Armament Haki change (the sequel)

[SnookB]

While checking a few posts, I came across this

https://vsbattles.com/threads/armament-haki-changes.125037/

And was surprised it was accepted for very obvious in story reasons that no one brought up. Armament Haki's regeneration negation shouldn't be limited to unnatural regen only for a single reason.
While we see it negate the regenerating properties of Logia to tag their true bodies, the key character that changes the narrative here is Marco. Marco's a Zoan ability user who had his regeneration stunned by Garp's punch. As we know, Vegapunk recreates Zoan fruits exclusively due to the "Lineage Factor" or "Bloodline elements" those fruits specifically offer due to the ability belonging to a living organism. Lineage Factor is the blueprints of life itself, and is even shown to be basically DNA under a different name.

We're further told that the likes of Caesar can replicate Zoan fruits in the form of SMILEs via lineage factor manipulation that Vegapunk discovered. The same discovery that can alter the very genetic code of living organisms.

You could argue Marco is a "mythical" Zoan, so his fruit's creature being more a myth than an existing thing in the world might make it more like a Logia than your typical Zoan, but this is proven wrong.

Kaido, another mythical Zoan, was subject to getting his Bloodline Elements used to create Momonosuke's Zoan fruit, meaning his very DNA was used rather than the fruit itself.

In conclusion: Devil Fruits (or at the very least Zoans) can alter one's DNA, and the natural regeneration of a Zoan is within their genetic code rather than it being a layered form of regen like Logia users. This means Haki's Regen negation should have another layer of natural regeneration negation (limited) for leaving scars on Kaido's body, who is shown healing from stabs and slashes moments after them being inflicted.
This scales to characters with enough Haki potency only. So Oden, Zoro, and anyone we know has greater or comparable Busoshoku

 

[Damage3245]

But characters with ordinary regeneration / ability to heal don't have that regeneration negated by Haki attacks. Kaido can still regenerate from damage done to him with Haki (the attacks from the scabbards are noted by him to not even remain as scars unlike attacks from the likes of Zoro and Oden).

 

[SnookB]

But characters with ordinary regeneration / ability to heal don't have that regeneration negated by Haki attacks. Kaido can still regenerate from damage done to him with Haki (the attacks from the scabbards are noted by him to not even remain as scars unlike attacks from the likes of Zoro and Oden).

That's already explained in a seperate CRT about layered haki. If your Haki doesn't match up to the one you're attacking, you're less likely to cause permanent damage. Like Marco and Vista attacking Akainu with Haki (with a landing blow SFX) yet his body not being directly damaged.

Oden's Ryuou (which is just haki in Wano terms) left a permanent scar on Kaido because it far surpasses the scabbards.

 

[Damage3245]

I don't see where in the OP that it is shown that a Zoan's natural regeneration has ever been negated anyway. Marco using his flames to heal himself is not comparable to Kaido just recovering from injuries normally.

 

[SnookB]

I don't see where in the OP that it is shown that a Zoan's natural regeneration has ever been negated anyway. Marco using his flames to heal himself is not comparable to Kaido just recovering from injuries normally.

Marco's phoenix flames are part of his mythical animal. They're literally part of his genetic code, not an external ability. His creature isn't a phoenix that can shoot flames, it's a phoenix made of fire.
When Garp negged his regen with a punch, he effectively negated the regen natural to his genetic code.

When Kaido got a permanent scar from Oden's haki, his natural regen didn't heal it in moments, it just healed over the years like any old wound would.

 

[Kachon123]

Neutral leaning towards disagreeing as of right now.

 

[SnookB]

I don't see where in the OP that it is shown that a Zoan's natural regeneration has ever been negated anyway. Marco using his flames to heal himself is not comparable to Kaido just recovering from injuries normally.

Every Zoan's regeneration is "natural". Even if you don't accept devil fruits in general altering the genetic code, we have the story specifically saying that Zoan users have the ability within their genetic code, not some magical external factor.
Marco's body isn't intangible like a Logia either. Random fodder in the raid were stabbing into him and grabbing him (if it were a logia they wouldn't even touch them)

When Kizaru fires his beams, there's visible impact.

Marco's flames just so happen to instantly heal him. This is however negated entirely when hit by someone with powerful enough haki. In this case, Garp
https://cdn.****************.com/file/opctcb/onepiece/onepiecechapters_567_17.jpg


Unlike every other instance where we don't see blood or bruises, this time his body sustains the injury and doesn't regenerate it naturally. The same goes for Kaido, who doesn't sustain scars and wounds unless hit by powerful enough armament like Oden's.
This at the very least means armament on the tier of Oden, Garp, and overall the more advanced users of it, negates natural regen.

 

[Eminiteable]

That's already explained in a seperate CRT about layered haki. If your Haki doesn't match up to the one you're attacking, you're less likely to cause permanent damage. Like Marco and Vista attacking Akainu with Haki (with a landing blow SFX) yet his body not being directly damaged.

Oden's Ryuou (which is just haki in Wano terms) left a permanent scar on Kaido because it far surpasses the scabbards.

This is true, it's even revealed that the reason for Kaidou's high durability is his tough body in conjunction with Haki seemingly always being active.

So characters being unable to negate his regeneration could be do to their lack of buso potency; while the scabbards combining their attacks or high potency users like Enma Zoro/Oden allowed them to bypass it.

 

[MonkeyOfLife]

Hmmm, I see... I'm starting to understand what you mean, I agree (got confused a lil)

 

[Mazdoesstuff]

Neutral leaning to Disagree

 

[LordGinSama]

I honestly agree with this, higher levels of Haki should be granted Limited Regeneration Nullification when it comes to those who have natural regeneration based on the fact that whenever those with high levels of Busoshoku Haki are seen creating permanent scars on opponents like Kaidou (Zoro and Oden both come to mind who are very advanced when it comes to Busoshoku.) which don't heal back properly.


This would be a similar case go NNT's HellBlaze which there is currently a CRT for where it's being changed to Limited rather than the full ability. Regeneration is still possible since Kaidou has scars which is only possible via regeneration but the damage they cause is indeed permanent as they leave behind scars that don't heal properly.



So I'd word it like this Regeneration Negation (Lowers levels of Busoshoku Haki can negate the non Natural Regeneration such as Logia regeneration and Marco's Phoenix healing capabilities. Higher levels of Busoshoku Haki can leave behind permanent scars that are incapable of healing properly on those with natural regeneration such as Zoan's.) Obviously this is a rough draft, someone can alter it how they see fit.

 

[Mazdoesstuff]

Should be noted upon the level of natural regen they can negate tho

 

[LordGinSama]

Should be noted upon the level of natural regen they can negate tho

Whatever Kaidou’s is, last I checked his regeneration (Mid.) CRT was still in progress so that should be concluded first.

 

[Damage3245]

I'm not so sure that leaving a scar is actually Regeneration Negation here. It could be that the damage was just so great that Kaidou would naturally form a scar from it.

 

[Mazdoesstuff]

Whatever Kaidou’s is, last I checked his regeneration (Mid.) CRT was still in progress so that should be concluded first.

Didn’t the Mid regen thread not come to a conclusion? There was still a number of counter arguments that weren’t addressed: atm Kaido is only Mid-Low

 

[Eminiteable]

So I'd word it like this Regeneration Negation (Lowers levels of Busoshoku Haki can negate the non Natural Regeneration such as Logia regeneration and Marco's Phoenix healing capabilities. Higher levels of Busoshoku Haki can leave behind permanent scars that are incapable of healing properly on those with natural regeneration such as Zoan's.) Obviously this is a rough draft, someone can alter it how they see fit.

I believe the purpose of the CRT is to establish that Marco's zoan regeneration is in fact natural due to zoan's lineage factor.

Although I kind of disagree with the wording of lower/higher levels being mentioned on the haki page; When it comes to Kaidou specifically I believe that he's able to prevent most from negating his regeneration due to him effectively always having buso amping his durability and due to his high buso potency it negates those with weaker potency (the individual scabbards etc).

Four scabbards performing the Tougen Totsuka were able to temporarily leave lasting damage on kaidou; although not enough to fully re-open his scar. In the case of Zoro using Enma it draws out more of his buso thus raising his potency, when it drew out less than it's max potency it wasn't able to leave a scar despite cutting him deeply through the scales however when unleashing whatever he had left in 1010 he did leave a scar with Asura. Oden however cut Kaidou deeply enough to the point where Kaidou still needed bandages over the wound well over a week later. With these three cases I believe this is due to them gaining greater potency than Kaidou had which allowed them to bypass his Haki and leave lasting wounds.

Just my thoughts but I don't think a specific level of potency is required to negate regeneration, rather a specific level is required to bypass Kaidou's own buso.

 

[Eminiteable]

I'm not so sure that leaving a scar is actually Regeneration Negation here. It could be that the damage was just so great that Kaidou would naturally form a scar from it.

Other characters wounded him deeper than the scar, that's why he has Mid-Low which covers "Large scars"

 

[Damage3245]

Marco's Devil Fruit having altered his DNA isn't proof that his flame-based healing is completely natural. Since Marco did in fact heal his injury over time (he still doesn't have the bruise Post-Timeskip) that means this body's natural healing AKA his regeneration did in fact take care of it. Garp's Haki did not negate that.

 

[MonkeyOfLife]

Marco's Devil Fruit having altered his DNA isn't proof that his flame-based healing is completely natural. Since Marco did in fact heal his injury over time (he still doesn't have the bruise Post-Timeskip) that means this body's natural healing AKA his regeneration did in fact take care of it. Garp's Haki did not negate that.

Well Marco does have armament haki... Attacks from other haki users take longer to regen from depending on how strong their haki is or how much they used haki

For example here he completely instantly regenerated

but here it took time to regen

Haki users has shown that Marco can't instantly regen from haki attacks and that it depends on how strong someone's Haki is for how long he won't be able to regen, that's how I see it

 

[SnookB]

I'm not so sure that leaving a scar is actually Regeneration Negation here. It could be that the damage was just so great that Kaidou would naturally form a scar from it.

Not leaving a scar is because his body regenerated too quickly and too flawlessly.
If a scar is left, then his regen was somehow stumped. In Kaido's case, the wound from Oden stays open, same as the wound from Zoro. Similiarly to Garp's punch on Marco leaving bruises instead of instant flames taking over to heal immidiately.
That argument implies the scabbards ALL should have left scars on Kaido, especially when the fourway totsuka left a far bigger wound than Zoro's slash, yet he only noted Zoro's attack to leave a scar.

Scars are the body healing itself at a regular pace, they're not the byproduct of regeneration everytime.

 

[SnookB]

Should be noted upon the level of natural regen they can negate tho

Yes. Obviously it wouldn't be unlimited regen negging, only limited to what it's shown to negate.

 

[Damage3245]

I haven't seen anything indicating that Kaidou's regeneration is "flawless". A scar being left behind doesn't mean his regeneration was negated. If you get a minor injury, it will heal over and the scar will fade. The massive X-shaped wound that Oden dealt Kaidou is just too huge to fade away even over years.

 

[SnookB]

I haven't seen anything indicating that Kaidou's regeneration is "flawless". A scar being left behind doesn't mean his regeneration was negated. If you get a minor injury, it will heal over and the scar will fade. The massive X-shaped wound that Oden dealt Kaidou is just too huge to fade away even over years.

There's not a single attack before the fourway totsuka that stayed visible. Kaido's regen is greater than Queen's who healed 3 large deep cashes on his face in the span of panels without a scar to show for it.

You're entirely using the argument of "scars healing is regeneration" for the sake convenience. Scars existing are PROOF of regeneration failing. Regen negging means attacks don't instantly heal, not that they don't heal overtime naturally, without the interference of super fast regeneration.
The fact that Kaido said the scabbards Totsuka wasn't leaving a scar means ODEN'S wound leaving a scar is a different deal, even though both attacks are the same size. Oden's left a scar, the scabbards won't, despite both being comparatively large.
If a kenbunshoku blow stumps the insane recovery of a Zoan, then that's regeneration negating. The argument was never whether it could or couldn't to begin with, everyone accepted that it does. Now it's just more natural regen than it was previously.

 

[SnookB]

Marco's Devil Fruit having altered his DNA isn't proof that his flame-based healing is completely natural.

So basically
Marco's devil fruit altered his DNA to become a bird
But the flames are an external ability.
Even though the bird itself is literally made of regeneration flames.

This is like saying Jack is mammoth and the tusks don't come with the body. Or saying Sengoku's Buddha's golden body is not the body itself. Or saying Kaido's scales are a seperate ability from him being a dragon.
It's a mythical phoenix made of blue flames. We literally see through his body when he's pierced/blown apart and he's inorganic inside out. The flames are genetically coded in, not an external ability.

 

[Eminiteable]

So basically
Marco's devil fruit altered his DNA to become a bird
But the flames are an external ability.
Even though the bird itself is literally made of regeneration flames.

This is like saying Jack is mammoth and the tusks don't come with the body. Or saying Sengoku's Buddha's golden body is not the body itself. Or saying Kaido's scales are a seperate ability from him being a dragon.
It's a mythical phoenix made of blue flames. We literally see through his body when he's pierced/blown apart and he's inorganic inside out. The flames are genetically coded in, not an external ability.

The pheonix fruit isn't an organic being made of blue flames, it's directly stated that it's body is covered in them not that he's actually made of them.

 

[SnookB]

The pheonix fruit isn't an organic being made of blue flames, it's directly stated that it's body is covered in them not that he's actually made of them.

Ah. My bad then. Either way, the regeneration of it is still genetically implemented into Marco's DNA, so the point still stands there.

 

[DemonGodMitchAubin]

 

[SnookB]

 

[Nierre]

Following

 

[SnookB]

Bump n stuff!

 

[KingTempest]

Disagree

You're misinterpreting what "biological" regen means.
It means that their regen is in their DNA, not that the ability that aids their regen is in their DNA.

Marco makes flames that heal him. It's not like Marco's DNA has a crazy healing factor.

 

[LordGinSama]

What about the Zoan stuff?

 

[KingTempest]

What about the Zoan stuff?

I like it

Issue is that it needs to be specified to leave scars where others have scars healed. Seems very limited. Something akin to Meliodas' hellflame regen neg, leaving scars in certain places.

So maybe

Limited Regeneration Negation (Tier; Users of superior Busoshoku can leave scars where others failed to because of superior Busoshoku negating their negation).

 

[Damage3245]

I'm still fairly positive that this is just due to Kaido's wound from Oden being much bigger than any other injury he's taken at that point.

 

[KingTempest]

I'm still fairly positive that this is just due to Kaido's wound from Oden being much bigger than any other injury he's taken at that point.

Nah, cause he had the same slash reopened and it was closed in like 5 minutes.

Zoro left his own wound as well, never got healed.

Denjiro stabbed deep into his body, healed. Kiku impaled his hand, healed.

It's just that these guys noted for their armament managed to leave wounds that didn't heal.

 

[Damage3245]

@KingTempest; their slash on his scar was still much smaller than the initial wound that Oden dealt to him.

 

[KingTempest]

@KingTempest; their slash on his scar was still much smaller than the initial wound that Oden dealt to him.

Bigger than Zoro's, and it opened up a large part of it

 

[SnookB]

I'm still fairly positive that this is just due to Kaido's wound from Oden being much bigger than any other injury he's taken at that point.

The slash from 4 scabbards was seemingly almost just as big and he literally said it won't leave a scar. It has nothing to do with size, otherwise Zoro's wouldn't leave a scar either.
Either higher tier Busoshoku has limited regen neg, or Haoshoku infusion does. Though considering Oden has no confirmed CoC Infusion I'd say the former

 

[Damage3245]

@SnookB; it wasn't as big.

Kaidou even tells them that their hit was too shallow on him compared to Oden's attack.

 

[KingTempest]

@SnookB; it wasn't as big.

It was almost as big, and again, it was bigger than Zoro's

Kaidou even tells them that their hit was too shallow on him compared to Oden's attack.

The definition of shallow to Kaidou is horrifyingly bad

Luffy couldn't penetrate skin and the scabbards could impale him, and he called their attacks shallow
Luffy was ignoring his durability and he still said it was shallow

So that isn't an argument