If he didn't later claim to be able to destroy it, I would also default to it being more hyperbolic/flowery.
Thank you for reminding me of that. It would have been helpful to keep those two statements together for support.
According to statement page, it says it depends on the person saying it.
He is pretty smart
Regarding Superman as a narrator?
About this.
Yes, Martian Manhunter is a smart guy, but per the Tiering FAQ and the use of "higher dimensional" stuff, we need some context regarding how 4D is applied here.
Is it normal for "Infinite Power" to be scaled in such a way? At first glance I would dismiss a phrase like that as being unusuable for scaling, but if Wiki convention is to scale it a certain way, then I suppose I'd have to concede to that.
I'm a little iffy on this but I am willing to give it a soft yes for now. My concern is that the iteration of this infinite space -- being inside a finite device -- subjects it to a lot of wonkiness that I don't think should necessarily scale to 3-A. I would be willing to see it as supporting evidence, but in a vacuum I would feel comfortable using this as a 3-A upgrade unto itself.Superman and Steel move a tesseract(Superman: The Man of Steel Vol. 1 #100, May 2000)
- This tesseract was described as infinite space within finite space (Superman: The Man of Steel Vol. 1 #99, April 2000), and is said to have Infinite space within (Superman Secret Files Vol. 1 #1, June 2000)
I'm also iffy on this. Point blank the description is inaccurate, it doesn't say anything about "one punch" and I think it's really important to describe a scan accurately because most people will just glance at the description and not read the actual scan. What it says is:Superman shakes the Phantom Zone with one punch(Superman (2018) (Rebirth) #6, February 2019)
- The Phantom Zone is an anti-Universe (Action Comics Vol. 2 #11, September 2012) and has been called Infinite (JLA Vol. 1 #36 December, 1999)
It appears as though Spectre is largely responsible for this, no? "Huh? The big guy is pumping more energy into me! Getting bigger! Cant hold it in!"Superman, Captain Atom, Darkstar and the Ray contribute to the energy of a Big Bang. (Zero Hour: Crisis in Time #0, September 1994)
The only part of this that I would see as being L2-C is "destroy the universe, including the timestream" but the scan doesn't appear to say that. It says that Mordru and Glorith will finally lay claim to the universe, but "lay claim" is not really "destroy" and I am not sure how this scales to Infinite Man?Infinite-Man's power can sculpt space-time, could destroy the Universe, including the timestream (Legionnaires Vol. 1 #18, September 1994), and has the energies of space and time (Superboy and the Legion of Super-Heroes Vol. 1 #233, November 1977)
I don't think Martian Manhunter calling energy "limitless" should be used for a L2-C feat. Phrases like that are too subject to hyperbole for me, personally. The self-destruction clearly wasn't a L2-C feat as all it did was kill a few guys. The chains holding superman aren't damaged, the city he's in isn't completely obliterated. This just clearly isn't an L2-C feat.Superman survives Aztek's self destruction of 4th Dimensional energy(JLA Vol. 1 #41, May 2000)
- Aztek's energy had previously been described as Limitless 4th Dimensional energy (JLA Vol 1 #10 September, 1997)
This seems less like a durability feat and more like cosmic wonkiness involving Superman. Do we really feel like the best way to assess this situation is that it happened because of Superman's durability? I don't think this is "Superman surviving the collapse of the universe" in a way that involves him being L2-C.Superman survives the collapse of the universe. (Superman: Where Is Thy Sting, 2001)
- Death implies that WITS really happened. (Superman: Where Is Thy Sting, 2001)
- Lois references WITS in Rebirth. (Action Comics Vol. 1 #1030, June 2021)
He says "You get to keep John Henry Irons and the Entropy Aegis and the power to remake and destroy the universe." I don't think this scan justifies scaling the armor to L2-C. If you read the whole Entropy Aegis run, you really don't get the impression that it's anything like that.Superman fights and takes hits from the Entropy Aegis while explicitly stated to be holding back. (Superman: The Man of Steel #134, March 2003). The Entropy Aegis is stated to be the power to remake and destroy the universe. (Superman Versus Darkseid: Apokolips Now, March 2003)
I think this could be 3-A, but frankly, I really don't think Nebula Man and all of his opponents should scale to Tier 2 or 3 just because he's called a living universe.Superman overpowers Nebula Man, who is stated to be a universe. (JLA Classified #2, March 2005)
- Nebula Man is confirmed to be a universe. (Seven Soldiers: Frankenstein #4, May 2006)
I think this is a decent feat, but might require a bit more examination. Depending on how we assess the other evidence, some of which I think is clearly not supportive of Tier 2 (such as the Aztek explosion), it may not be enough by itself to justify an upgrade.Superman's clash with his Golden Age counterpart shattered the boundaries of Space-Time and changed timelines (Superman Vol. 2 #226, April 2006, Action Comics Vol. 1 #836, April 2006, Adventures of Superman Vol. 1 #649, April 2006)
Did some research on this. It seems like this ability was pretty much entirely based on the Materioptikon/Dreamstone. The Dreamstone has part of the power of Dream of the Endless, and can create realities, that much is legit. The question becomes: Is it best to interpret Red King's possession of the stone as translating into a comparable level of combat prowess? Can he channel the dreamstone -- the purpose of which is dreaming realities -- into a blast to hit a single person? I am not so sure, but I'm open to discussion.Superman staggered the Red King, made him yell in pain, and survived an attack from him while weakened (JLA Classified Vol. 1 #35, April 2007), and was confident he could fight the Red King for an extended period of time(JLA Classified Vol. 1 #36, May 2007)
- The Red King destroyed realities (JLA Classified Vol. 1 #35, April 2007) multiple times, with these realities containing multiple Universes (JLA Classified Vol. 1 #36, May 2007)
I think the question should be asked: Is Superman able to do this because of 2-C power, or is it a function of being in the Archive of Worlds which has realities in the form of tapes?Superman separates two worlds(Batman/Superman Vol. 2 #21, October 2021)
- These worlds are represented as tapes, the literal fabric of reality (Batman/Superman Vol. 2 #17, June 2021), and each strip is a different reality (Batman/Superman Vol. 2 #20, September 2021)
Dr. Atom/Alexander Luthor also injured Auteur.io with a bomb. They also injured him with a tornado cannon. He wore armor and had robots that fought on his behalf. Auteur.io definitely has powerful reality-warping capabilities, but IMO it's clear that this does not translate to his head-to-head combat abilities. I don't think this should be interpreted as 2-C.Superman one shot Auteur.io(Batman/Superman Vol. 2 #21, October 2021)
- Auteur.io created the Archive of Worlds, an archive of realities (Batman/Superman Vol. #19, August 2021), and could destroy them if he didn't like them (Batman/Superman Vol. 2 #17, June 2021)
I hadn't, but I did now, and unfortunately I do not find it convincing. I don't think we have enough information to assert that Spectre was "only responsible for a small portion of the big bang energy" and I do not think Nebula Man should necessarily be seen as a 3-A or 2-C opponent just because he's a living universe. I think it's very clear that the Red King's "reality destroying" abilities stem from the Dreamstone and I do not think anything written there meaningfully contradicts that.
Yeah. To be honest, independent of what the nature of the universe ending thing is, I just don't see it as being a durability feat in the first place. The fact that Death itself is involved and that this is seen as some kind of triumph over Death, and that Wonder Woman refers to Superman as a "universal constant" suggest that this is more like some kind of cosmic hax rather than a raw durability feat or something like that.
Yes you're correct on that, the OP must have mistakenly said one punch instead of the battle itself making it tremble.
You gave a good point on that so i'd wait to see others opinion.
Did Superman tank an attack from the dreamstone? Haven't read the book so i'm not quite sure cause if he did that's 2-C durability feat and Superman's durability scale to AP.
@Ehnkr2beboh answered that in one of the threads.
Unfortunately, I am not convinced that the phrase "The phantom zone trembles from this fight" is best interpreted as literally physically shaking the space rather than a somewhat flowery/dramatic description of the event. I think we should have a higher standard for what we are willing to scale, and this is too vague in my opinion.
No, the Dreamstone was used for the reality erasure, but he never directed an attack at Superman with the stone as far as I can tell, and conceptually it doesn't make sense because numerous supermans were erased from the stone's usage when the reality they were in got deleted.
The full narration:
Yeah, IMO this is far too vague to use for such a high tier.
Spectre comes in last second and then helps to create the universe iirc, But before the spectre comes in Hal calls them hypocritical for creating their own universe and the guy funnelling the energy even states that he couldn't hold it in any longer before the spectre came in
Looking further into this, it appears that the energy that they gave Waverider was absorbed earlier from Parallax's plasma energy universe.
I don't see it as flowery language at all, the battle between them shaking the phantom zone dosen't sound flowery and i'm sure many members would agree to that also It's later stated in the same book superman can destroy the phantom zone.
I'm pretty sure it's been established our superman is different from other alternate supermen in DC comic stories.
yeah, there is flowery language and then there is author intent, considering that superman also stated he could destroy the phantom zone, i lean towards author intent
yes but superman wasn't absorbing energy, considering that the universe was accepted to be infinite the lowest the feat gets up to is high uni
I think it's definitely flowery, so personally I disagree with it. However I haven't seen the statement that he could destroy it.
My objection isn't affected much by that.
Agreed.
here you go
Same, that Phantom Zone is as large as Silver City, Apokolips or New Genesis, base superman without any situational solar boost like the one from the world forger, its just hyperbolic
Isn't Silver city bigger than universes same with New genesis having a room that contains the mortal universes in it iirc.
