Regarding Cross Verse Scaling

[Epiccheev]

That's exactly why Death of the Author exists. You're doing nothing but proving that this is unreliable to work with and doesn't adress, for example, my point of Garou vs Boros' statement being unreliable.

The manga is, primarily an adaptation of the webcomic, ONE ( by saying their fight would be one hell of a battle) has let his intentions and toughts about said characters scaling clear. Murata even doubles it by saying (SaitamaxGarou would be on an ever bigger scale than Saitama x Boros)

We have the author saying he believes the characters are comparable and the artist saying he will give the characters comparable feats when he redraws the fight. Ignoring that at this point is honestly, overly paranoid.

As i see it, ONE isn't overly reliable in comparing Mob with Tatsumaki since Murata's redraw amped her feats considerably from the webcomic made by ONE alone. Murata isn't overly reliable as he himself stated his Wog isn't entirely reliable and ONE knows stuff he doesn't.

When both agree Garou and Boros should scale, and they are going to try hard to make them comparable in the future then,yeah.

 

[Nico-v11]

I'm not calling NLF on him at all. I'm just saying that since he we haven't seen his fullest potential and only casualness then it is feasible to scale him to a character with the same power set created by the same author who the author himself says they are comparable.

 

[Nico-v11]

It's just not unbelievable for Mob to be much higher power when he himself towers above all others in his own verse.

 

[The_Calaca]

Like I said before, ONE ignored the CSRC existence which opens a big question as what's Garou scaling to exactly.

If Garou is fated to be as strong or stronger than Boros in the manga, so be it. But we have to wait until then, because the context is clearly different as he's currently scaling in the webcomic from a feat that happened in the manga. Two different medias.

 

[Nico-v11]

The webcomic and the manga are different interpretations of the same characters which is completely different from the scenario being presented. Which is not the same as with Mob and Tatsumaki which can just be scaled based on the web comic.

There's a reason why we have webcomic profiles and light novel profiles for the same characters for certain verses like Tensei Shitara Slime Datta Ke.

 

[The_Calaca]

But in this case we're compositing webcomic Garou (because Monster Garou isn't a thing yet in the manga) with manga Garou (current Half-Monster), and treating it like it's fine despite the clear problem with it.

Different interpretations with different scalings. The events are different and shouldn't be cross-scaled between versions. That's why verses like the one you quoted have different profiles for the different media.

 

[Ryukama]

Both instances of ONE saying Boros and Garou are equal came after the manga Boros fight came out. ONE is the main writer of the manga and supervises what Murata adds in. So he most likely came up with moon kick, or at least approved of it being put in. And even after that was put in he's still on record says they're equals.

 

[Epiccheev]

One's Statement about Garou and Boros came before or after their fight was done in the manga?

 

[Ryukama]

I think the Nico interview came afterwards (I could be wrong). However Murata saying that he's going to amp the scale of Garou vs Saitama due to ONE telling him they're equals certainly came after.

 

[Ryukama]

Also I don't know why people act as if feats are the only thing that is ever accepted here. Statements are constantly being used as long as nothing overtly contradicts them. Even if Garou's feats aren't as high (yet), we can still powerscale him to Boros due to ONE confirming they're equally strong. Just like Jiren doesn't need to absorb a timeline into himself to scale to Infinite Zamasu since he's stated to be the strongest foe ever.

Also it's kinda silly how people refuse to scale them unless they directly fight each other in the story, even when the writer of this story straight up confirmed what'd happen if they fought each other. We already know the answer to this. It doesn't need to literally be drawn out for us as well.

 

[Epiccheev]

That's exactly why Death of the Author exists. You're doing nothing but proving that this is unreliable to work with and doesn't adress, for example, my point of Garou vs Boros' statement being unreliable.
The authors don't know the details of the feats they work with so cross-scaling becomes much more complicated when we take into account that the difference between power-setting and power scale is considerably large, making the cross-scaling doubtful and unreliable. Especially in a case where the author isn't even sure how to deal with such questions.

So, in your opinion what would be reliable cases to use Wog?

This is setting up a huge standard of skepticism when it comes to author statements.

 

[The_Calaca]

Like I said before, the main problem with Garou = Boros is another that hasn't been adressed.

@Epiccheev WoG that are consistent with feats and showings.

 

[Tetsucabrah]

Iirc ONE's statement was that they were close in stats but Garou would have the advantage in close combat.

 

[Antvasima]

Well, I still think that crossover scaling is unreliable, given that it is based on no internal context/backing, just a guesswork author statement.

 

[ParadoxIndifferent]

I disagree with the cross-verse scaling, but agree with Ryuu on the Boros and Garou stuff.

 

[KLOL506]

I'm not a fan of cross-scaling either. Not only is death of the author a thing, but it can get carried away even further than what it is right now (remember when that false statement about Kishimoto saying EoS Naruto characters were Nappa level was going around?). Characters should be judged by their own feats, is what I'm saying.

I mean, EoS Nardoe is borderline Low 5-B and I think the Saiyan Saga characters pre Kaio-Ken x3 are gonna get downgraded to Low 5-B so......

On that note, I agree with Ryukama

 

[Ionliosite]

I still firmly believe if what stops disregarding Mob scaling to Tatsumaki is accepting Boros scales to Garou, then we should also disregard Boros scaling to Garou, specially because Garou has no feat even close to Boros' scale.

 

[Antvasima]

I agree with Ionliosite.

 

[ParadoxIndifferent]

> specially because Garou has no feat even close to Boros' scale.

What anti-feats does Garou have to invalidate the Word of God statement putting him on Boros's level?

 

[Ionliosite]

NOT having any feat close to Continent level? Let alone how high into High 6-A Boros is.

 

[ParadoxIndifferent]

An absence of feats does not invalidate the secondary evidence. If anything, it shows that there are no contradiction to the general idea, thus indirectly strengthening it.

Death of the Author should only be evoked if the statement is contradicted or is wildly out of scale with the shown feats. It is not out of scale for a character who survived Saitama's Serious Headbutt to be comparable.

 

[TheUnshakableOne]

so this thread isn't just about OPM, but most verses in general?

Is this thread about cross-canon scaling? Scaling characters from across multiple, but canon, materials including abilities?

 

[Ionliosite]

An absence of feats does not invalidate the secondary evidence.

So basically, if a character whose best feats are Tier 7 were to be compared to a Tier 4 character, we should accept it because there's no evidence saying otherwise?

 

[ParadoxIndifferent]

So basically, if a character whose best feats are Tier 7 were to be compared to a Tier 4 character, we should accept it because there's no evidence saying otherwise?

Wikipedia.org/wiki/Reductio_ad_absurdum.

It's not going to be a universal example. Appealing to the most extreme scenarios to refute an argument is flawed, at best.

Garou casually defeating Tier 7 characters is in no way an anti-feat for him being High 6-A. If there are no anti-feats and it's reasonable in-universe for him to be that strong, then it's logical for the author to be correct on his assessment regarding his own work. Meanwhile, you still have no valid reasons to reject his WoG other than misusing Death of the Author as a concept.

 

[Epiccheev]

I feel like Boros x Garou should have it's own thread, as this seemingly got through.

Btw, Are we going to stop all kinds of Cross Verse scaling or just make the rulings more strict?

 

[Ionliosite]

The ideal would be stopping all kinds of cross-verse scaling.

 

[TheUnshakableOne]

so this thread isn't just about OPM, but most verses in general?
Is this thread about cross-canon scaling? Scaling characters from across multiple, but canon, materials including abilities?

so the ultimate goal of this post is stopping all cross-canon saling??

 

[Ionliosite]

Well, given Mob and Tatsumaki set the standard that has been also used with Reinhard and Amakasu and was going to be used with Hawk Mama and Kongou, if the root is cut, the tree falls.

 

[TheUnshakableOne]

Would this affect something like Nasuverse??

 

[The_Wright_Way]

Fully support Tats and Mob scaling getting the ax. Neutral on Garou and Boros.

 

[Ionliosite]

Would this affect something like Nasuverse??

Why? All series in the Nasuverse share the same canon.

 

[The_Calaca]

For the last time: ONE's statement has a serious flaw and shouldn't be considered.

But knowing that Garou vs Saitama will have a similar if not greater scale based on Murata's words, rest assured, he'll come back to High 6-A anyway.

 

[TheUnshakableOne]

Would this affect something like Nasuverse??

Why? All series in the Nasuverse share the same canon.

i see that helps me clarify what you mean

Edit: I mean that helped me understand what was meant/intended better

 

[Ryukama]

ONE has repeatedly said that Boros and Garou are equals, and it's confirmed that Garou will be getting comparable feats in the manga. The statements are 100% true and there's no reason to get rid of it, even temporarily. It seems most people are becoming fine with keeping this.

Also again the Mob and Tatsu scaling is of the exact same nature as this statement. The whole "but they're from different stories though" is completely irrelevant, since as mentioned over and over both stories are by the exact same author. ONE doesn't magically lose his WoG when comparing 2 characters from the 2 stories he wrote if his WoG was valid when comparing 2 characters from 1 story he wrote. And every single time no one can actually give a reason as to why he would.

Sure crossverse scaling in general shouldn't be used, but that is because the vast majority of crossverse scaling cases are totally incomparable to this.

If you have 2 characters that were solely written and created by the exact same person, from different stories again solely written and created by the exact same person compared to each other by their author and nothing contradicts the statement then it's valid. If there's crossverse that doesn't fit all 3 of those categories then it is not.

 

[Tetsucabrah]

Cross scaling should be looked at on a case by case basis and not completely disregarded always.

 

[Dienomite22]

Garou and Boros scaling via WoG should stay. They have much more evidence of scaling to each other based on their perfomance against Saitama and Garou actually having superior feats to Boros when looking at webcomic only. Murata acknowledging ONE's WoG as true for the manga and stating Garou vs Saitama would be on a higher scale than Boros vs Saitama would already be enough to scale Manga monster Garou to Manga Boros. But if the problem comes from using WoG for something that hasn't happen then just split Boros and Garou's profile into webcomic and manga.

 

[The_Calaca]

Two oe three regular members agreeing with the statement versus several staff members against it.

I don't know. It seems that isn't enough.

Again, you haven't adressed the issue with the first case, and the lack of comparable feats alone should be enough to disprove the second, especially whenthe author itself isn't sure of what would happen.

 

[Tetsucabrah]

Not only are Mob and Tats from the same author but they have the same set of abilities. To my memory ???% Mob had never been tested or even remotely pushed and is basically the God of the verse.

I'll concede at the very least that scaling Mob to manga Tats is more iffy than web comic since it's a different continuity and the feats are amplified by superior visuals.

 

[Ryukama]

As I've already said, if X is reliably stated to be on par with Y, then X doesn't need as good feats as Y for us to powerscale them together. The Dragon Ball top tiers wouldn't have reached Tier 2 otherwise.

But for it to have also been confirmed that Garou will be getting comparable feats to Boros makes it that much more valid.

 

[The_Calaca]

The statement is flawed and you're still ignoring this. The way it is done, it's open to too many interpretations and is easily dismissable as ONE doesn't know the answer despite the fact Boros has an attack MUCH stronger than the attack Murata added in the remasterization.