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Regarding DBS Low 2-C

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ShadowWarrior1999

ShadowWarrior1999

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Goku and co are Low 2-C based on promotional material about Jiren being the strongest foe Goku's ever faced, which would put him above Infinite Zamasu.

Here's the issue with this, should we really be scaling Jiren above Infinite Zamasu when he hasn't remotely demonstrated any feats on a Low 2-C scale? His best feat is shaking the World of Void which is High 3-A. Also, even as Low 2-Cs him and the others still don't have the range to destroy a space-time continuum.

In the words of another user:

"Promotional material doesn't mean anything if it contradicts the story. If you care so much about that, then how about you make a CRT that Infinite should be 2-C because he was claimed to the strongest enemy Sonic faced."

So now I ask "how is this different from the case mentioned above?"
 
Because it's not just promo material, iirc. It's said in the series itself.

There's also how jiren being the strongest isn't really contradictory, and the weaker toppo reached the level of a God of Destruction who we also rate at low 2-C.
 
Definitely following.

I have issues with the Low 2-C tiering as well, especially the part you mentioned about Jiren only performing a High 3-A feat and nothing to really support Low 2-C. But this is just my own opinion, in a nice and gentle manner. Someone can correct me and the OP.


Edit: My questions have been answered, thanks. I'm know ok with Low 2-C.
 
Really, this yet again? It's not contradictory in the slightest. Everything, from show itself, promotional material, interviews, non-canon media, guidebooks and wog states that Jiren is the strongest foe Goku and his friends ever faced.

His entire conception as a character is that he's the strongest mortal in the universes, stronger than his own God of Destruction, and meant to be an insurmountable object, an unbreakable, unscaleable wall that Goku must find a new way to surpass. A new transformation, Ultra Instinct, which is what finally makes Goku reach the level of the Gods of Destruction, and even surpass Beerus in the end.

If Jiren isn't the strongest opponent yet, his entire character and Goku's entire journey during the Tournament of Power arc doesn't work. Specially if we're supposed to believe a being that only appeared for one episode and whose only purpose in the plot was to show how powerful Zeno was is stronger than him.
 
Yes, he and Jiren had been stated multiple times by the likes of The Kais to have the strongest chi they had ever felt, and Beerus was more concerned by Jiren's chi rather than Zamasu's.
 
Matthew Schroeder said:
If Jiren isn't the strongest opponent yet, his entire character and Goku's entire journey during the Tournament of Power arc doesn't work.
Click to expand...
Not that the tourney works even if Jiren was the strongest because he's a generic piece of garbage, Goku shouldn't be able to Zenkai but lol writing finds a way, it's long as forkery, and generally it's just the worst part of Super but I digress

Still though... I can see both sides of this argument. On one hand, everyone and their grandmother thinks Jiren is the strongest thing out there.

On the other hand, this is the same group of people that had Goku think he could have fought a living universe if he had a Sensu bean, so, how reliable is it?

It's iffy either way, so I'll be Netural for now.
 
Should Goku and co really be Low 2-C because Jiren was stated to be the strongest foe Goku has faced? They don't remotely show any Low 2-C feats evidenced by them not having the range to bust a space-time continuum.

Firstly, scaling exists for a reason. Not having done a Low 2-C feat =/= their not Low 2-C. Furthermore, there is a clear distinction between attack potency and destructive capacity. Them not having universal+ range doesn't disprove Low 2-C AP. That's an AoE fallacy.
 
ShadowWarrior1999 said:
@RotofBots The legitimacy of the scaling was what I was questioning in the first place.
Click to expand...
As said earlier by Matt, "Everything, from show itself, promotional material, interviews, non-canon media, guidebooks and WOG states that Jiren is the strongest foe."

It's pretty clear-cut that he's stronger than Zamasu.
 
It's not iffy, it's clear cut. Every reliable source in the universe rates Jiren > Infinite Zamasu.

this is the same group of people that had Goku think he could

I didn't know Goku represented everyone in his group, you're grasping at straws with this argument.
 
"On the other hand, this is the same group of people that had Goku think he could have fought a living universe if he had a Sensu bean, so, how reliable is it?"

That's really not much of a point against this tbh. That was more of a situation of "hey, if he was at full power, we might have a fighting chance. Anything is better than nothing". That scene does not harm their credibility at all. Not to mention that only like Goku even said anything about a Senzu Bean....and Goku's an idiot and we don't talk about him.
 
Not believing a Dragon Ball character is at a certain level of strength because they lack the physical feat despite every character in the series, guides, and promotional material supporting such a claim.

Hmm...where have I heard that before?

But seriously, Jiren was stated to be the strongest being Goku has ever faced like a hundred times in the show by like a dozen different people, in guides, promotional material, et cetera. Just like Matt said.

It is pretty obvious they are that he is that specific tier.
 
Warren Valion said:
Not believing a Dragon Ball character is at a certain level of strength because they lack the physical feat despite every character in the series, guides, and promotional material supporting such a claim.
Hmm...where have I heard that before?

But seriously, Jiren was stated to be the strongest being Goku has ever faced like a hundred times in the show by like a dozen different people, in guides, promotional material, et cetera. Just like Matt said.

It is pretty obvious they are that he is that specific tier.
Click to expand...
I agree with Matt's points and the others about the Tier 2 rating.

Also, I think that we need an informational blog to limit the number of CRT like this.
 
There is no need for a blog. Linking the "Jiren is the strongest opponent" statement from the actual show on the profile would be more than enough.
 
Ehhh.

People believe what they want to believe despite evidence to the contrary.

You would be surprised at how many people don't believe that Goku in Super is Universal, or that Cell can bust a Solar System, or that Vegeta could bust a planet in the Saiyan saga even though there are copious amounts of evidence for it.

So a blog like that is kind of pointless for most downplayers as they will ignore the proof you show them.
 
All we really need is for someone to link the statement on the profile. Once that happens, this can be closed.
 
I was planning this same CRT but since the counterarguments makes sense I'm good with the Low 2-C.
 
Speaking of Low 2-C DB. Is Frieza going to be upgraded to Low 2-C due to the Broly movie or is it being waited on?
 
He got stomped by Broly for an hour (When suppressed Jiren one-shot him in the ToP and GoD Toppo stomped him. The both of them are weaker than SS Broly). When Frieza went Golden his power knocked Broly back by several meters (Broly sliding backwards on the ground) and Frieza displayed confidence in his ability to fight Broly (We don't see him until half an hour later).

It has also been stated in the novel and (IIRC) some interview that Frieza has been training since the ToP which adds credulence to him growing stronger since then.

Compare those feats to SS Broly easily trashing Goku and Vegeta (including a Galick Kamehameha) and them being forced to retreat in just a few minutes of fighting him. Goku and Vegeta both being Low 2-C in SSB after the ToP.
 
I've found many issues with that blog.

>Firstly, both Goku and Beerus were the spreaders of the shockwaves. Given that, we can exclude any possibility of this feat being any kind of universal bullcrap tier. Destructive capacity is based on the ability to destroy with a single attack.

Ignoring the fact that they are the cause of said shockwaves with strength alone.

>Secondly, Beerus, whose title is the god of Destruction may be the major factor responsible for the destructive effects as this kind of event never happened in other fights such as Goku versus Frieza, Vegito SSJBlue versus Merged Zamasu and so on.

This is the same argument that every debunker broughts up when it comes to DB's tier and feats. We know that Piccolo destroyed the Moon but he doesn't destroy it again everysingle time he fights.

>Uses manga's scan but avoids the one where Vados and stopped the GoDs after they attempted to clash their ki blasts which'd threat the universe.

>If we take into acconunt the definition, this can not be a universe busting feat as the universe was put at risk after numerous hits and not after a single one.

Three hits IIRC. Which is a High End 3-B+ feat as it was calced. And Goku became stronger afterwards.

>He calls Buu a planet buster

>Brings information about Buu that everybody knows (Buu isn't Galaxy level) when that doesn't help with the subject and brings nothing new to the table.

>Kamehameha >>>>>>> a mere punch. How could a mere punch collapse the universe if a powerful kamehameha could not ?

Wasn't Beerus the one that nullified the energy clash because the universe was in danger?

And the blog is large AF but the arguments are not enough IMO. Also, calling people who claims Goku is universal level a liar it's a good fallacy to complete the blog's burial.
 
Dont care about the on-goining argument much but I do want to ask this because I don't remember.

When it comes to the Kai's saying "Jirens the strongest KI they ever felt", was anyone actually able to sense Infinite Zamasu's power? Or was it Zamasu pre-timeline transformation?
 
Beerus was somewhat concerned about IZ while when he felt Jiren's power his reaction was like "Oh my F**K!"
 
Well, not to try and take away from either side, but couldnt Beerus have been worried about IZ due to him literally becoming a timeline?

Zamasu at that point went beyond the scope of Beerus's range to destroy him as, AFAIK, Beerus's range as a Low 2-C is insignificant in comparison to being an entire timeline. Which would explain why Zen'o was needed since he is (or was at that point in time) the only character in DBS who has Multi-Universal range, which could easily deal with Zamasu.

Again, not to take sides on this, but just pointing out a specific point. Is there any evidence that Beerus actually sensed Zamasu's power to make that jistinction of "only being concerned" or was he only concerned with IZ literally taking up reality on a level far out of Beerus's scope of jurisdiction?
 
Xerkser500 said:
Dont care about the on-goining argument much but I do want to ask this because I don't remember.
When it comes to the Kai's saying "Jirens the strongest KI they ever felt", was anyone actually able to sense Infinite Zamasu's power? Or was it Zamasu pre-timeline transformation?
Click to expand...
Gods, like Beerus and Shi were able to sense Infinite Zamasu's power
 
Like others have said, it's not just promotional material. Shin, Goku and Vegeta, they all have stated the same thing and they all were present when Zamasu became IZ.

I initially thought of making a blog but there's nothing blog-worthy about it. I think linking the scans of the aforementioned statements to Jiren's page should be enough.
 
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