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Regarding Cross Verse Scaling
- Thread starter Ionliosite
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I can at least see where Ryukama is coming from, but I'm still seeing some false equivalencies. In Jiren's case, it is a literal in verse statement coming from Whis; Jiren being stronger than Infinite Zamasu can easily be told by the fact that Beerus and Whis has sensed both their power levels; which they're both unimpressed by Zamasu, but Beerus was scared shitless by even a fraction of Jiren and UI Goku's power.
Also, stating characters personal characteristics such as height, weight, age, gender, favorite color, orientation, ect are just simple stuff about the character. It has nothing to do with inverse power scaling or the balance of the tiering system. So the stuff about Genos' favorite color being blue doesn't really hold up. And I still agree with the Boros vs Garou statements given the moon jump and Saitama recognizing only those two as being truly strong.
But, the Mob vs Tatsumaki comes from two characters who lack each others speed or power feats respectively. Tatsumaki does have some speed feats similar to other S-Class heroes and is above everyone except perhaps Lightspeed Flash. I know neither one of them have shown to struggle with any low end feats, but I'm still iffy on making an exception for our cross scaling standards. Which I know Sera has also given complaints about people scaling from statements without either demonstrations or statements being lore statements mentioning feats in their backstories.
Also, stating characters personal characteristics such as height, weight, age, gender, favorite color, orientation, ect are just simple stuff about the character. It has nothing to do with inverse power scaling or the balance of the tiering system. So the stuff about Genos' favorite color being blue doesn't really hold up. And I still agree with the Boros vs Garou statements given the moon jump and Saitama recognizing only those two as being truly strong.
But, the Mob vs Tatsumaki comes from two characters who lack each others speed or power feats respectively. Tatsumaki does have some speed feats similar to other S-Class heroes and is above everyone except perhaps Lightspeed Flash. I know neither one of them have shown to struggle with any low end feats, but I'm still iffy on making an exception for our cross scaling standards. Which I know Sera has also given complaints about people scaling from statements without either demonstrations or statements being lore statements mentioning feats in their backstories.
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This guy is as strong as this guy is a simple fact, just like this guy likes this color.
The perspective of the characters feats not matching up, is a vs perspective, authors aren't sitting there analyzing how strong exactly this feat or that feat makes their characters, and they don't care what we think of their characters strength.
This isn't a case of characters from 2 different series, meeting in a crossover and interacting and performing feats above what they have shown in their own series, hence death of the author applies, this is a case of an author stating what he believes about the strength of the characters he created, and it isn't contradicted so far in their own series as they haven't struggled to perform their feats.
This is my opinion on it, Ryukama already said his final piece here and i am pretty much the same, as i think neither side here will relent.
The perspective of the characters feats not matching up, is a vs perspective, authors aren't sitting there analyzing how strong exactly this feat or that feat makes their characters, and they don't care what we think of their characters strength.
This isn't a case of characters from 2 different series, meeting in a crossover and interacting and performing feats above what they have shown in their own series, hence death of the author applies, this is a case of an author stating what he believes about the strength of the characters he created, and it isn't contradicted so far in their own series as they haven't struggled to perform their feats.
This is my opinion on it, Ryukama already said his final piece here and i am pretty much the same, as i think neither side here will relent.
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I don't personally have anything against the scaling nor do I mind if we keep it, it's just that some of the others do make good points that doing so anyway is technically giving the cross scaling special treatment. I can think of other examples in which two or more franchises both were made by the same director and the same company, but still wouldn't be used for scaling purposes despite statements.
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IIRC Wasn't Ultima using a similiar idea of the author statements between two unrelated franchise of David Lynch to give Twin Peaks Tier 0, and was rejected hard?
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Completly Agree with What Ryukama and CP said in Mob Vs Tatsumaki case.
The fact that firstly, we don't even know Mob's Full Power, his weaker state scale to casual Tier 7 feats so i don't see any problem with scale an unknow form stronger than everything in his verse to another characters from a different serie written by the same author which stated that between both, he don't truly know who could win, that's really not different from a non contradicted WoG statement. Lacking Speed and AP isn't really a problem due to the simple fact that Mob hasn't demonstrate his full power but the author tell us that he approaching Tatsumaki's level, nothing less, nothing more.
So i vehemently disagree with Removing the statements from Mob's profile, t'ats basically my Opinion.
The fact that firstly, we don't even know Mob's Full Power, his weaker state scale to casual Tier 7 feats so i don't see any problem with scale an unknow form stronger than everything in his verse to another characters from a different serie written by the same author which stated that between both, he don't truly know who could win, that's really not different from a non contradicted WoG statement. Lacking Speed and AP isn't really a problem due to the simple fact that Mob hasn't demonstrate his full power but the author tell us that he approaching Tatsumaki's level, nothing less, nothing more.
So i vehemently disagree with Removing the statements from Mob's profile, t'ats basically my Opinion.
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There's no actual reason to remove the statement from Mob's page, as I said, we could perfectly just say he's "At least [Tier of his best feat] (Feat), likely far higher (ONE's statement)". The problem here is actually scaling Mob to Tatsumaki, given scaling between 2 totally unraleted series only brings more problems than benefits.
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I also recall Matthew Schroeder mentioning on another thread saying he agrees with not using the cross scaling.
MrKerf
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An interesting discussion. We really need to look at cross-verse scaling case by case. But Mob and Tatsu case is pretty clear. This statement is logical, doesn't have anti-feats, and comes from the author himself. I would've understood, if there were some contradictions, which would put in question One's words, but there aren't any. It is his characters after all. So, siding with Ryu on this one. I'm for using WoG no matter what, until we will get anti-feats or it'll get logical problems.
Also, what is a Death of the author? It sounds like smt that should be in a VS Glossary, but nope.
Agnaa
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I'm neutral on whether to cross-scale here or not. I'm not generally in favor of it, but that's because every other example I can think of has tons of issues, but Tatsu/Mob scaling doesn't have those practical issues.
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Sure but most other cases I can think of have more obvious issues, where there are extreme power level differences but without the relevant characters being far above the rest of the cast with only casual feats to their name. Or where taking that scaling seriously causes contradictions within the original texts themselves.
This example is so nuanced that, ever since I'd heard about it ages ago, I've never had a strong opinion either way.
This example is so nuanced that, ever since I'd heard about it ages ago, I've never had a strong opinion either way.
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Yeah, but the thing is that Mob's key that scales to Tatsumaki is unimaginably far beyond his previous key and anyone else in the series, and all of its feats are casual.
So even though the jump from High 7-C (the people that he stomps) to High 6-C (Tatsumaki scaling) is large, there aren't any contradictions as there usually are in similar cases, so it becomes a philosophical discussion about whether we want to allow this cross verse scaling in the first place, which I don't have a much of an opinion on.
So even though the jump from High 7-C (the people that he stomps) to High 6-C (Tatsumaki scaling) is large, there aren't any contradictions as there usually are in similar cases, so it becomes a philosophical discussion about whether we want to allow this cross verse scaling in the first place, which I don't have a much of an opinion on.
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They are no contradiction since WoG statement is for a form absurdly higher than anythings in the verse including his 100% self who perform tier 7 feat like nothing. there is no contradiction since we don't know the limit of his strongest form although ONE stated that he approach Tatsumaki's level which is High 6-C. i don't see any scaling problems in this.Antvasima said:
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NoKLOL506 said:
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Saitama fodderizes Garou once he reaches his serious mode who in turn fodderizes Tatsumaki.
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Saitama's rel+ comes from Geryuganshoop, Tatsu being comparable to the alien is not that far fetched.
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To be fair, I'm not quite sold up one Geryuganshoop's "Near lightspeed" statement. Plenty of characters and verses use statements like that and still didn't get Relativistic let alone with a "+" sign accepted.
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The speed isn't a problem either since her MHS+ feat was casual. Tatsu being faster than that at her best isn't surprising, so i don't see any speed contradiction.Antvasima said:
Mephistus
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Unless given contradictions, which plainly they aren't any frickin anti-feats here for either, its not unlike saying Tats would be struggling with ending Golden Sperm's life in top shape, likewise she would stomp a normal Mob and not have trouble reacting to hurt him and fork over his barrier.
ONE didn't throw out the statements in jest, so yeah.
Pretty much agree with Ryuk's stance on this matter all the way.
ONE didn't throw out the statements in jest, so yeah.
Pretty much agree with Ryuk's stance on this matter all the way.
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^^ I stand firm on this.Ionliosite said:
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I'am still in agreement with Ryuk, CP and my opinion regarding Mob's ranting.
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As long as Ion's suggestion doesn't end up allowing the inclusion of author statements under a "far higher" if those statements are inconsistent/contradictory (such as ones scaling tier 9s to tier 5s, or scaling an author's characters to a different author's characters), then I have no issues with his proposal. I just don't want those sorts of really bad statements on profiles at all.
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Of course, if said statements are inconsistent/contradictory, there's no reason to include them at all because of Statements rules.
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I don't mind lonliosite's suggestion.
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I'm gonna have to agree with Ryuukama here. I was always on the side of scaling being viable.
That said, is it possible to just have 2 versions/keys that include the scaling or not?
That said, is it possible to just have 2 versions/keys that include the scaling or not?
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That's what lionliosite is proposing
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......This again huh?
Standing with Ryukama here obviously. The statement being compared to other cases of WoG cross-verse scaling is pretty misleading since most other statements either have power-gaps obscenely larger than this to go around, far greater differences in power systems and plenty of contradictions. Not to mention how the comparisons are made between franchises with completely differing authors and views on the scale and power of their characters.
Here, a character that (after OPM revisions) demolishes almost everyone in S-Class and most of the Monster Association.....by casually releasing some of his energy while walking (with no intent of doing so), is being compared to Tatsumaki while giving it his all. There no other abilities he has that would allow him to hold his own without comparable raw power, it isn't contradicted by anything in either verse and the author has proven to be reliable in his WoG.
The statement has every bit as much validity as any other statement being made between characters from the same verse and in some cases even more so, yet we're trying to get rid of it because ONE arbitrarily loses any and all authority he has over his characters because they're from two different continuities that he created and has full creative control over.
Well, if it gets discarded despite this then 'At least 7-A, likely far higher' woud be fine. Not that I agree with it.
Standing with Ryukama here obviously. The statement being compared to other cases of WoG cross-verse scaling is pretty misleading since most other statements either have power-gaps obscenely larger than this to go around, far greater differences in power systems and plenty of contradictions. Not to mention how the comparisons are made between franchises with completely differing authors and views on the scale and power of their characters.
Here, a character that (after OPM revisions) demolishes almost everyone in S-Class and most of the Monster Association.....by casually releasing some of his energy while walking (with no intent of doing so), is being compared to Tatsumaki while giving it his all. There no other abilities he has that would allow him to hold his own without comparable raw power, it isn't contradicted by anything in either verse and the author has proven to be reliable in his WoG.
The statement has every bit as much validity as any other statement being made between characters from the same verse and in some cases even more so, yet we're trying to get rid of it because ONE arbitrarily loses any and all authority he has over his characters because they're from two different continuities that he created and has full creative control over.
Well, if it gets discarded despite this then 'At least 7-A, likely far higher' woud be fine. Not that I agree with it.
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Sorry Dien, was busy so couldn't catch up to the entire thread
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is there a list of verses that would be affected by this? im very interested in how big the list might be.
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