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Yeah, if it were just the shockwaves i would have said it could be hyperbolic but superman also claims to be able to destroy it
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DC Comics - Superman Universal Feats Discussion (Continuation)
- Thread starter Emirp sumitpo
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Agreed he definitely claims to be able to destroy it, which is honestly better evidence than others that I have seen, so I think it's good supporting evidence, but I am cautious to assign too much value to a simple claim that wasn't proven.
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I would like to point out that as he claims to be able to destroy it, he's even powering up a Super flare (his heat vision comes on, then his whole body glows. He even used a Super Flare earlier in the same storyline to knock Phantom Zoners off himself, and to KO Zaar so it is an ability he can still use)
Hellbeast
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I would agree but the fact both are in the same arc/issue is pretty telling for me
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Credits to Highfather for some of these, he helped cut down the amount of stuff to address.
In the context of it, hyperbole makes no narrative sense and they aren’t in a city, they’re in the heart of Mageddon. The AOE has no relevance to the point, and chains made from the Old God Mageddon being beyond 4D is quite possible, especially considering they're restraining Superman, who we're arguing is tier 2.
Kryptonian tech can fashion all sorts of things, Sunstone crystals can control celestial bodies and rewrite memories and gift powers. Weirdness in a Superman context isn’t much of a refutation, but if he agrees if can be dropped.
"As for the destruction of the Universe being heat death, this is never implied at all. All we know is it's a black hole that collapsed the Universe, so this comes from nowhere. Also, even if it was a Universal amount of entropy, that's still a Universal durability feat, the same way surviving a fire that can burn down Universes would be Universal and not just heat resistance.
From Death's description, it's very likely a physical feat, though I can see reason to doubt this, so at the very least this should be a strong supporting feat for Low 2-C. As for the Heat Death argument, it's really baseless and mostly irrelevant."
There's really no reason to say it's Heat Death, but even if it was Universal entropy, that'd be a Universal durability feat still.
The "cosmic wonkiness involving Superman" point doesn't seem to have any basis. All we see is him surviving the attack, and it's not like Superman resisted Death due to his place in the DC Universe, he was harmed many times throughout the issue and had to overpower him to win. Superman has also died before, with New 52 Supes being an example, the Crisis reboot, etc. While the concept of Superman can die, variants of him in the Multiverse can.
"As far as him being a mini-Universe goes, well obviously yeah. No one argues he's literally Universal in size. The point is he's a compressed Universe, we know this since it's said he's a supermatter (Seven Soldiers: Frankenstein #4), something like a Supersolid, which relates to condensed matter physics. This makes sense since he's no longer a baby Universe like as Qwewq, but now is an adult."
The "could have grown large enough" thing wasn't the main evidence, rather a refutation/alternate interpretation to an argument that he can't be Universal.
"Lay claim to the Universe-- for so long as it lasts. "Once they achieve their goal approximately five-point-seven seconds."
"The hub world point doesn't make much sense, since it just means that it's a central area that connects to many others, not that it's the only place he can destroy Universes. Suggesting it's space-time hax is also silly, since as far as we see it's just a power beam."
Saying it's a function of being in the Archive feels like headcanon, and an interpretation made with zero sourcing from the comic.
As the others above have had said, there's no reason not to believe this. As the OP explains, there's no reason for Clark to lie, his senses have been shown to have Universal ranges in WiTS, the statement he can destroy it supports it, intent, etc
As brought up numerous times, including the opening, it's mainly attributed to the heroes when brought back up in Doomsday Wars. Spectre came in at the end after Waverider had been stopped by Parallax's distraction. Waverider and Damage had nothing to do with the power, just turning it into chronal energy and it exploding through Damage. Waverider was confident the heroes would have enough energy, and Parallax seemed to agree by saying they were creating their own Universe, so before Spectre intervened, there was clearly a lot of energy towards it.
It's mainly there for the 4D statement, not the limitless 4D energy, that's more-so supporting it. It hurting Mageddon, who was threatening the Universe.
In the context of it, hyperbole makes no narrative sense and they aren’t in a city, they’re in the heart of Mageddon. The AOE has no relevance to the point, and chains made from the Old God Mageddon being beyond 4D is quite possible, especially considering they're restraining Superman, who we're arguing is tier 2.
It having infinite space compressed within should be enough justification for Infinite mass.
Kryptonian tech can fashion all sorts of things, Sunstone crystals can control celestial bodies and rewrite memories and gift powers. Weirdness in a Superman context isn’t much of a refutation, but if he agrees if can be dropped.
Wanna show me where I said it was like the Big Crunch? The heat death thing was addressed here:
"As for the destruction of the Universe being heat death, this is never implied at all. All we know is it's a black hole that collapsed the Universe, so this comes from nowhere. Also, even if it was a Universal amount of entropy, that's still a Universal durability feat, the same way surviving a fire that can burn down Universes would be Universal and not just heat resistance.
From Death's description, it's very likely a physical feat, though I can see reason to doubt this, so at the very least this should be a strong supporting feat for Low 2-C. As for the Heat Death argument, it's really baseless and mostly irrelevant."
There's really no reason to say it's Heat Death, but even if it was Universal entropy, that'd be a Universal durability feat still.
The "cosmic wonkiness involving Superman" point doesn't seem to have any basis. All we see is him surviving the attack, and it's not like Superman resisted Death due to his place in the DC Universe, he was harmed many times throughout the issue and had to overpower him to win. Superman has also died before, with New 52 Supes being an example, the Crisis reboot, etc. While the concept of Superman can die, variants of him in the Multiverse can.
He’s using the phrases collectively. Irons is the Aegis and the Aegis has that power. He’s explaining to Superman what all entails from a swap deal for Irons. There’s other statements in the arc, like the claim he is wielding the power of Entropy, so nothing in the arc moderately goes against this. I don't see any reason why a reprogrammed Imperiex Probe, something that basically just shoots energy and explodes, is doing something not attributable to AP here.
This is addressed as more so being compressed.
"As far as him being a mini-Universe goes, well obviously yeah. No one argues he's literally Universal in size. The point is he's a compressed Universe, we know this since it's said he's a supermatter (Seven Soldiers: Frankenstein #4), something like a Supersolid, which relates to condensed matter physics. This makes sense since he's no longer a baby Universe like as Qwewq, but now is an adult."
The "could have grown large enough" thing wasn't the main evidence, rather a refutation/alternate interpretation to an argument that he can't be Universal.
They wield his power. I feel like this was explained in either scan, and would be explained if you checked the cited comic
"Lay claim to the Universe-- for so long as it lasts. "Once they achieve their goal approximately five-point-seven seconds."
Previously addressed, specifically in the OP.
"The hub world point doesn't make much sense, since it just means that it's a central area that connects to many others, not that it's the only place he can destroy Universes. Suggesting it's space-time hax is also silly, since as far as we see it's just a power beam."
There is no bigger Superman, that's just normal Superman. The small one is the alternate Universe one. You can tell from his different Symbol.
Saying it's a function of being in the Archive feels like headcanon, and an interpretation made with zero sourcing from the comic.
None of this downscales Auterio.io, Lex Luthor is one of the smartest characters with tons of powerful weapons. This was also when he was swindled down to one of his worlds, whereas Superman beat him in the Archive of Worlds. The same arc implies Auterio.io has no way to beat Superman and relies on Kryptonite, so no sort of ability Auterio has can defeat Supes, and it's also brought up how he can burn them if he has issues with them. Regardless, this is still a lot of headcanon.
For one, this was a pretty long project, so it’s kinda insulting to suggest this was a random haul with minimal research, since all feats were analyzed. Two, the Aztek feat has no reason to be invalid other than asserting hyperbole with no basis and not even quoting the exact area where they are. Third, many, many feats were cut out while looking through what was useable.
Superman has always absorbed energy, while the examples are from later on, they're not retcons that change anything about the character. Rebirth Superman is literally just Post Crisis, and New 52 is pointed out to absorb radiation slower than Rebirth. And either way, this doesn't address how things would fit into the varies tier.
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Is there a scan we can reference for this?
I don't think it has infinite mass because the Tesseract was on the ground without damaging it.
Do we consider, by default, an object with an infinite space inside of it to have infinite mass? Take the example from Futurama's universe in a box.
It's stated word for word in the comic entropy is happening.
Per the comic panels, the cosmos is going through entropy. Dead stars collapsing inward, their energy sputtering and fading. All things, all matter in creation, dissolving, disintegrating. Stars wink out one by one. In the end, only the black hole from the last star is left with Superman, each nuclear flash weaker than the one before.
According to other Staff, surviving the heat death of the universe is a hax feat rather than durability.
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Dosen't even look like it got concluded but ask let's as @Qawsedf234 and @Planck69 since they are staff that are knowledgeable and commented in the thread.
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Take for example a bag of holding. The bag has an infinite space inside of it. Does the bag have infinite mass in this context?
Do we consider an object with an infinite pocket dimension inside to have infinite mass by default?
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also have a question on this feat, it seems these endless realities are both literal and real
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i think it depends if the space inside is made of atoms if that makes any sense, as infinite atoms/matter should be infinite mass
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Let me ask you a question of my own, If it has infinite space/contains infinite space why should it have a finite mass?
If it's stated it should and i'm also inclined to be skeptical on it since Lantern rings contain an infinite universe/space inside them that's like saying all lanterns have Immeasurable lifting strength or that bullshit so I can agree with you.
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This one's years in the making.
Agree with everything
Agree with everything
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Their is also the fact that a/p isn't equal to dc and aztecs energy being called 4D is too specific, if it was just limitless i would understand it being hyperbole but it also being called 4D is strange
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Woah woah, let's be clear here, I am in no way suggesting that Clark was deceiving anybody. I am saying that "trembles under the weight of this fight" is vague and even character statements about one's ability to destroy something are iffy, as there are numerous instances where someone has made claims of their own strength that weren't accurate. This isn't about lying.
They also got a significant portion of that energy from the plasma universe that Parallax created, so again I feel that this is iffy.
I'm not arguing that the details make it impossible to be such a feat, I am saying that it makes it far less likely. I don't think a single statement calling the energy "limitless" scales it to tier 2, and saying "hyperbole makes no narrative sense" doesn't really address what I'm saying. I'm not going to continue responding if you say things like "AOE has no relevance" without supporting it with reasoning.
That's a non-sequitur. Space does not have mass.
In the scan that is being used as supporting evidence for the WITS feat, Diana calls Clark a "universal constant."
I understand the claim being made, but the text doesn't enforce that interpretation and I'd need to see supporting evidence for it.
Is there any evidence to suggest he is compressed, rather than simply small?
I think saying this feat involves a 2-C level of strength is also headcanon, with zero sourcing from the comic. He pulled apart some film reel.
Addressed, sure, but that does not mean that I have to agree. I do not think the evidence supports such an interpretation.
Okay, I am just pointing out that this theory implies that the Tornado Cannon was also 2-C which warrants consideration, in my opinion. I do not think such an interpretation is likely.
Good thing I never suggested that whatsoever.
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Because space isn't mass, and does not have mass. Matter has mass. So the question is "why would we assume that an infinite space has infinite matter within it?"
There's no reason to make such an assumption. Is it possible? Sure, but there needs to be evidence, we can't just assume.
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Okay will return to this.
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Yeah, it's in the OP, but I'll repost it:
Being wrong doesn't mean you're not credible. While Clark has been wrong, there's many more times where he's right. While it's possible for him to be incorrect on occasion, generally characters being wrong is for the reason of the plot, as to show character flaws, show how surprising a twist was, etc, while in this case there's no reason to assume he's incorrect.
I also don't think "trembles under the weight of the fight" is vague, especially when he clarifies the quakes in the distance.
For the tesseract stuff, if we don't equate size to mass, I don't mind dropping it, though I know we've rated feats of affecting "infinitely nothing" in the past.
I don't see this discussion come to a conclusion, and the argument made seems to be that characters would just outlive the loss of energy. At no point on the thread do any of them mention black holes, with Clark's feat being that he survived the Black Hole, no one was bringing up him surviving the entropy that destroyed stars and such.
I was confused here for a second, but I realize you meant Lois. I don't think her saying "you're the only constant in any Universe" is referring to him being literally incapable of dying, just a sweet way of saying she believes that he'll overcome these obstacles. Especially considering A: Clark is not the only constant in any Universe, that's simply not true, and B: as mentioned, version of him like Golden Age and N52 have died.
If you want to use this as it not being a viable scale for characters with that extra energy, maybe, though DDW notes they used their particular energies, which would imply their using their own unique energies rather than something they shared (that in this case being the plasma stuff). Either way Clark didn't absorb any of that energy, so his contribution is 100% his own power.
I thought I made this clear before, but the "limitless energy" statement is not the main evidence for it being tier 2. The main thing is that it's 4th dimensional, and I explained why AoE/the chains had no relevance by pointing out them being inside Mageddon and the chains being capable of holding Superman.
Supporting evidence for what? Steel being the Aegis? If so, this'd be pretty clear if you read the arc, but here's scans ig.
If you meant something else, my bad.
That the term he's described with is correlated with condensed matter physics, compressed of course being synonymous with condensed.
It's not just some film reel though. They're called worlds and realities, and separating two realities/Universes is textbook 2-C.
You don't have to agree, but if you disagree, you should explain why rather than repeating the basis that's being contested without anything new.
I mean if that's just how you feel, whatever, but Lex as he's scaled on the wiki right now is scaled off of Superman with his weapons, and again, I think Superman is tier 2, so I don't see the issue honestly.
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The point is that Heat Death in general isn't treated as a Tier 3 feat. In the case of Superman, he was with the last black hole from the last star. It's not infinite mass. All other stars have already gone through their black hole phase and faded away to nothingness. Being in the black hole would just be rated Tier 4 AFAIK.
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@Qawsedf234 @Antvasima @DarkDragonMedeus @LordTracer @Crabwhale
Does the scan below support universal range senses?
It feels like he's just staring off into space and seeing stars disappear, leading to the conclusion that all matter is going away rather than Superman can see/sense all matter in the universe.
Superman is able to tell that the entire Universe and Creation is in its dying stages.
Does the scan below support universal range senses?
It feels like he's just staring off into space and seeing stars disappear, leading to the conclusion that all matter is going away rather than Superman can see/sense all matter in the universe.
Superman is able to tell that the entire Universe and Creation is in its dying stages.
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At least with the scan you just showed, I don’t really see any reason to go with this interpretation.
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I mean, it can. But considering the context of the story I don't really see it. Superman also isn't usually shown to have that level of sense range. His best showings are all generally interplanetary or sub-galatic.
Firestorm is saying the OP is using a Big Crunch Black Hole, which is Tier 3. An entropic Black Hole wouldn't be that high.
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Ah I see. For the WITS Black Hole, it's the last moments of the Universe, and seems to be when everything finally gets destroyed and goes blank, so I guess my interpretation might be similar to the Big Crunch Black Hole, though not exactly considering I think the Big Crunch is supposed to be the Universe's expansion being the cause, while in this case it seems to just be Death's creation.
Anyways, this is probably my last response for these Superman feats, so take them as you will. I'll send a few more responses on the GL thread, but until then I don't plan on being super active on these threads until scaling.
Anyways, this is probably my last response for these Superman feats, so take them as you will. I'll send a few more responses on the GL thread, but until then I don't plan on being super active on these threads until scaling.
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A Big Crunch is that the universe shrinks itself back into a microscopic point and then implodes into a white hole, presumably restarting the universe.
Entropy means that everything runs out of energy and eventually the universe loses all energy and becomes net zero. The Big Crunch would be universal, but looking at the story scan it's more talking about how the last black hole is slowly dying and that's all that's left.
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The point is that a characters statements about their own power have limited evidentiary value. I disagree about the trembles comment, I think it's a very vague statement because of the earthquake comment. It's entirely possible that the earthquakes are all he's referring to.
It's hard to say either way. In some ways he is a universal constant and that's been reflected in other comics. The whole thing is super obscure. I wouldn't even have interpreted the original WITS scan as Supes "surviving the destruction of the universe"
Waverider said "take your accumulated energies" which refers to the plasma universe energy. Between that and Spectre, it's entirely unclear how much power Superman contributed. Again, too vague to be usable.
Does he have any tier 2 feats? Or is that it? Cause time powers can vary wildly.
No, for John Henry Irons, the Aegis, and the Power all referring to the same thing. Even those scans clearly delineate John and the Armor. "You're not in control of that thing."
It also doesn't make sense for Superman to regard them as the same thing because his entire stake in the bet is getting John back.
No, it isn't. Condensed in the context of condensed matter physics doesn't refer to physical compression. Moreover, they never used the phrase "supersolid" they said "supermatter" which isn't a scientific term and can't just be transposed into a different term.
In that world, it literally is film reel. That's my entire point.
I think it's pretty egregious wank to say that some random tornado cannon can destroy infinite multiverses.
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You don't necessarily need feats to get tiers according to the statement page, statement can get you tiers but depends on the person saying it.
It's possible for a 2-C AP Tornado to exist in fiction.
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huh, i guess considering the universe is infinite
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https://vsbattles.fandom.com/wiki/Red_Tornado_(Post-Crisis) also we scale red tornado to amazo on the wiki
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I do not think so. It seems like a realisation rather than cosmic-level senses, but it might be used as supporting evidence.
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An "archive of realities" created by a former wannabe author with a strong connection to the collective unconscious, and who is obsessed with accuracy and perfection, and has quite strong opinions regarding which stories that are constructive or destructive...? This character strongly sounds like a distorted parody of myself.Superman one shot Auteur.io(Batman/Superman Vol. 2 #21, October 2021)
- Auteur.io created the Archive of Worlds, an archive of realities (Batman/Superman Vol. #19, August 2021), and could destroy them if he didn't like them (Batman/Superman Vol. 2 #17, June 2021)
Oh well, never mind, please carry on with your discussion.
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To be fair, if these upgrades go through, we'll have a depressed orphan in an animal suit able to rub two sticks together and make a robot that can destroy infinite multiverses.
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even then, we have red tornado at herald tier via scaling to amazo
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