a equal give and take.

2. Hes never been given, after years of sundipping, any cap in the boosts that he recieves from it. This is also the first time hes also sundipped multiple times in one instance. Its unfounded for you to call a sun dipping feat inconsistent, when you have nothing else to compare it too.
 
Honestly, I do think any feat for modern Superman being higher than 4-B is an outlier at least on his own powers. Dipping in multiple suns to jump from 4-B to 2-C does sound iffy, but there have been weirder comparisons. That being said, it was implied most of his power came from Mr Mxy and that Matt was going to write a revision for that. Superman can perform impressive Tier 2 feats when powered by Mr Mxy, but it's implied he cannot naturally do the feats on his own power.
 
I think we'll have to wait for further information to conclude that. All Mxy said was that the 5th Dimensional energies would allow Superman to enter the 6th Dimension. Said energy didn't seem to help him in his fight with the World Forger the first time around, but does activate when he goes into the suns?
 
That's kind of the main point, is that often times, it's like Mr Mxy plays the role of "The Writer" and dictates the fights Superman enters. In which it can vary to when he loses fights to Batman to when he peats Multiversal beings. And even dipping in multiple suns to turn the tables sounds like something Mxy planned to happen.
 
I'd be more keen to believe that if Mxy didn't go into this completely blind. He admitted himself he had no idea whether they would win or lose because what happens in the 6th Dimension is beyond his purview. Don't get me wrong, I think its possible, but its a speculation the story itself doesn't currently hint at. Like everyone else, I think Mxy just believed he would find a way, finding victory through hope, not a game of 6D chess per se.
 
Mr Mxy is also the same guy who often says even he doesn't know the full extent of his own powers. He's basically a Looney Toons parody who likes to toy with everyone he faces, he's also sometimes like written stories with his eyes closed just to be surprised by what he wrote.
 
Nowhere in the comic was Supermans feats credited to Mxy. This is like the super sneeze from the silver age. Both times Mxy did not amp him for these feats like people tend to claim. Why bother amping himself with like a gazillion suns if Mxy could have amped him to fight Forger anyways. The simplest explanations are best, Superman just became really powerful with his consecutive sun dips and MFTL+++++++++ Punch to Forger. Y'all are really underestimating big blue.
 
The problem with claiming outlier for this feat is that it doesn't scale to any other form of Superman, or to any other character besides World Forger, who has his own feats on this level. Contrary to popular belief sun dipping is something that has only occurred a few times across ALL continuities, and never has Superman sun dipped through over half a dozen stars before.
 
Silver Age Superman has concrete Universal feats on his own, and his Super Sneeze is just a low end feat. But Post-Crisis and Post-Flashpoint are both consistently way weaker than that. Matt was the one who loosely mentioned the Mxy for the multiple Sun dips, not me. And also mentioned something about a key. Also, that "6th Dimension" statement mentioned above was only achieved via Mr Mxy and it is still mentioned that it's because of Mxy that Superman can do anything beyond Tier 4.
 
@Dragon

I believe Matt said he was waiting to see what will play out in the coming confrontation between Superman and Doctor Manhattan before making a revision thread for a completely separate key.

To clarify about this feat in particular, Mr. Mxyz infused Superman with 5D energy which allowed him to even be there in the first place. However, in the issue where the feat happened Superman started off nearly drained to death of energy, and the sun dipping happened without any mention of Mr. Mxyz's energy helping him out.
 
Like others have said, Superman is obviously not restrained by how much Solar Energy his source has. His powers are not approximate to what he absorbs. That's the way it's been throughout his entire existence, even from his conception (Original Superman was blowing out Suns with ease halfway through the Golden Age) and both him, Superboy Prime, and Pre-Crisis were producing Universal level feats despite getting energy from one sun at a time. Hell, old school Kryptonians didn't even sun dip, Yellow Suns were just on switches, and Red Suns were off switches.

Comics/Cartoons/Manga aren't confined directly to real world physics, same reason a guy with the "proportional strength of a Spider" can perform Multi City Block to Small Town level feats or why you can break the speed of light like it's nothing.

We've NEVER seen Superman pull of a Sun Dip to this magnitude, so it can't really be an outlier since it's the only feat this level of the character has had. It's like saying Super Saiyan God Goku can't be Universe level because Namek Saga Goku couldn't. He's obviously working on a much higher level than normal.

Also, like Prince said, Superman was near dead and didn't seem to have any additional energy from Mxy before he did the Sun Dips, and the pages seem to direclty imply that it was the Sun Dips that gave him the energy he needed to defeat World Forger, nothing to do with Mxyzptlk in that particular instance.
 
Jared1111 said:
Comics/Cartoons/Manga aren't confined directly to real world physics, same reason a guy with the "proportional strength of a Spider" can perform Multi City Block to Small Town level feats--
Click to expand...
I hate to shit on what you're saying, but we were technically supposed to downgrade the character in question a long time ago. And to my recollection, the Small Town level feat he has is based on the old KE standards, which have since changed and are about to impact the character significantly.
 
We should keep comparisons to Dragon Ball out of this as that's a much more linear verse where Goku constantly gets stronger at each season. DC Comics is not linear and yes his powered is fueled by solar radiation and I know it's a power up he doesn't normally have access to. But it's still something fairly inconsistent.

And yeah, MrKing is right that Spider-Man is going to be downgraded.
 
The fact stands that the rating is based off one feat which isn't consistent, that on top of as Jared said "We've NEVER seen Superman pull off a sun dip of this magnitude" that is flat out saying it is indeed an outlier, that is an outlier no matter how you look at it unless several other feats come along those lines of power, that is the fact that it is an outlier until other supporting feats are provided
 
Superman would basically just be a normal human roughly if it weren't for his dependance on solar power, and he's usually portrayed as less then Tier 4, but has enough Tier 4 feats for it to be consistent. Not to mention there similar cases in which Superman literally needed to be powered by "Enough solar radiation to destroy half a galaxy" to perform a 4-A+ feat. Which he then fainted and went back to more normalized power levels afterward. And Superman also regularly needs a sun dip to do the Infinite Mass Punch, which in turn leaves him in a near death state every time he performs it.
 
@Mr King

Oh okay, well either way my point still stands. At worst he's still about Multi City Block level (unless that's being downgraded too) so that's way higher than the proportional strength of a spider. Point is that comic logic doesn't line up directly to real world.

@Dark

I think the DBZ comparison is pretty ok in this case. as both characters got a huge power upgrade to their abilities (Sun Dip and God Saiyan powers), but we don't exclude Goku's Universe level shaking feat because "it's beyond what he could do before". Superman constantly gets stronger over time as well, in the early days he couldn't even take a Nuke without nearly killing himself, and considered FTL travel impossible. By the end of his run he produces Solar System level attacks, moves at speeds that measure in the QUADRILLIONS xFTL at least, and characters like SP1M or even the alterante Strange Visitor prove he's ever evolving. It's been stated that Sun Dipping, even for a little bit, DRASTICALLY increases Superman's abilities, so absorbing that much solar energy over a short period of time (potentially millions) could do a hell of a lot to increase his power.

Edit: To add on to this, Kingdom Come Superman is directly shown to be way stronger than Post-Crisis from absorbing more Solar Radiation. So the linear power increase does exist for Supermen.

Superman's also a pretty inconsistent characters if we're being fair.

@Zell

I don't think you really understand what an outlier means. "An Outlier is an event or incident that is considered to be completely and irreconcilably inconsistent with a character, entity, group, or series' normal displayed level of power."

Keyword NORMAL. This massive Sun Dip is not normal, nor does it contradict any of his other feats because he's never been this strong before or absorbed this much energy before. Nothing contradicts it outside the fact that billions of times Sun+ energy couldn't produce 2-C levels of power... which is fine as that's been the norm for Superman since forever. Pre-Crisis is 2-C and he doesn't even need billions of suns.
 
With all respect, there are some misconceptions here.

"Not to mention there similar cases in which Superman literally needed to be powered by "Enough solar radiation to destroy half a galaxy" to perform a 4-A+ feat."

  • The feat itself was Superman absorbing that level of energy, and it wasn't solar radiation it was called anti-sunlight.
"And Superman also regularly needs a sun dip to do the Infinite Mass Punch, which in turn leaves him in a near death state every time he performs it."

  • Superman doesn't regularly do such a thing at all, you're thinking of a single instance from a different continuity than the one this thread is discussing.
And finally, historically speaking, actually sun dipping is treated as massively different from just taking in extra solar radiation, which is much more common. And this instance goes beyond even that, it's simply different from any of the few other times in any continuity that Superman has sun dipped.
 
How often has Superman sun dipped in canon I only know of the instance in Our Worlds at War and when he becomes Superman Prime 1 Million
 
DC One Million is a different continuity and different character. And even that version is only 4-A. But there was that time he spend 15 minutes inside the center of the sun which gave him the strength to effortlessly move a planet; which is consistent with him struggling to lift planets even with help from Wonder Woman, Martian Manhunter and Green Lantern before said instance.
 
https://comicvine.gamespot.com/supe...oint-superman-sun-dipping-chronology-1813967/

Here's a pretty extensive list of Superman Sun Dipping, nothing too impressive in terms of feats at first (nothing 2-C), but the fact that even minor dips or near flyby's of the Sun can make it so that he can take on the entire Justice League (when before he mentions it would have killed him) show that it's pretty clear that an extensive Sun Dip over thousands/millions of Suns would turn him into a freakin monster. Like throwing 10 Gallons of gasoline on a campfire.

Hell, SP1M sundipped for thousands of years, and he's basically a God.

@Dark

Well technically, he's only 4-A from directly scaling to Post-Crisis Kal Kent. We don't know the full the extent of his powers at that time. Rebirth (or really canon) SP1M would easily be 2-C from scaling to Normal Supes (as he was stated to be have powers far beyond any metahuman ever).
 
I know Prime 100000 is featless and that he's 4-A scaling from Kal Kent. But he does also have Anti-Feats that portray him as less than Universal. But I still think Matt has the overall best sense of judgement regarding the topic and I recall him loosely having something to say about the World Forger feat.

And while not going to take everything FanofRPGs said offsite literally, he did say something in concern about it.
 
Anyway I can't stay on any longer, so to summarize why I oppose the removal, at least from the arguments presented in this thread:

  • It can't be rightly called an outlier since it's the only feat in that state Superman has.
  • The argument about the stars not containing that level of energy was addressed and debunked.
  • To call this inconsistent requires comparing different continuities to this one which I don't think is right. And also requires ignoring that this was a unique version of a sun dip.
  • While I'm unsure about its relevance toward the feat, the point stated by Matthew in the thread where this got added, that Supes has been infused with 5D energy.
  • This is an indexing site first and foremost, not a battleboard. I don't think it should be ignored that Rebirth Superman (not other versions of Superman) can reach this level of power by sun-dipping through at minimum half a dozen and more likely a galaxy's worth of stars.
  • And finally, according to the OP, this was only even brought up out of spite because Vision hasn't yet been upgraded.
 
There were at least eight sun dips observed on-panel. Given there was an entire galaxy of stars, it is possible there could have been more which we didn't see, but we could change the description to "at least eight suns, likely more" from "an unknown numbers".
 
Superman obviously outputs more energy than the amount he takes in from the sun (probably his cells being efficient at defying physics), even doing things like breaking a mountain is beyond the low levels of solar light he gets from Earth's atmosphere so I don't know why people are arguing the sundip boost doesn't make sense.
 
About low multiversal feat. According to this wiki Characters who can destroy and/or create up to 1000 universal space-time continuums. I'm confused superman punch created a giant crater. We can see stars were unaffected in the background by that explosion apart from the earth, which has a giant hole. World forger masterpiece was destroyed to that I agree as all the stories of the characters that live there were cease to exists when crises anvil destroyed. But space-time and physical matter still were unaffected in that universe, and they later teleported to current reality. OBD gave similar ratings, but they make more sense as they said superman punched out world forger who is no weaker than the anti monitor. Going by this wiki all members of justice league should have low multiversal level durability as they were all fighting just outside when superman destroyed 1000's of space time continuum. I hope i didn't offend you guys.
 
Well, the feat was not portrayed in a "realistic" manner obviously, but the intention was clearly that Superman shattered the spacetime structure of 52 universes.
 
This is probably only a very temporary power up though as it would be very inconsistent for every single Justice League member to be Tier 2 based on one feat that required a massive power up/outside help. That's probably why "With multiple sun dips" is included for now.
 
Yeah, every other time Supes has had a sun Dip it wore off eventually. Only exception was P1M but he basically lives in the Sun.
 
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