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It's lazy. It's basically "I don't want to solve all the other bad cross scaling so we'll just get rid of it entirely".
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Regarding Cross Verse Scaling
- Thread starter Ionliosite
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- #242
We want to solve them, so we need to start by getting rid of the case that gave all others a pass.Tetsucabrah said:
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The subject at first hand is that you are arguing to wipe them all off because of cases where it was done wrongly.
Not using cross verse where there's no contradictions is just dumb.
Not using cross verse where there's no contradictions is just dumb.
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Right now there are TONS of more reasons to scale them than not to scale them.
Scaling them:
Created by the same author
WoG states they are comparable
They are both espers (same terminology from both verses)
Show very similar or identical powers
Both have comparable feats both being tier 6
Not Scaling them:
Different verses
Sets a precedent of leniency towards scaling cross verses in the wiki that would allow others to do the same
There are so many more reasons to scale them than not it's not even funny. The fact that we are using the excuse of "oh this is bad because it'll affect how we treat cross scaling in general" is fallacious due to it being completely irrelevant to whether we should scale them to begin with or not. It's called being scared and denying something despite everything pointing towards the scaling being right.
Scaling them:
Created by the same author
WoG states they are comparable
They are both espers (same terminology from both verses)
Show very similar or identical powers
Both have comparable feats both being tier 6
Not Scaling them:
Different verses
Sets a precedent of leniency towards scaling cross verses in the wiki that would allow others to do the same
There are so many more reasons to scale them than not it's not even funny. The fact that we are using the excuse of "oh this is bad because it'll affect how we treat cross scaling in general" is fallacious due to it being completely irrelevant to whether we should scale them to begin with or not. It's called being scared and denying something despite everything pointing towards the scaling being right.
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Yeah exactly. It's an arbitrary way of doing things and extremely lazy.LSirLancelotDuLacl said:
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This is above the realm of nonsense.Ionliosite said:
How does this fix anything? This is beyond dumb. The issue is people not doing it right, not it being allowed at all.
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- #247
I'm not denying Mob and Tatsumaki being right. I'm saying it's the one right that has led to many wrongs. Getting rid of it for everything else but giving a golden free pass to this would be a double standard, since this will end up being the ONLY case of this if we started getting of all other characters who are cross-scaled because these are. When you have this kind of problems, getting rid of the root that started all others is the logical step to take.Nico-v11 said:
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@Ionliosite
If it's right then there's no reason to not scale them. We've made exceptions to our rules plenty of times in the past. We can just easily place a note on the bottom of the profile pages explaining why we scale them to begin with.
We have an exceptional amount of evidence to scale them while there would be a very little amount of sense to scale characters like in Dissidia (Final Fantasy Crossover) where there's tons of different tiers floating around and scaling them makes no sense despite the fact they are the "same verse" and have actual interactions.
People are not stupid and we should not treat them as such. If people ask then we'll explain the exception. This being the ONLY case doesn't mean much when we've got plenty of those already.
If it's right then there's no reason to not scale them. We've made exceptions to our rules plenty of times in the past. We can just easily place a note on the bottom of the profile pages explaining why we scale them to begin with.
We have an exceptional amount of evidence to scale them while there would be a very little amount of sense to scale characters like in Dissidia (Final Fantasy Crossover) where there's tons of different tiers floating around and scaling them makes no sense despite the fact they are the "same verse" and have actual interactions.
People are not stupid and we should not treat them as such. If people ask then we'll explain the exception. This being the ONLY case doesn't mean much when we've got plenty of those already.
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- #249
Basically, we get rid of ALL other cases but this one, where we add a note as to why this one and only this one in particular is accepted but all other ones are disregarded? This totally sounds like the double standard I'm poiting out.
And I see no point on saying "People are not stupid and we should not treat them as such" when that has absolutely nothing with the problem at hand.
And I see no point on saying "People are not stupid and we should not treat them as such" when that has absolutely nothing with the problem at hand.
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If the problem at hand is people doing cross verse scaling incorrectly, then the simple answer is reviewing it case by case and making some simple guidelines to show it is very strict, like black hole and light being actually light requirements.
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- #251
If you're willing to write such thing, do it. I'll like to see such thing.
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No I meant putting that on Mob and Tatsumaki's profiles only. We been putting notes on pages for exceptions for a long time now. It's not a double standard when the facts completely negate the standard to begin with.
Stopping something true from being allowed because of what others will do in the future is completely treating them as stupid. "You can't do this thing because of what dumb things people will do later."
Stopping something true from being allowed because of what others will do in the future is completely treating them as stupid. "You can't do this thing because of what dumb things people will do later."
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That's kinda hard as others still take issue with it and I'd like to see what they think, if they are hopefully still capable of checking the thread.
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- #254
I know you meant that, adding that to all other profile would make no sense whatsover.Nico-v11 said:
I don't even get what you're talking about, so I'll ignore this.Except disallowing all forms of cross-scaling but one is a double standard. Nico-v11 said:
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If WoG states that one character from one series they wrote is equal to another from another series they wrote then there is no issue in scaling them, like Ryukama said, this is the same as scaling a character to another in the same verse via a statement, which is fine so long as it isn't contradicted.
If this WoG scaling causes contradictions, i.e, being absurdly above anything else in the verse, or thsy the character scales to, or if the character is shown to not be on the level that the scaling would put them at, the disregarding the statement makes sense. That's what death of the author is for, for when what the author intended is opposed by what the story shows, not for just arbitrarily going "Yeah this is a nice statement, and isn't inconsistent, but I don't like it, so death of the author."
If this WoG scaling causes contradictions, i.e, being absurdly above anything else in the verse, or thsy the character scales to, or if the character is shown to not be on the level that the scaling would put them at, the disregarding the statement makes sense. That's what death of the author is for, for when what the author intended is opposed by what the story shows, not for just arbitrarily going "Yeah this is a nice statement, and isn't inconsistent, but I don't like it, so death of the author."
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It isn't the same. Mob doesn't exist at all on the OPM canon. Tatsumaki doesn't exist at all on the MP100 canon. Both series are unrelated settings with their own lore. This is totally different from scaling characters within the same series.Paul Frank said:
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"Except disallowing all forms of cross-scaling but one is a double standard."
Not if we review cross-scaling on a case by case basis and decide whether they are acceptable or not. It doesn't "have" to be the only case because maybe in the future a very similar case may occur, we don't know. It's not a double standard when it is correct to scale them while cross scaling the rest is wrong. It's about modifying the standard slightly that is all.
Yeah let's just drop the last bit.
Not if we review cross-scaling on a case by case basis and decide whether they are acceptable or not. It doesn't "have" to be the only case because maybe in the future a very similar case may occur, we don't know. It's not a double standard when it is correct to scale them while cross scaling the rest is wrong. It's about modifying the standard slightly that is all.
Yeah let's just drop the last bit.
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They have the exact same powers. The different setting means nothing. Like actually nothing.
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- #259
There's NO standard tho. As in, Crossovers or Cano are the closest to being related to cross-scaling, and both say that scaling from different canons and unrelated verses is disallowed.Nico-v11 said:
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- #260
Accelerator is also an Esper, but his setting is totally different. Different verses and different canons mean a lot.Tetsucabrah said:
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Except for the part where they are espers made by the same author.
You keep conveniently forgetting little fact bits like that.
The only reason "different verse" is an issue is because of the likely fact the author doesn't care about power scaling as we do and would be more willing to do a big mistake. Which doesn't really matter when is quiet clear there's nothing contradicting this.
You keep conveniently forgetting little fact bits like that.
The only reason "different verse" is an issue is because of the likely fact the author doesn't care about power scaling as we do and would be more willing to do a big mistake. Which doesn't really matter when is quiet clear there's nothing contradicting this.
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- #262
They being made by the same author doesn't change they're different canons, both being "Espers" is totally not reasoning at all to scale between different verses, or are we scaling Amakasu's Gods to High 1-A just like Mercurius because they are "Gods" made by the same author?LSirLancelotDuLacl said:
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Considering that they are treated completely different, have no feats that are comparable to each other, and no statements about them being comparable, no.
Or are there any other half-baked, fallacious comparisons you wanna bring up?
Or are there any other half-baked, fallacious comparisons you wanna bring up?
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It is half baked to simply use the argument of "same word". Hadou Gods and Senshinkan Gods do not have any statements that put them the same and they are not even Gods for the same reason. I don't need to point out the obvious fact the second don't have the Taikyou of the first, the whole reason for their tier. Not only are Mob and Tatsumaki close in power, their "esper" powers barely differ. Not that I know why does differing power systems even matter.
It actually isn't. It has nothing to the exclusion of inclusion of cross-verse scaling, only in the case of actual crossovers and not comparisons.
It actually isn't. It has nothing to the exclusion of inclusion of cross-verse scaling, only in the case of actual crossovers and not comparisons.
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@ion
But why does that make it unusable. Okay character A doesn't exist in the same setting as character B. But both character A and B, and their settings are made by the same person. This person's word would be used if they were saying character A is equal to their classmate so long as it wasn't contradicted. Now why doesn't this carry over to when character A is compared to character B in the same way? "Different setting" isn't really a good reason, the author wrote both stories, the author knows their own story generally, death of the author doesn't apply because its not contradicted.
At this point we are literally just left with "Its a different setting, made by the same person, and in any other case their word would have been accepted, but I don't wanna."
It being the same setting doesn't suddenly mean it makes more sense to scale people to other characters via WoG. The author made both verse 1 and verse 2, so why can their word be used to scale characters within verse 1 to eachother, or verse 2 to eachother, but suddenly they become unreliable when it comes to scaling verse 1 to verse 2
Does the author of both series suddenly not get a say on their powers because its not the same verse. Again, if there are contradictions or things that otherwise give a reason why the author's word should be refuted, then it makes sense not to scale them. Other than that, there is literally no reason not to
But why does that make it unusable. Okay character A doesn't exist in the same setting as character B. But both character A and B, and their settings are made by the same person. This person's word would be used if they were saying character A is equal to their classmate so long as it wasn't contradicted. Now why doesn't this carry over to when character A is compared to character B in the same way? "Different setting" isn't really a good reason, the author wrote both stories, the author knows their own story generally, death of the author doesn't apply because its not contradicted.
At this point we are literally just left with "Its a different setting, made by the same person, and in any other case their word would have been accepted, but I don't wanna."
It being the same setting doesn't suddenly mean it makes more sense to scale people to other characters via WoG. The author made both verse 1 and verse 2, so why can their word be used to scale characters within verse 1 to eachother, or verse 2 to eachother, but suddenly they become unreliable when it comes to scaling verse 1 to verse 2
Does the author of both series suddenly not get a say on their powers because its not the same verse. Again, if there are contradictions or things that otherwise give a reason why the author's word should be refuted, then it makes sense not to scale them. Other than that, there is literally no reason not to
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- #267
That's what I'm saying. All the guides we have on the wiki state that scaling between different verses is wrong... but none speak of cross-verse scaling statement, because even Crossovers is all about characters actually meeting and fighting. Basically, there's no politic even saying cross-scaling is a thing beyond what Crossovers and Canon state, and both say scaling between different canons is a no-non.LSirLancelotDuLacl said:
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Because cross overs very rarely care for actual, proper power scaling and are rarely made with stuff by the same author. That's the sort of thing the page doesn't even account for. Even if it was the same author, it doesn't suddenly mean scaling is a possibility, as like anything else discrepancies get kicked into the void.
But not only is it the same author here, not only is he addressing the question of comparable power instead of a fight made without a care for the sake of explosive and flashy fun (which is common in these, just look at the One Piece/Toriko/Dragon Ball one), there's no discrepancies that would discredit this.
There are reasons these guidelines are a thing, and the guidelines itself aren't some God-made, inviolable rule. Forgetting the reasons and just blindly applying guidelines, especially for specific cases like this that aren't really discussed in the Canon or Crossover page, is not only misguided but seriously lazy.
But not only is it the same author here, not only is he addressing the question of comparable power instead of a fight made without a care for the sake of explosive and flashy fun (which is common in these, just look at the One Piece/Toriko/Dragon Ball one), there's no discrepancies that would discredit this.
There are reasons these guidelines are a thing, and the guidelines itself aren't some God-made, inviolable rule. Forgetting the reasons and just blindly applying guidelines, especially for specific cases like this that aren't really discussed in the Canon or Crossover page, is not only misguided but seriously lazy.
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Not really the thread to ask this, but I think no.TheUpgradeManHaHaxD said:
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Which is why I'm saying, if you're so willing to make actual guidelines for this, I'm all in for the idea. It'll help a lot to deal with the cross-scaling problem if we had rules about them that aren't what's said on Crossovers and Canon right now.LSirLancelotDuLacl said:
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We should delete this entire wiki because it involves us comparing characters from entirely different settings and power systems
For real though us entirely disallowing cross verse WOG when the author made both is kinda hypocritical when we, as a hobby, compare entirely different verses regularly. Sure, authors are more prone to just deciding who is stronger than who or what based off their own feelings rather than statistical analysis, I don't see why, beyond irrevocable inconsistency, we should completely disallow authors from doing the same sort of thing we do all the time
For real though us entirely disallowing cross verse WOG when the author made both is kinda hypocritical when we, as a hobby, compare entirely different verses regularly. Sure, authors are more prone to just deciding who is stronger than who or what based off their own feelings rather than statistical analysis, I don't see why, beyond irrevocable inconsistency, we should completely disallow authors from doing the same sort of thing we do all the time
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Oh no, I took you serious when you said that, but like I said, I'd actually like to see if any of the other people or mods or whatever against it have anything else to say. I'd actually like to see how factible they consider cases like this, since people like Ryukama and Dargoo quite obviously don't agree with the severity of it in specific cases like these but that won't apply to everyone, or if there's just anything else they think makes this too impossible that I haven't heard yet.
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After reading through the thread I'm starting to think cross verse scaling should be allowed, or at least case by case
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Crossover scaling should definitely not be allowed in general. It is usually far too unreliable.
As for this particular case, given that the statistics seem to be close on their own, and the characters have the same single author and similar powers, the main problem is that it sets a bad precedent for other verses, as some members in this wiki will use any opportunity for unreliable upgrades for their favourite verses. However, I suppose that this could be solved if we write strict restrictions/regulations/requirements for such situations.
As for this particular case, given that the statistics seem to be close on their own, and the characters have the same single author and similar powers, the main problem is that it sets a bad precedent for other verses, as some members in this wiki will use any opportunity for unreliable upgrades for their favourite verses. However, I suppose that this could be solved if we write strict restrictions/regulations/requirements for such situations.
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>There's no supporting feat even close to Tatsumaki's
Aged badly with 100% Mob having a quite easy 6-C feat lol
Aged badly with 100% Mob having a quite easy 6-C feat lol
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Hm, what the statement was? "Tatsumaki is usually above Mob, but if he gets serious, I'm not sure", or something like that?The Calaca said:
I don't want to read through all of that but... isn't that REALLY clear? Especially with Mob's new calc?
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Nvm jjust saw
Anyway I'm still in support of keeping this
Anyway I'm still in support of keeping this
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Yeah, I fully agree here. We should make actual policies to set the rules on this kind of cases, because as things stand right now, Crossovers and Cano gives us that scaling between totally different canons isn't allowed. So if anyone is willing to write actual restrictions for cases like this so they can used in the future, I'll gladly hear them.Antvasima said:
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I agree with Schnee and DMUA, looking case by case to see if it's inconsistent is better than arbitrarily deciding to not use any
Setting strict criteria isn't all that necessary either:
Is it made by the same author?
Is this obviously inconsistent (i.e way above or below any other feats) with the character who the author says is X character's level?
If the answers to these are yes, and no respectively, there is really no issue with it
Setting strict criteria isn't all that necessary either:
Is it made by the same author?
Is this obviously inconsistent (i.e way above or below any other feats) with the character who the author says is X character's level?
If the answers to these are yes, and no respectively, there is really no issue with it
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