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Regarding Characters who are "Far Stronger" than their previous form.

Dragonmasterxyz

Dragonmasterxyz

VS Battles
FC/OC VS Battles
Retired
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This has popped up in a recent thread I was involved in. Let's get straight to the point.

The Issue
We have characters who are astronomically stronger than their previous state, yet despite this they are placed as Unknown, instead of given a proper tier. My example comes from Dark Samus.

She reached Low 4-C by her second key and her final key is Unknown. The reason for this is that the final key is astronomically stronger than the second, but to an unknown degree.

My issue is that this should not end in an "Unknown" rating. The results should be;

"At least Low 4-C, likely far higher"

"Unknow" should not be the end result when said being is blatantly stronger than the previous form.

This should apply to any other verse as well, if we have any others who follow this rule.

TL;DR
Characters like this should be rated with an "At least [insert tier here], likely higher/far higher/etc, but not simply "Unknow"
 
I think that it's a bit nonsensical to claim that she would still be Low 4-C after this immense boost, and specifically 4-C seems arbitrary to me.

I don't know about others, but here, we have at least some vague way of quantifying the gap in power other than hyped up statements. If base is 6-C, and a barren plain is Low 4-C, then an entire planet is obviously far stronger than Low 4-c.
 
I agree with Kepe, having the characters be listed as "at least" their previous tier seems more logical than a leap to the next tier.
 
Of course I agree with Kep here. Jumping tiers abitrarily is always something I'm against. We have "at least" and "likely higher/far higher" for a reason.
 
I still go with the idea that unknown is the best in this scenerio. She clearly is not low 4-C anymore but stating x tier would be speculation.

It should also be added that she preformed the feat after being reduced to particles from a beat down by Light Suit Samus as well.
 
She should stay at unknown honestly.

The boost is astronomical, it's honestly arbitrary to say that she is still Low 4-C, and it's just as arbitrary to guess a tier.
 
Saitama is listed as Unknow, at least 5-B. Perhaps Dark Samus could have the same thing. Though a lot of people liked when Saitama had at least 5-B possibly far higher. A solid Unknow does seem like a rather boring rating unless we simply have no idea what tier it would be in. Additionally, it somewhat bans them from appearing in Vs threads in the first place since there's too much complication.

Perhaps Unknow, at least Low 4-C, likely far higher?
 
Saitama's implies like the series states, we don't know his limit. By feats, he's at least 5-B. On the other hand, we have a person who got stronger, but we don't know by how much.
 
We don't know exactly how much stronger but just by logic as Saik showed, we know it's definitely not low 4-C, hence why I recommend Unknown
 
There's no proof she isn't Low 4-C anymore. It doesn't matter if she gets an immense boost, if she has no feats we go by what we know
 
If a character has a form that makes him/her greatly stronger than in the previous one, but not enough to become any higher tier, then should be written "At least /level_name/, likely far higher".

In case when a character's form makes him/her clearly above the tier of previous form, but we can't actually determine its statistics due to some reasons, then should be writen "Unknow".

I think that we can use both cases.
 
The only question i have is let's say, Fighter A is 1.5x weaker than baseline 5-A. But than Fighter A's second form is way stronger than his first form which is again, 1.5x weaker than baseline 5-A.
 
That's the thing though.

Saying that her tier "is obviously" higher than before is not an argument. We can't actually determine that.
 
Considering the difference between the two feats?

It isn't really a stretch at all to say that the new form is >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> the previous one.

Unless you think that a barren wasteland is only marginally below an entire planet.
 
The new form is vastly stronger, which is why it gets a "likely far higher". Not sure why it's a problem.
 
Because the Low 4-C lowball has no business being there.

It's basically the reason why in the latest DB thread we avoided making everyone below Cell "At least Low 4-C, likely far higher"
 
We have a baseline, and all we know is the new form is vastly stronger.

I'm really not seeing the issue.
 
Ah, Wikia and its wonderful glitches eating notifications.

Either way, at this point I suppose that we should just agree to disagree.

It honestly feels wrong to me to say "at least Low 4-C" because it's like saying "I don't know the exact yield of this nuke, so it's at least stronger than a pistol".

Simply saying "much stronger" when it goes from almost no Phazon to an entire planet really doesn't make sense.

In this case we have more than a "she is so powerful!" statement. Can we use it to guess the exact tier? Of course not. But can you really say that it's barely twice as much compared to the previous one (which is what a Low 4-C lowball entails)?

If you guys think that an "at least, likely far higher" would be fine, I understand where you are coming from. Do I agree? No, I still think that unknown is more fitting. But i'll leave the decision to the majority

I guess that you could say that from an indexing point of view i'd rather take a "I don't know" than "at the very least stronger than a vastly weaker form while the latter was badly beaten up, and btw everything points towards a gap that is absolutely massive"
 
> It honestly feels wrong to me to say "at least Low 4-C" because it's like saying "I don't know the exact yield of this nuke, so it's at least stronger than a pistol".

That analogy has kind of nothing to do with the argument we're making.

It's more like "this nuke was 100 kilotons and it got an immense upgrade. We don't know how much, but all things considered it's at least above 100 kilotons"
 
And if you asked me the yield of nuke 2, I would tell you "I don't know".

But as I said, at this point is basically up to personal preference
 
I personally prefer an at least (lowball), likely higher. It would obviously be illogical for a stronger version to be weaker, so that sets an absolute minimum, and also allows for those keys to be actually used since they get real ratings. Rating them all as just unknown when the lower boundary is unknown doesn't seem like it does much in the way of being more precise, and only would serve to restrict what keys are actually usable.
 
i would argue its more like, "we know that this nuke is 100 kilotons, so we should rate the world's nuke population as at least 100 kilotons"

i think that most of the people here are ignoring the actual reasoning from the gap. A barren wasteland of with hints of phazon scattered here and there made dark samus go from 6-C to low 4-c. Said low 4-c did her feat after being beaten down literally to particles by light suit Samus. The form you guys are trying to rate as at least low 4-C becomes one with a living planet purely composed of phazon.

at the end, go ahead and place at least 4-c likely far higher if need be. but that rating is clearly wrong. Btw, off topic-ish, but shouldnt we rate complete infinity gauntlet mcu thanos as "at least 5-A" going by this logic?
 
I mean, the PMMM 5-Bs are only scaled to 5-A minus a joule instead of ending up in tier 4, this seems like a similar case to that where due to an unquantifiable strength boost, despite them being clearly far stronger we can't really rate them into a different tier. Thanos probably should be at least 5-A there, yes.
 
@Ever even if it is clearly wrong? also shouldnt we rate mcu thanos as at least 5-A?
 
Dang, the glitch about posting =/= following the thread made me miss out much of the conversation.
 
I'm onboard with Data. Phaaze-fused Dark Samus absorbed an exponentially greater amount of Phazon than Echoes Dark Samus. Saying "at least" her previous level is not even remotely accurate as an estimate. It's like comparing a pellet gun to a railgu and saying the latter is "at least" as strong as the former: Although it's an truthful statement, it's a very misleading one.

I would prefer leaving it as Unknown if we can't quantify her exact tier.
 
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