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Relooking at Mario's stats

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Matthew_Schroeder said:
I have no problem with King Boo's feat being legit, my problem is scaling this to people when he needs a power up to do it. It's just circular scaling.
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What's wrong with that? Luigi fights King Boo twice with the power up crown in Luigi's Mansion 2 & 3 compare to the one time in Luigi's Mansion 1 with a seemingly non-power up crown (which the mansion vanishes after Luigi takes the red crown).

Luigi fight King Boo with purple crown = 2 times

Luigi fight King Boo with red crown = 1 time
 
Anyway, if King Boo's feat is legitimate, I personally do not mind scaling Luigi from him.

What do you think @Dino_Ranger_Black ?
 
HeeHomeboyMokey said:
my main point was that we see a celestial object in one of these levels and it explicitly is not real (AND these levels, including a painting level, is not the scale we want it to be for it to be a big feat)
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You quite literally have to have some type of evidence to prove that the stars are fake when nothing suggests so. Considering how everything in each level is very much real, to say specifically the stars aren't is cherrpicking.

The next paragraph is just "why did Bowser have the need to do this",
HeeHomeboyMokey said:
Toad says "paintings" and "walls" (plural) but then says "world" (singular) so even the english version was suspicious to begin with.
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"A competing theory suggests that Bowser will simply extend his painting worlds so that they ecompass all of reality." There, you have your plural word and word that these are made by Bowser.


HeeHomeboyMokey said:
that being said i don't see why all special stages get special pleading anyway
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Because Bowser has no relation with them, as these he was unaware of their existence.
 
DatOneWeeb said:
Either way, the feat should probably be removed. The backgrounds don't have visible stars.
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Okay, so which feat are agreed to be legitimate 4-A ones at this point?
 
King Boo's is fine, Power Stars are fine, Yoshi honestly needs debating because people claim Yoshi can't do such a thing. But other games have shown Yoshi create items just by eating fruits, so I don't see the issues.

We can remove Brobot's feat.
 
Scaling from Yoshi laying eggs seems ridiculous in itself, as Ryukama mentioned earlier, and if the power stars were not shown to have such a degree of power in the relevant games that Yoahi created them, we cannot use it anyway.
 
He's basically creating a 4-A item, despite how funny it may seem. Power Stars don't really vary in power, and in Odyssey they are needed.
 
DatOneWeeb said:
King Boo's is fine, Power Stars are fine, Yoshi honestly needs debating because people claim Yoshi can't do such a thing. But other games have shown Yoshi create items just by eating fruits, so I don't see the issues.

We can remove Brobot's feat.
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I'm just rolling my eyes because we didn't even get a translation for the power stars quote!!
 
HeeHomeboyMokey said:
my main point was that we see a celestial object in one of these levels and it explicitly is not real (AND these levels, including a painting level, is not the scale we want it to be for it to be a big feat)

but also if the first english screenshot is what we have for Bowser creating them, why are we even using that as evidence? Toad says "paintings" and "walls" (plural) but then says "world" (singular) so even the english version was suspicious to begin with. If we use this combined with what we know in say, Bob-Omb Battlefield, where King Bob-Omb was given a power star by Bowser, "create" is likely not literal even in the english translation (and judging by the rough translation work above, it may very well be the case that its not literally creating something anyway as suspected) since all Bowser is doing is causing more chaos and giving power to people he allies himself with to hold power. Seems pretty pointless to me if Bowser just decided to create several worlds with their own histories and backstories somehow which he also decided to only have himself hold any sort of indirect rule in these worlds by making a random middleman (the bosses he gave power stars to) if his main goal in this game is literally just domination (remember how he says he hates that peace is returning to the world at the end of the game)

i have a gripe with the fact that all these feats are just starry sky feats interpreted in such an overly simplistic way meanwhile, even if the opposition conceded every single point, the fact remains that none of these feats are as simple or straightforward as the profiles make them out to be.

that being said i don't see why all special stages get special pleading anyway (not that i was even using the aquarium as a miscellaneous example for no reason, it was to point out that these places are connected to the castle, same with Tick Tock Clock for example which is literally a clock and a main course)
Click to expand...
 
I'm just gonna go ahead and say that we need some other way to scale Mario characters in general, as compositing them causes way more problems than it solves, it is widely known that the Mario series lacks any major canon between games, so we should treat each game branch as a different canon, since they should at least work among themselves, for example, the New Super Mario Bros series should have its own Mario, the Super Mario Galaxy series should have one, etc.

This stops any enormous amount of work for trying to scale between games that simply don't relate to one another, and I believe it is a good compromise compared to other ideas I've seen pop up in the past, such as every game getting a profile, which is a ludicrous task by any standards.

I believe the Mario series is in major need of something along these lines, as compositing the canon between unrelated games is unreliable, and is essentially an excuse to fully composite an entire verse that doesn't really need it and shouldn't really have it. This alternative will create more reliable pages, understandable profiles to viewers, and will overall show Mario how he actually appears in his different game series, and actually explains why he's different between games.

Plz don't crucify me for this, I just thought it's a better compromise that we could use, or hey, someone's probably already said something along these lines and i'm just dumb...
 
The argument for separating Mario's has been adressed far too many times. We have to prove a game in non-canon instead of just saying they are because they aren't mainlines. I'm not going to go over details, because nothing is new here.
 
DatOneWeeb said:
You quite literally have to have some type of evidence to prove that the stars are fake
Click to expand...
I pointed out how the celestial objects in the stages don't even need to be real (Big Boo's Haunt), or how several stages INCLUDING a main course are a part of the natural world (Throwback Galaxy, and before we get into claiming that is not Whomp's Fortress , i'd like to point out King Whomp has not appeared between 64 and Galaxy 2 and the first mission being called "The Return of King Whomp" as well as the Bob-Omb buddies saying Mario seems familiar)

why are special stages, main courses, and other secrets being demonstrated as not being explicit pocket dimensions or not even being all that big somehow not enough to just throw out the stage creation feats especially when we know it's not even set in stone that Bowser made them anyway? (my point before about special pleading was about how both main courses and special stages are a part of the castle or the natural world btw)
DatOneWeeb said:
"A competing theory suggests that Bowser will simply extend his painting worlds so that they ecompass all of reality." There, you have your plural word and word that these are made by Bowser.
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Did you really just omit the rest of the passage?
This book is an english source that claims Mario is from Brooklyn, ironically after Yoshi's Island is released.
So why do we need to wait for translations while you use english sources exactly?
The text also claims that that is just a competing theory from professors who are basically sitting on their ass while Mario actually goes and does something about it, and it is using the colloquial definition of theory, as in, basically a hypothesis. At best, the case for creation here is the use of the possessive "his" which does not even mean he created it, it means it is his property now.

This being said, I have to rant. Starry sky feats have kind of gone way too far at this point. Even a cartoony dimension with a few first grader stars in it is consideration for cosmic tiers, but when the CRTs against them come in, it is always "prove they aren't real" while misusing things like Occam's Razor (which might be a good time to mention that y'all use that wrong anyway) and having the opposition go through translations despite the original effort to upgrade characters with starry sky feats doing no such thing. It's basically already been established that the feats here were used on insufficient evidence but now the opposition has to go through more scrutiny than the side in favor of it ever did and frankly I think that's kind of ridiculous.
 
WoG should only be applied if it correlates well with the verse, and actually goes by how the verse works. In the Mario series, every game goes by as if the last never happened, the stories vary widely with inconsistency between games. Is there any explanation to why Mario is depowered in one story, but is some god-like entity in another other than PIS. Because making singular profiles for a verse entirely dependent on PIS and Outliers is not only unreliable and inconsistent, it's borderline just incorrect.

I believe with what we have, the profiles should be decomposited, each game series should have its own canon, and should run off of its own feats. One 3 second WoG statement in a rapid fire Q&A about the Zelda franchise should not be enough to combat almost 40 years of inconsistencies between games.
 
KieranH10 said:
WoG should only be applied if it correlates well with the verse, and actually goes by how the verse works. In the Mario series, every game goes by as if the last never happened, the stories vary widely with inconsistency between games. Is there any explanation to why Mario is depowered in one story, but is some god-like entity in another other than PIS. Because making singular profiles for a verse entirely dependent on PIS and Outliers is not only unreliable and inconsistent, it's borderline just incorrect.

I believe with what we have, the profiles should be decomposited, each game series should have its own canon, and should run off of its own feats. One 3 second WoG statement in a rapid fire Q&A about the Zelda franchise should not be enough to combat almost 40 years of inconsistencies between games.
Click to expand...
It should be. WoG weighs more than non-existent composite rules
 
Da_Lunge_Fish said:
We don't usually require original text. Why should it be different for Mario? Too eager to try to downgrade Mario?
Click to expand...
It's like with the manga viz of Dragon Ball, even though Viz tries its best there are this a lot of mistranslations and Viz-isms. Always relying on the 'official' english translation is just wrong!

I mean in just this thread we saw that there was a mistranslation for King Boo's feat!!
 
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KieranH10 makes some good points, both regarding translations of guidebooks and possibly creating separate profile pages.

Also, Ryukama rejected scaling from Yoshi laying eggs previously, so we cannot use that.

@Matthew_Schroeder @DarkDragonMedeus @Dino_Ranger_Black

What do you think that we should do here?
 
It should if the WoG does not fit with what we see in-verse. Currently the entire verse is boiled down to PIS or Outliers, which doesn't make any sense. How can one WoG statement in a Zelda Q&A get in the way of abundantly clear differing portrayal throughout years of different games.
 
HeeHomeboyMokey said:
I pointed out how the celestial objects in the stages don't even need to be real (Big Boo's Haunt), or how several stages INCLUDING a main course are a part of the natural world (Throwback Galaxy, and before we get into claiming that is not Whomp's Fortress , i'd like to point out King Whomp has not appeared between 64 and Galaxy 2 and the first mission being called "The Return of King Whomp" as well as the Bob-Omb buddies saying Mario seems familiar)
Click to expand...
Except they're false comparisons. You're quite literally using specific levels that are blatantly different from the rest. Is Big Boo's haunt in a painting/wall? No. Does Mario shrink when entering those levels? No. So use an example from a standard level over the ones that blatantly function different. Throwback Galaxy is not Whomp's Fortress, as the name implies, it's a throwback level, not the literal place. For a name of "The Return of King Whomp", you'd expect him to remember Mario. He doesn't. Hell, not even the Bob-omb buddies seem to either. Nintendo's already done a similar case with every variation of 1-1, unless you're telling me that's all the same location.


HeeHomeboyMokey said:
why are special stages, main courses, and other secrets being demonstrated as not being explicit pocket dimensions or not even being all that big somehow not enough to just throw out the stage creation feats especially when we know it's not even set in stone that Bowser made them anyway? (my point before about special pleading was about how both main courses and special stages are a part of the castle or the natural world btw)
Click to expand...
Because we DO know Bowser made them, you do everything because of them. For further evidence that Bowser can create original worlds, the paintings of Mario, Luigi, and Wario, support this. Since it's only a pportrait of their face and not resembling any location, Bowser clearly made his own worlds to hide away the keys.


HeeHomeboyMokey said:
This book is an english source that claims Mario is from Brooklyn, ironically after Yoshi's Island is released.
Click to expand...
Are you telling me realistic cities aren't a thing in Mario?



HeeHomeboyMokey said:
So why do we need to wait for translations while you use english sources exactly?
Click to expand...
Because these aren't English translations from another manual, it's original text that Nintendo makes. There's nothing too translate there. It's a secondary source, we've used manuals/guides for several verses.


HeeHomeboyMokey said:
The text also claims that that is just a competing theory from professors who are basically sitting on their ass while Mario actually goes and does something about it, and it is using the colloquial definition of theory, as in, basically a hypothesis.
Click to expand...
No idea how you misread that. The theory itself was what will Bowser do with the paintings, not if he made them or not.

HeeHomeboyMokey said:
At best, the case for creation here is the use of the possessive "his" which does not even mean he created it, it means it is his property now.
Click to expand...
Which is you re-wording it to make the feat different. "Oh those paintings? They were never there, Bowser simply displayed them." You say prior that these paintings were from the castle but now they're Bowser's possessions?

You absolutely have to prove it's fake, it's not just about proving the positive, but because to say everything in the game you interact with and specifically the stars only can't be real is blatant cherrpicking. If there's nothing suggesting it's fake, then don't argue it is.
 
KieranH10 said:
It should if the WoG does not fit with what we see in-verse. Currently the entire verse is boiled down to PIS or Outliers, which doesn't make any sense. How can one WoG statement in a Zelda Q&A get in the way of abundantly clear differing portrayal throughout years of different games.
Click to expand...
Because for one, several games have referenced each other, there's too many to list. Second, other sources such as the encyclopedia have cooped up each Mario game as the same general Mario. You claim it's PIS or an outlier, show your scans then. Scaling from different games is not an argument by the way.
 
DatOneWeeb said:
Because these aren't English translations from another manual, it's original text that Nintendo makes. There's nothing too translate there. It's a secondary source, we've used manuals/guides for several verses.
Click to expand...
Go ahead and buy the original Japanese manual if you're going to claim this!!

www.ebay.com

N64 Super Mario 64 Guide book Official Japan | eBay

Find great deals for N64 Super Mario 64 Guide book Official Japan. Shop with confidence on eBay!
www.ebay.com
 
KieranH10 said:
I'm just gonna go ahead and say that we need some other way to scale Mario characters in general, as compositing them causes way more problems than it solves, it is widely known that the Mario series lacks any major canon between games, so we should treat each game branch as a different canon, since they should at least work among themselves, for example, the New Super Mario Bros series should have its own Mario, the Super Mario Galaxy series should have one, etc.

This stops any enormous amount of work for trying to scale between games that simply don't relate to one another, and I believe it is a good compromise compared to other ideas I've seen pop up in the past, such as every game getting a profile, which is a ludicrous task by any standards.

I believe the Mario series is in major need of something along these lines, as compositing the canon between unrelated games is unreliable, and is essentially an excuse to fully composite an entire verse that doesn't really need it and shouldn't really have it. This alternative will create more reliable pages, understandable profiles to viewers, and will overall show Mario how he actually appears in his different game series, and actually explains why he's different between games.

Plz don't crucify me for this, I just thought it's a better compromise that we could use, or hey, someone's probably already said something along these lines and i'm just dumb...
Click to expand...
Split it per game
 
They are. Mario 64 has many guides/manuals, not just one. You can clearly see the layout of the Japanese guide is different from Nintendo Power's.
 
What do you mean scaling between games isn't an argument? That's literally the entire argument, scaling between games should not be allowed, as they .show Mario at entirely different levels, and treat them like it's his max.

My scans are literally every single Mario game acting as its own source of media, with only the in-series rules applying to each game series. New Super Mario Bros treats Mario vastly differently to the likes of Mario Galaxy. As does every other game with each other. They simply shouldn't be compared.

@Lucky We aren't gonna spilt the verse into individual game profiles, as that would be an unnecessary amount of work, splitting the verse into its different series, such as Mario Galaxy, New Super Mario Bros, Mario Odyssey, etc is a much better alternative which keeps consistency, and doesn't require dozens of profiles for basically the same character.
 
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