Reimu Hakurei (Window) vs Fiamma of the Right (5-B)

[Andykhang]

A servant (?) of god vs The One Above God (?) (They're both questionable, in my opinion).Personal match, speed equalize, bloodlust, win when kill, defeated or incapacitated.
Round 1: Reimu without Fantasy Nature, Fiamma without the Holy Right.

Round 2: All bet are off.

Who would win? Personally, Round 2 are off the table. Round 1, Fiamma could win due to better magic knowledge, but Reimu still have the chance.

 

[Yamatohime]

Round 1: Reimu lose because it is basicaly stomp. She don't have enough firepower (Low 6-B).

Round 2: FN make this battle inconclusive. No FotR ability will penetrtate it.

 

[Andykhang]

It's only the Holy Right that have that capacity though, so attack wise they're near equal.

 

[Yamatohime]

It's only the Holy Right that have that capacity though, so attack wise they're near equal.

Profile doesn't have other AP for 5-B FotR though...

 

[LordAizenSama]

taking his Holy Right away you're basically taking away his power. It's basically just Index in Johns pen mode.

 

[Andykhang]

^With magic, so it's not that much of a take down.

 

[LordAizenSama]

... So Indexs John's pen Mode

 

[Andykhang]

^Yeah... that's one of the reason I only remove Fantasy Nature in Round 1.

 

[LordAizenSama]

Just seems odd to me, but alright then it's fine.

 

[Andykhang]

^So what's your pick?

 

[LordAizenSama]

I don't know this Reimu character enough to give a well written response, I may respond later after checking the char profile,

 

[Andykhang]

@Yamatohime: On the other hand (get it?), Fiamma don't have effective defense that could block against FN's advance, so sooner or later he would be killed.

 

[Yamatohime]

@Yamatohime: On the other hand (get it?), Fiamma don't have effective defense that could block against FN's advance, so sooner or later he would be killed.

Healing and Regenerationn will make it moot. Planet level dura versus Small Continent level AP...

 

[Andykhang]

I kind of think she could bypass dura to attack the inside.

 

[DontTalk]

Scenario 1: No idea, Fiamma without holy right doesn't make sense. I mean if we go with index stats for that this is likely city level vs island level durability. Well, index has some good hax, but nothing that would give her huge advantages vs much superior bullet spam.


Scenario 2: 2 possibilities to start with.

Possibility 1: Reimu decides to first shoot a bullet or something and then go fanatasy nature. In that case she dies.

Possibility 2: Reimu decides to first go fantasy nature and then begin to shoot stuff.

Now normal combat doesn't work here and reimu also has the luck of not using magic.

Has index something that would work though? Well, one thing that could work is sheol fear.

As it targets religious people specifically it works well on reimu and is not magic. Why could that work against fantasy nature? Well, I suppose we would argue that reimu is not blind when using it and likely also not deaf, so that she can hear it. Since it doesn't use a supernatural method (no mana involved) one could compare it to the ability of elva in that it basically causes a magic breakdown by giving the opponent certain informations instead of really using a mind attack.

The other argument that I want to bring up is that a long fight will not be in reimus favour. Index has an incredible analysis and developement ability. The best example of that is her replicating gugnir, a universe level weapon, later on in the novels and that the Index Librorum Prohibitorum is hyped to be able to raise a human to the level of a magic god. Using special anti-Shinto spells or other possible things I would believe that the Index Librorum Prohibitorum can be used to put together an effective fighting method even against fantasy nature. (Though that of course involves speculation)

So my vote: Scenario 1 Reimu, Scenario 2 Fiamma.

 

[Yamatohime]

Fantasy Nature is not Shinto at all. It is her own talent to defy <put something here>.

 

[DontTalk]

Well, I don't think it is clear which category most character exclusive abilties in touhou fall into. But really doesn't matter much for the argument. To Aru has magic that could/will work and much of it can to some degree be expected to be useable for index if the preperation time is sufficient.

 

[Andykhang]

^Except magic isn't going to work on her either. Why the hell do you think the lands that have a forest of magic, Patchouli and even Yukari isn't going to think of magic in the first place?

To continued on Yamatohime: He's right, there's a reason it's called "Nature", because she got this from birth, before she's the Eternal Shrine Maiden. I even have my own pet theory that she got this because she's literally fantasy, as in someone that is born out of fantasy and thus not constrained in reality.

And beside, Sheol Fear work only on fanatic, or the devoted by saying thing people doesn't want to hear about their religion., and Reimu isn't such a person. She's more like someone that used religion to scam people.

 

[DontTalk]

Sheol fear works on believers and I would think that reimu as a shrine maiden fits that description.


One of the spells index analysed is for example the so called "all dimensions severing spell", a spell that does damage to up to at least 11 dimensional structures. Saying that something like that isn't going to work because "magic" would imply that reimu can in that state take attacks of tier 1 entities, which is utter wank. Similar for many other things, basically most things not doing physical damage and not requiring physical contact should work, since fantasy nature is only explained to work that far.

 

[LazyHunter]

I don't see the point of this match. Round 1 is a stomp for Reimu since you're taking Fiamma's actual power away and only leaving him Index's power (very inferior to Reimu) and a spell that probably won't work on Reimu, so it's not a valid fight. And Round 2 is a stomp for Fiamma, so it's also not valid.

 

[Andykhang]

@Donttalk: Isn't that spell can only be used by Curtana? And require England amount of magic to do it? And even a tier 2-C like Othinus would stand it anyway. Not to mention it's pretty dodgable. I don't remember any instant of him using it too...

About belief thing though, Reimu is only as religious as us when we live in Gensokyo. Just because something is real, doesn't mean you have to fanatically adhere to it's teaching (and she's is not the type that would hold anything in hand), not to mention her knowledge of Shinto isn't complete, and not even knowing the goddamn god that she's praying.

@Lazyhunter: Yeah, tell me how "not even be able to touch her" would lead him to victory?

 

[LazyHunter]

Easy. He's bloodlusted, so you've removed the only limit he had in-story to not just use "The Strike That Reaches Everything When Swung" to one-shot enemies right at the start of a fight. Reimu can't dodge the attack, so she'll very likely die before being able to do anything or use Fantasy Nature. Not to mention that if Reimu miraculously uses Fantasy Nature in time to survive that first he can teleport to several kilometers away from her until she loses track of him and wait for the right moment to strike attack under his concealment magic so Reimu would have no way to notice him. Sooner or later Reimu will drop her guard/get tired, exit Fantasy Nature and get killed. And I can't even see a way for her to hurt him with her AP, so even if Fiamma didn't want to use his stealth magic for whatever reason he can just stand there intercepting and tanking anything she throws at him until she gets tired.

Not that it matters, as I already mentioned it's a stomp.

 

[DontTalk]

While Reimu is laid back as a shrine maiden she most certainly would be more religous as your average person.

And yes it is the spell of the curtana, the point is that such spells are possible and that using index knowledge and enough time fiamma can put together almost every kind of magic useable. And that includes being capable of creating another curtana. A replica was created by england before and can be created again. Sure it is restricted to england, but the fight (per standard assumptions) takes place in the real world which means that fiamma can just teleport there and wait for reimu to follow. She doesn't have a reason not to do so not knowing its powers. Dodging? well, it's only a matter of time until she makes a mistake and in speed equal with teleporting opponents questionable if it would even take long.

The curtana was never used on othinus, de facto things would suggest it cutting everything as long as it isn't magically imbued, but what does it matter? Fiammas mana and telesma resources can boost it insanely above anything the original had, so as long as fantasy nature doesn't protect reimu (which it doesn't, because 11 dimensional attacks as said) reimu will go down through worse durability than fiammas AP if not already just through the hax departements of the spell.

Spells like Krans can also work. As said give index time and she can probably produce most spells that exists in to aru or even boost people to the status of a magic god. Some things will work.

And in 50% of the cases where reimus first action is offense (or if fiamma makes first move, hard to judge in speed equal) fiamma will kill before fantasy nature even matters either way.

In other words this goes for fiamma in 8/10 cases IMO, in the rest it probably ends inconclusive (or it wins whoevers stamina first runs out).

 

[Andykhang]

@LazyHunter: Fantasy Nature originally doesn't have a limit, since it's more like a state of mind that she could naturally come to just as easy as breathing (and you won't stop breathing even when you're tired isn't it?). And the whole "escape from reality" thing kinda null the entire point about stamina anyway. More over, it ignored durability, since not letting anything to touch you also included thing like "a person body", so who to said she won't put anything strange in his brain?

@Donttalk: Isn't the upper limit of FN is still unknown though? So for the sake of both our health, can we just assuming that it's inconclusive whether that move could work or not? And no, she's just more knowledgable about such subject. There's a different between having the aquired knowledge base on necessity, with actually only adhering to what your mom said.

 

[DontTalk]

If the upper limit is unknown it is set at the last part it is known. Everything else is a NLF basically (which is especially bad since we know that fantasy nature has a limit, just not which one).

Where was it stated that fantasy nature doesn't drain stamina?

 

[Andykhang]

^Hah...it doesn't (I can't find it in the Wiki anyway). It don't stake that this thing have a limit too, and only implied that she could keep it on indefinitively since it need such an abitrary limit in the first place. Plus the whole getting out of reality thing mean that logically, she doesn't have such limitation as needing food,drink or rest.

Edit: And setting at the last part it is known is kinda dangerous, logic wise, since no one would be able to accept it.

 

[DontTalk]

We know it has a limit, because ZUN mentioned that the Watatsuki sisters stomp everyone in gensokyo. That does include reimu.

So if Reimu can be defeated by the watatsuki sisters something has to work on her.


And as said I don't see a reason why FN should not take stamina. It comes to her naturally, but so does running non the less one can not keep running forever. I also don't see how flying above reality would per default justify the assumption that she wouldn't need to eat or sleep. Those things are necessary because of her body, not because of influence of other stuff so her body woud still require those even when outside of reality.

 

[LazyHunter]

@Andykhang: Well, unless you can find a source for Fantasy Nature not consuming stamina/energy or it being used offensively to bypass durability, I maintain my previous judgement: Reimu stomps Round 1 due to Fiamma being stripped of his powers fo the fight, Fiamma stomps Round 2 due to Holy Right and better AP/Durability.

 

[Andykhang]

@Donttalk: Yeah, but it's still count as limit from the human body, since it was influencing her. And remember that ZUN also said that Reimu's pretty much unbeatable in that too? I don't see him retracting that comment, and Reimu doesn't fight her with that Last Word anyway, so we can't even know.

And wait, when does Fiamma learn all of Index's knowledge?

@LazyHunter: Hahh... the pain of only having logic as your arsenal.

 

[LazyHunter]

Fiamma has access to all grimoires and knowledge inside Index thanks to getting his hands on one of the two John's Pen's controllers

 

[Andykhang]

^I could bring indirect proof though: During Fantasy Nature, she was able to bring not just herself, but the object she was holding too (or else we would have the luck to see naked Reimu). And since she could bring it back, that mean she could bring object in and out with her. And we have proof to said that FN made her untouchable by any mean, so that mean the object she bring to her would be the same too. What happen if such an object would find itself lodged in someone's brain, and she then bring it to "outside" again?

 

[LazyHunter]

Even assuming that she can use her ability that way to attack like Toaru's esper teleporters do, I find it unlikely for her to land an attack like that against a teleporter like Fiamma with speed equalized

 

[Andykhang]

^She got telespam too, so the chance are pretty much equal. And she only need one chance.

And yeah, if you accept my explanation for that, then whether or not she wouldn't used stamina in that mode doesn't really matter. If she could bring object in and out with her, what stop her from taking a rest, drink water and have a meal while still in that mode? Like I said, it's as nature as breathing.

 

[LazyHunter]

I've not accepted your assumption, I mean that hypothetically. And her pages notes that her teleportation is short-range and she's barely aware of it, so I don't see it beating Fiamma in that department. Additionally, you're assuming and especulating she can stay in Fantasy Nature indefinitely as long as she has energy, but maybe FN spends her energy faster than she can recover it by resting or eating, who knows. We should use the data we have in the pages. Otherwise I can just say that Fiamma uses his minor Reality Warping to make himself invincible, give himself Regenerationn, bring her back to reality or turn her into a salt statue for looking at him.

I've already made my stance on this battle clear, so unless actual proof is presented for your claims (both stamina/energy and FN offensive use) I won't change my mind: this is not a good matchup.

 

[Ciruno_Fortes_(COB)]

Didn't Reimu basically summon a god for seven days straight with no food or rest? That kinda scales with the stamina and this ability associates with that.

And Zun's words were no one in Gensokyo could touch the moon sisters. But I wonder if can they touch Reimu either in Fantasy Nature?

Glad to see another Reimu thread and not the other Touhou characters getting their limelight. On side with Reimu in all cases. Scenario 1 is already explained above, Scenario 2, well it's more inconclusive than anything honestly. Reimu can still whittle him down

Edit - The tele spam isn't the way to beat but rather the way to survive.

 

[Andykhang]

About the concealment thing, her instinct and ability to see through illusion should do a trick. At least in close range, and especially when she's pretty unhinged by FN.

 

[LazyHunter]

Concealment magic in Toaru is not necessarily an illusion, and it's usually just removing your presence from the area or subtly interfering with people's subconscious so that even if the person looking for you is looking straight at you they won't see you, or make you able to hold a fireball in your hand in a busy street without anybody caring about it. Even these basic spells can trick other magicians on the same level as long as the caster doesn't disturb the area too much. There's also other tricks such as erasing memories, making the opponent lose all interest in confronting/interacting with you by simply turning your back on them, straight invisibility, separating two places in space so that nobody from inside/outside notices what happens on the other side of the barrier, etc... Even a low-tier magician like Theodosia Electra can conceal a room by simply making it not exist as long as you don't use a specific rune password or defeat her. And Fiamma's concealment ability is beyond any of those and allowed him to take Othinus, a magic god and thus a master of magic and very superior to even Fiamma, by surprise. And like I mentioned earlier, Fiamma should be able to quickly get to the other side of the world with a few teleports, which is not exactly short range. I doubt Reimu will find him if Fiamma decides to hide and plan/rest if he somehows fails to oneshot her at the start of the fight and gets bored of tanking her attacks.

 

[Andykhang]

^I don't see any of your example is going to affect FN Reimu in anyway though (normal mode could be though), and she will see in after enough range due to her intuition that have been even more rev up by FN. And since when he take Othinus by surprise?

 

[DontTalk]

What exactly are your sources for the capabilities of FN? It is new to me that it was mentioned to protect against illusion or increase reimus intuiton.

Also reimu was affected by illusions in the past. Keine turning the village invisible to be specific. Not in FN, but I don't see the difference.

 

[LazyHunter]

Why would FN make Reimu able to see through all concealment techniques? And what do you mean by intuition/instinct, because I wouldn't take that seriously (much less when talking about seeing through techniques of that level) unless it's an actual ability of the character, normally that kind of intuition is plot driven.

And Fiamma developed his concealment technique in NT5-6 when he practiced it by keeping himself unnoticed by all magicicians in AC and applied it in NT8 as part of a gambit with Ollerus, managing to take Othinus completely by surprise and hit her with the Fairy Spell.