Regarding Busoshoku Haki (Armament Haki)

[CinCameron20]

I was talking in chat about an edit made on Katakuri's page that I just removed, and personally--I have some questions.

Under Katakuri's Abilities and Powers, Statistics Amplification and Power Nullification were listed under his abilities due to him being a Busoshoku Haki user. I personally agree that the former should be included since Busoshoku Haki users increase their defensive and offensive capabilities by covering parts of their bodies with haki--comparing a punch with a normal fist versus a brass knuckle.

However, I don't know about Power Nullification. In a way, I can see Physical Negation due to haki users being able to bypass the logia and paramecia affects on the physical body--such as when Garp hit Luffy. Is that considered a Limited version of Physical Negation? If not, what would it be classified as, and how would it work in a Versus match when regarding Verse Equalization.

I'd really like input on both abilities when looking at Busoshoku Haki.

 

[Davidsteel1]

I'm no expert on OP and the mechanics of their powers, but I'd imagine that haki should be some form of limited physical negation (maybe it should be specified on the page exactly what it's negating) but when it comes to verse equalisation; maybe it should be allowed to work against most forms of intangibility except a select few for instance intangibility that makes use of existing in or crossing through dimensional barriers.

 

[CinCameron20]

@David - Personally, I'm thinking that if a character casts a spell to turn their body into fire to burn enemies or ignore attacks on their body, a Busoshoku haki user in verse equalisation would have the ability to punch said character, but if a character goes into another dimension or uses something akin to Muso Tensei, it would be ineffective.

Now that I've had a moment to think about it, I'm wondering what other limited abilities Busoshoku haki could classify as. Koka (Hardening) on body parts is an example.

 

[Davidsteel1]

Hmm so negating elemental intangibility? Or something along those lines? I'm not familiar with Muso Tensei could u describe it? I definitely agree with the dimension thing, but what about intangibility like that of say Danny Phantom? It isn't elemental nor does it make use of crossing dimensional barriers, how do u suppose it should interact with that?

 

[CinCameron20]

@Davidsteel - Apparently Muso Tensei is a state of literally "nothingness" as in there is no presence in really any sense.

Danny Phantom, I believe could be classified as something that could be hit since he has a physical presence, but obviously we need more opinions on this matter. I have not explored ALL of the ability pages on the wiki.

 

[Davidsteel1]

Muso Tensei... this sounds OP More opinions would be beneficial. And u haven't explored ALL the ability pages... I'm kinda disappointed ƒÿö

 

[CinCameron20]

@David - Muso Tensei is from Fist of the North Star, not One Piece, just clarification. I'm just saying haki would probably not do anything against such an ability in a versus matchup.

 

[Davidsteel1]

Uh I meant OP as in overpowered

 

[CinCameron20]

@David - I got that, but I was not 100% certain if you knew if the ability came from another verse since you stated that you were not "well versed in One Piece". Sorry, just being cautious just in case.

 

[Davidsteel1]

Eh it's fine. No harm in being careful

 

[Antvasima]

I do not think that Haki remotely counts as power nullification, no.

I am uncertain about statistics amplification.

 

[CinCameron20]

Taken from the page: "Statistics Amplification is when a character raises their parameters in the middle of a fight, and this is not related to their base form or some sort of "hidden power" that has been hidden or held back.

These boosts are usually temporary and are specific to one or a number of statistics."

I can see this working with Busoshoku haki as long as it clearly listed as a boost in Durability and Attack Potency.

I agree that Power Nullification for haki seems wrong, but given that Busoshoku Haki can act as a tool to bypass logia and paramecia bodies in the One Piece verse--allowing users to touch them, I am wondering if that would classify as any powers we currently have on the wiki.

 

[Reppuzan]

@Antvasima

I'm the one who made the edit, so let me explain my reasoning.

I considered Busoshoku Haki to be Statistics Amplification since it raises the power of the user's blows above what they are normally. Raising one's strength stat beyond normal levels, is that not the definition of Statistics Amplification?

I threw Power Nullification on because it's effectively nullifying (at least temporarily) a Logia Fruit user's (or some equivalents) use of pseudo-intangibility. It's a highly specific case, but I've done the same for characters who can nullify regenerative abilities.

 

[Joseph619]

The statistic manipuiation of haki can't be quantified, what's the point of having it on profile? It won't have any effect on the tier

 

[Joseph619]

And Busoshoku Haki does not nullify anything other than logia intangibility. It can't be equalized outside one piece verse. I strongly disagree with power nullification, haki has never been treated as a particular hax ability even in One Piece. It's merely one of the many weaknesses of devil fruit users (like seawater and seastone)

 

[CinCameron20]

@Joseph - Not affecting the tier does not mean it would not have an effect on a Versus match. If two opponents are equal in every category, Busoshoku haki could easily give the physical edge to the opponent who wields the ability, and make it so that the damage he takes is lower, while the damage he dishes out is higher. It's much like how Resistance to certain forces can give an edge in a versus match. Like Luffy vs a physical brawler of equivalent physical abilities.

A 7-B can one-shot a 7-B if the gap is large enough, and the same could be said about a 7-B tanking attacks from another 7-B.

I think Power Nullification is pretty much down the drain at this point. Busoshoku haki in regards of it's in-verse powers are still not fully explored, and we'll need more information anyways. I was just wondering if it would classify as such under Limited Physical Negation, and it does not seem so.

 

[Joseph619]

Well I am not against Statistics amp but haki is rarely used in vs debates from what I have seen. But power nullification is a complete no go, since it's just another weakness for devil fruit.

 

[CinCameron20]

@Joseph - Well, no one ever takes into account that a character could take a branch or a pipe and imbue it with haki and use it as a shield or weapon.

 

[Antvasima]

Well, I can see statistics amplification then, but power nullification means completely turning off the powers of other characters, not just bypassing the protection afforded from some of them. It is most likely inaccurate to use here.

 

[Reppuzan]

@Antvasima

Like I said, it's a highly specific version, but it'd be similar to characters who can also turn off extremely specific abilities at will (i.e. those who prevent magic from working properly or others from regenerating). I'll follow through with whatever is deemed necessary though.

 

[Antvasima]

But the Logia users can still use their abilities. It is just the semi-intangibility that is negated, and it still works fine against anybody else that may be hitting them without haki.

 

[Omimi]

i dont think its as Statistics Amplification

haki act as powerup

 

[Reppuzan]

@Omimi

It's bolstering the power of your physical attacks. That's the most basic definition of Statistics Amplification possible.

@Antvasima

Hence why I specifically stated that it nullified their intangibility/body-material type resistance to physical attacks rather than anything else.

 

[CinCameron20]

@Omimi - Statistics Amplification is literally a buff to specific stats. Busoshoku haki boosts both defenses and physical offensive capabilities. A power-up is Statistics Amplification.

@Ant and Reppuzan- I'll look through the Power/Ability categories to see if i can find anything related to the other power of Busoshoku haki. I probably wont find anything.

 

[PaChi2]

wouldnt "Can hit intangible beings" be enough? They can even hit gas-like bodies like Caesars.

 

[Burning_Full_Fingers]

Dunno, that might be misleading since people who don't know about it would assume it means they can hit people with intangibility like Obito's or Lille Barro's. Pseudo Intangibility like what's on Katakuri's page should be better.

 

[CinCameron20]

It would be better if we actually listed types of Intangibility since we list characters to have them, but for different reasons, and it gives people the reason to flat out call Logia users intangible when that's not how it works. I like Sera's suggestion on her post regarding types of Intangibility.

Those who can convert their bodies into a substance whether Solid, Liquid, or Gas should be susceptible to being hit by Busoshoku haki users, but those like Obito who switch into another dimension or are physically NOT there are not vulnerable to haki.

 

[CinCameron20]

By the way, on the topic of Haki--since i'm looking through the categories for Powers/Abilities, shouldn't Haoshoku Haki have limited Empathic Manipulation, or one of the subsections for this power?

Haoshoku Haki users can easily influence and dominate the will of animals as shown several times in the manga, and those with weaker will power would be put in a seizure-induced state.

 

[Davidsteel1]

That seems to me more like an intimidation technique rather than empathic manipulation.

 

[Joseph619]

I am ok with overriding elemental intangibility by equalization with other verse. But noting else

 

[CinCameron20]

Okay, just to play the "here's the list of abilities on the table", and I'm going to include all 3 types of haki:

Busoshoku Haki: Statistics Amplification for AP and Durability and giving some level to resist the elements due to the increased protected granted by the armor (being able to resist flame-based attacks like Diable Jambe to an extent). It also grants the ability to touch the true body of someone who can turn their body into a physical substance like fire or water.

Kenbunshoku Haki: We do settle on Pre-Cognition and Enhanced vision, but I want to suggest that we use Extrasensory Perception for Pre-cognition and Enhanced Sight, as that's how the power was displayed in Dressrosa when looking as Usopp's feat, and Fujitora's perspective.

Haoshoku Haki: This is the most featless of the three, but I'd like to know if any of these would work: Limited Empathic Manipulation, or some type of "overpower" ability. Luffy and Rayleigh managed to pretty much control animals that attacked them or forced them into submission, hence why I bother bringing up the Empathic Manipulation.

If there's anything there that doesn't make sense, or something that would need to be included: point it out.

 

[CinCameron20]

bump

 

[Antvasima]

@Reppuzan Okay. Sorry about the misunderstanding.

@CinCameron20 That seems reasonable.

 

[Grudgeman1706]

I can agree with Cins proposal as well.