Regarding Cross Verse Scaling

[Ryukama]

Yes Mob and Tatsu are from different settings. Different settings that again were written and created by the exact same person. What magical force suddenly makes an author's words completely unreliable once he's dealing with 2 characters from 2 stories he wrote when he knew what he was talking about when dealing with 2 characters from 1 story he wrote? "Oh this guy had a perfect grasp on how powerful his own character was and was properly able to compare the power of another character he wrote before. But now this other character of his he's comparing them to was in a different story, so now he lost the ability to properly compare the power of his own characters. If only this character happened to be in the same story, then he'd suddenly be able to properly know how they compare to each other."

These are all literally the exact same arguments from before if you read the other threads.

 

[Ryukama]

One difference is that Boros Vs Garou was comparing two characters from the same verse. But just because two or more characters are from the same company doesn't mean they're truly knowledgeable about power-scaling. The idea that Doomguy is stronger than the strongest Elder Scrolls characters is as I mentioned, very arbitrary.

It's not the "same company". It's the same singular author who has sole creative control over both stories, rather an entire group of people who all have different input and thoughts on these franchises. Does the Doom franchise and Elder Scrolls even have the same writers at all? It's a very flawed analogy here.

Also Doomguy being stronger than Elder Scrolls top tiers has loads of contradictions. The guy who's S-Class level by merely walking being on Tatsumaki level when going all out isn't contradicted.

 

[Damage3245]

> Garou was the fated rival Boros was looking for, and I have read that he did it pretty well against Saitama during their final fight, comparing him to Boros.

When is that mentioned?

 

[The_Calaca]

The force known as Death of the author.

Plus you'd need to prove that ONE knows the exact power output both can generate to compare them so equally. Especially considering Mob's feats ain't nowhere near Tatsumaki's level and has other abilities to compensate for it.

 

[Ryukama]

On top of that Garou vs Boros has a plot background to rely on, not just uncertain WoG. Garou was the fated rival Boros was looking for, and I have read that he did it pretty well against Saitama during their final fight, comparing him to Boros.

No. Garou was never once stated or implied to be the warrior prophecized for Boros. That's just a fan theory made because of ONE's statement. And Saitama never directly compared Garou to Boros. He just called both of them "very strong." (Well technically he called Garou "strong, maybe very strong")

Boros and Garou honestly have nothing to do with each other within the story. If the other one didn't even exist their arcs would probably still go as they did.

 

[Ryukama]

The force known as Death of the author.
Plus you'd need to prove that ONE knows the exact power output both can generate to compare them so equally. Especially considering Garou's feats ain't nowhere near Boros's level and has other abilities to compensate for it.

Again every gripe people have with one statement can be had about the other. Either both are fine to use or neither of them are.

Also ONE may not pixel scale his clearly not up to scale drawings like this site does. However he should at least have a general idea of "Oh X is stronger than Y". Do you think Toriyama really knows or cares what level we have DB characters on? No, but he still knows when one person is stronger than the other.

 

[Ionliosite]

From what I'm seeing, I think we should just go Death of the Author full force and stop scaling Boros to Garou.

 

[Antvasima]

@Ryukama

Thank you for responding.

The main problem is that this creates a very bad precedent, so we have to deal with recurrent threads in which members want to scale between different verses based on author statements, regardless that it usually severely contradicts the established scale in one of them.

 

[Ryukama]

There are no other scenarios in which the sole author and writer of 2 stories compared characters from those stories to each other with nothing contradicting that statement. And if there is, that case is also valid. Any other attempts to scale different series which aren't of this nature are not. No reason to worry about some "very bad precedent". Also I have to deal with recurrent threads in which people keep making the exact same arguments over and over because of this. Any decision made on popular characters is bound to cause recurrent threads. It's the way things work here.

 

[The_Calaca]

******* Fandom ate my message and I rushed after hitting publish butto

Right, my bad about the prophecy.

The difference between both statements is that there's a contradiction. If ONE truly knows his character's power levels he'd be aware that his comparison between Garou and Boros opens a big question: What's Garou's scaling to, exactly? If he scales to Boros' physicals (which as I seen above, ain't High 6-A because the moon jump didn't exist in the webcomic) then he'd get rekt by CSRC because 180PT. But if he scales to CSRC he'd trash Boros since he'd not only be far stronger but also better at CQC.

Yeah, I'm going with dismissing both statements as the comparison between Boros and Garou is very vague as well. I'd scale Garou off his feats rather than powerscaling to Boros.

 

[Ryukama]

If the Boros vs Garou statement was also rejected, I'd heavily disagree with that but would at least respect the consistency rather than this clear double standard that many people are putting on these statements.

 

[Ionliosite]

There are no other scenarios in which the sole author and writer of 2 stories compared characters from those stories to each other with nothing contradicting that statement.

Well, I linked a thread where Hawk Mama (a god tier of her verse rated as At least High 6-B) was going to be scaled to Kongou (6-A from a different verse by the same author) because of WoG. And of course, there's also the whole Reinhard to Amakasu's god scaling that's used on the Shinza Banshou profiles because Senshinkan was done by the same author.

 

[The_Calaca]

This thread is to precisely delete the double standard, Ryukama. Uncalled to say we're asking for it when that's the opposite thing we want to get through.

 

[Ryukama]

Going off the threads I've engaged in, the majority of people who try to get Mob downgraded still find the Boros and Garou statement to be valid. Even when all these same "death of the author" and "what if the author didn't really know how strong his characters were" arguments can be applied to both. That's what I mean to be the double standard.

 

[The_Calaca]

Well, the only thread I saw about this is one I decided to not participate. But both should be treated equally, and it's obviously a problem to keep one and reject the other.

So I'm all for dismissing both.

 

[QuasiYuri]

If it's for 2 characters of the same verse, I think we should consider it as legit as long as something in the story seems to imply the same.

However cross-verse scaling should be considered as a Death of the Author

 

[Schnee_One]

Going off the threads I've engaged in, the majority of people who try to get Mob downgraded still find the Boros and Garou statement to be valid. Even when all these same "death of the author" and "what if the author didn't really know how strong his characters were" arguments can be applied to both. That's what I mean to be the double standard.

Garou and Boros exist in the exact same series, but I'm all for deleting that statement

 

[Ryukama]

Garou and Boros exist in the exact same series

I don't know how many times I have explained that this is a completely arbitrary difference. They are both stories that were written and created by the exact same person. You even agreed with me in the last thread.

 

[Antvasima]

I strongly agree with Calaca.

 

[Schnee_One]

Then kill both

 

[Tetsucabrah]

Hold up, what? Why is the Boros and Garou statement being disregarded now?

 

[Antvasima]

We are only supposed to discuss cross-fiction scaling in this thread, so I am not sure.

 

[Damage3245]

Yeah, let's save that for an actual CRT.

 

[Ionliosite]

Hold up, what? Why is the Boros and Garou statement being disregarded now?

Because Ryukama says Boros being compared to Garou and Mob being compared to Tatsumaki have equal validity and using one but ignoring the other is a double standard.

 

[Antvasima]

One is an in-universe comparison, and the other is not though. Given that Saitama had to exert himself to a similar degree against both Boros and Garou (as far as I have understood), it also seems to make sense. I do not think that we use the statement on its own.

 

[Ryukama]

Hold up, what? Why is the Boros and Garou statement being disregarded now?

I don't think it should be. My entire point is that since we accept that statement we should accept this as well. All of these "death of the author" or "well what if the author doesn't actually know how strong their characters really are" arguments can be applied there too. However we've decided since ONE is the one who created these characters and there is nothing that contradicts the statement, that it's acceptable to use. It should be the same case here. But if one is going to be discarded, then at least be consistent and discard both.

 

[DarkDragonMedeus]

Yeah, Boros and Garou are both seen as foes comparable to a semi-serous Saitama is the main point. Tatsumaki and Mob have nothing notes from Author and no demonstration of fighting anyone who fought both of them. Saitama headbutted Garou with the same level of force as when he deflected the Collapsing Star Roar Canon.

 

[Antvasima]

But don't we have the context of Boros and Garou doing similarly well against Saitama for context? I think that it is allowed to use author statement in combination with other evidence according to our rules pages, as long as there are no contradictions to what has been revealed in-universe and it fits with the existing pattern.

 

[Ryukama]

Given that Saitama had to exert himself to a similar degree against both Boros and Garou (as far as I have understood)

Literally nothing suggests this. Saitama doesn't exert himself with anyone at all. That's the whole point of the series. Saitama has even recently admitted that he doesn't actually have a killer move and that every fight (including the ones where he's used "Serious Punch") were all won with normal punches. You can't really compare characters based on how much Saitama decided to humor each of them. Saitama could've instantly and effortlessly ended both Boros and Garou from the beginning, and he never compares these two to one another. The only thing that directly compares them is ONE's statement.

 

[Antvasima]

Hmm. you seem to have a point that the statement might have to be disregarded for scaling between Boros and Garou in that case.

 

[Ryukama]

But don't we have the context of Boros and Garou doing similarly well against Saitama for context?

Garou actually dodges and withstands far more punches than Boros did. Not that it matters since again Saitama was just humoring both of them and could've instantly and effortlessly ended them if he wanted. But even off of this metric the two aren't explicitly comparable. It's only ONE's statement that directly compares them.

But there is nothing wrong with using this statement. He is the author, and nothing contradicts it. We've used WoG and official statements in the past. Pretty much every DBS fighter worth their salt is Tier 2 primarily due to an official statement (and some character statements but if anything actual WoG should be placed higher than a character statement)

If we can use statements from reliable characters as long as nothing contradicts it, then there is no reason not to use a statement from the very person who writes all of these characters and everything they say or do.

We demand a feat but ONE is the person who writes the feats. If Boros and Garou were to actually fight, they would be evenly matched as he confirmed. We don't need ONE to actually put this in his story as long as he's told us that this is what he would put. It's like demanding a chapter were Genos says his favorite color is blue in order to believe ONE if he said blue is Genos's favorite color.

Similarly, ONE has confirmed that 2 other characters that he wrote would be evenly matched if they were to ever encounter one another. It doesn't need to actually happen because he's confirmed that it's what would happen.

 

[Epiccheev]

@Calaca Mob has no hax or power to make up for a power difference that level, the only thing he has is speed wich is not blitz-worthy,considering Tatsumaki's own reactions, and Energ absorption reflection up to his level, wich is only useful in a battle of attriction.

About their scaling, i'm sure that if we directly asked ONE what tier his character are he'd say 7-B, Mob destroyed a city passively with ???%'s earthquakes and Tatsumaki casually blocked bullets with enough power to destroy City Z, but that's just DC and the actual AP difference between both feats couldn't vary more.

This is further seen with Murata explicitely saying (about Evileye) Its power is multi-building level, and while his power did affect multiple buildings, a city block at most, the actual AP calc landed at 7-C+, showing even among Authors who care about this kind of stuff, can make a character planned at a specific level's AP change a lot depending on how said destruction is choosen to be portrayed.

About Garou-Boros scaling, Murata also said The scale of Saitama vs Garou will be much greater than Saitama vs Boros so while we don't have the actual feats yet, we at least know the Author fully intends to portray feats superior to Boros on their fight.

Saying this, however, i feel like as long as Cross Verse scaling exists this type of thread will just keep getting remade every time someone's scaling attempts gets denied. It's better for the wiki and the staff to just stick with calcs and reliable in-verse statements.

 

[Ryukama]

@Epiccheev I agree with most of what you said. However the Mob scaling is totally valid. Just because people keep making threads not understanding that doesn't mean we should give in and deny valid scaling. Imagine where the site would be if we gave into things as long as enough people made threads about it.

 

[The_Calaca]

People get wrong things accepted for that very same reason at the same time.

Like I said before, the whole statement comparing Boros and Garou is missing an essential point that hasn't been adressed, proving that ONE isn't being too specific about said power scaling and the fact that it takes into account the webcomic rather than the manga, which, as it was pointed above, lacks the moon jump which is the rating they both scale to.

This alone should dismiss the scaling of Garou to Boros unless we have New evidence in the manga when the time comes.

ONE doesn't know about the actual ratings of hischaracters if he thinks a 7-C is 8-B/8-A and the argument that he knows about his characters turns out to be wrong. So scaling Mob to someone hundreds of times stronger with no further evidence based on a statement like the above is even more iffy.

 

[Antvasima]

I think that Calaca makes sense.

 

[Ionliosite]

I also agree with Calaca.

 

[Epiccheev]

ONE doesn't know about the actual ratings of hischaracters if he thinks a 7-C is 8-B/8-A and the argument that he knows about his characters turns out to be wrong. So scaling Mob to someone hundreds of times stronger with no further evidence based on a statement like the above is even more iffy.

(Not ONE, Murata)

If i strictly wanted my characters to be mountain level and was writing a novel, i could just say they destroyed a mountain vaguely and boom 7-A.

If i'm a manga artist, and want to visually convey 7-A levels of AP, i can just draw a character blowing up a mountain.

Except we all know destroying a mountain can wield results from 7-C to 6-C depending on minor things like how many centimeters of trees you decide to draw, if there's clouds or snow on the top, if you draw rubble or just smoke, the angle of the scene, the method of said destruction etc.

While an artist who expresses his work through literature can directly convey the power level of his characters as he perceives it, an artist who uses drawings has to do so through art, wich will never be fully accurate to their own perception ,(as shown above, by murata drawing an attack who only affects a city block, but actually has a town level energy wield)

(Even then Murata also has some uncanny accuracy moments in his art, according to One Gouketsu<<< Orochi =~ Tatsumaki =~Golden sperm, and that scaling would already exist by feats alone, considering Tatsumaki's calc is seemingly getting nerfed to 6-C)

This is where Wog comes in(assuming nothing inside the plot contradicts it), the only way the portrayed feats would already be equal to the compared characters is if the authors were VSbattle junkies who calc every panel to make sure their feats are equal, but by then Wog would just state the obvious to us.

If an author needs to visually depict feats that not only are similar in DC, but in AP to his perception of a character's power, then well no manga,comic, anime or movie actor truly knows their characters powers enough to be taken seriously by this Wiki, rendering Wog useless in these cases

 

[The_Calaca]

That's exactly why Death of the Author exists. You're doing nothing but proving that this is unreliable to work with and doesn't adress, for example, my point of Garou vs Boros' statement being unreliable.

The authors don't know the details of the feats they work with so cross-scaling becomes much more complicated when we take into account that the difference between power-setting and power scale is considerably large, making the cross-scaling doubtful and unreliable. Especially in a case where the author isn't even sure how to deal with such questions.

 

[Nico-v11]

I agree with scaling them together because of how similar they are to begin with. They are both Psychics, they're powers are the same. ONE having been the one to create both verses treats the abilities in the same fashion as well as would know far better than we do on how to scale them.

If he's comparing two of his own characters as being of similar power then that means he believes that Mob is capable of recreating the same feats that she has.

A very important thing to note is that we have never really seen Mob's fullest potential just casual feats at ???%. There's nothing telling that he CAN'T do what she can other than the fact that he hasn't done so.

 

[The_Calaca]

Lol, another NLF for another ONE character.