Record of Ragnarok: Whatever the hell happened to this verse

[Matthew_Schroeder]

Yeah it should be 5-B only.

 

[TotalMasterInfinity]

As I said before, Shiva Tandava Karma Forma should be planet level, as for the universe level statements, I am on the side of those who consider it an exaggeration and here are my reasons, first let's analyze what happened with Zeus before and after his statement
-Zeus notices that there is something strange in the fight between Thor and Lu Bu then Hermes wonders if he is interested in that, what Zeus says that something impossible happened and Hermes asks if he wants to know how a human can fight against a god
-then we have the explanation that human weapons cannot do anything against divine weapons and Zeus realizes that the Valkyries did something
-then we have the first presentation of the Volund and Hermes notices what is happening and explains about the Valkyries, their duty, the Volund and the rumor of their true intentions
- finally we have Zeus realizing that the ragnarok is about a rebellion and says "the greatest thrill I've had ever since the birth of the universe"
-then we have the awakening of Mjolnir and the revelation of who will be the gods and humans who will participate in ragnarok and that what Zeus says when he finds out who the participants will be, Said this:
"would you look at that? it seems i'll be able to enjoy this even more than i'd first thought."
What does this final line mean, that Zeus had no idea that he would participate in Ragnarok, before he knew that it would be a participant, Zeus considered Ragnarok (a form of rebellion of the Valkyries against the gods) as more exciting than the birth of the universe , but after learning that he would be a participant, he affirmed that now he was going to have more fun than he thought in the first place, that is to say that the very act of seeing Ragnarok for Zeus was already more exciting than the big bang but knowing that He would no longer be a spectator but a direct participant he was even more excited.
If Zeus considered that just looking at Ragnarok would already give him a greater emotion than he had with the big bang because everyone still thinks that Zeus faced the big bang in the face.
when does it make more sense than if just looking at Ragnarok was already giving him a bigger thrill than the big bang, so the thrill he felt for the Big Bang must also be because he saw it, not because he faced it or something.

 

[Creaturemaster971]

I disagree with 3-A for Zeus.

7-B should be fine, or 5-B if it's a valid feat for Shiva (though I am still sliightly iffy).

I'm of the opinion that all the gods and humans with volund should currently scale to the same tier, for various reasons, until such a time as we have a better option provided.

Edit: Might as well provide my reasoning anyway.

Thor should scale due to having the strongest Divine Weapon. This would imply Mjolnir to be doing at least as much damage as the likes of Heracles's club and Poseidon's trident. This would scale to him as well due to being powerful enough that Mjolnir couldn't handle the force of his blows before awakening.

Lu Bu scales via clashing with Thor of course.

Zeus obviously overpowered Shiva so he scales up. Adam for clashing with Zeus.

Poseidon is directly described as at the very least near equivalent to Zeus.

Sasaki via damaging Poseidon and being able to withstand a glancing blow from him.

Heracles for possessing Zeus's strength.

Jack for damaging Heracles and for taking some blows from him (though I can't remember how direct those blows were)

 

[AnonymousBlank]

Don’t care too much on the Big Bang thrill stuff but wanna point out that Zeus did know he was going to be in Ragnarok. It’s how the gods picked their team with everyone agreeing that Zeus would go last. How else would you explain Shiva saying the gods agreed for Zeus to go last before the second match even started when the list only came through near the end of the first match and we saw exactly where Zeus was for the entire first match?

 

[Antvasima]

Creaturemaster971 makes sense to me.

 

[InfiniteDay]

Thor also killing the World Serpent shouldn't be a anti feat. Wasn't it calced at 5-A or 5-B?

 

[Regidian]

Thor also killing the World Serpent shouldn't be a anti feat. Wasn't it calced at 5-A or 5-B?

It was tell somewhere the size of the World serpent?

 

[InfiniteDay]

It was tell somewhere the size of the World serpent?

It was stated to wrap around the earth, and Thor killed it.

 

[Axxtentacle]

Jack tanked a hit from Cerberus Heracles pretty much directly in his face (Cerberus gives him a stat boost in exchange for his life) and didn't have any visual damage besides maybe spitting out some blood and getting flung. He rolls, gets back up, and smiles. Also, the statement from Ares about Heracles having Zeus' strength was before he even went through his training and got his abilities.

So, I propose a rating of "at least 5-B, varies with Labours, higher with Herculean Exodus 12th Labour: Cerberus, Hound Of Hades". If someone can find a way to shorten that, it'd work too.

I have scans to prove this if they're required.

I'm looking through the manga, and right after that happens, he grapples onto a building and takes another direct hit from Heracles. He blocks this one, and doesn't even react as if it hurt him. He's more worried about the spike he's about to fall onto.

 

[Axxtentacle]

Also, Heracles' body seems to change some, his hands and feet having black claws when he uses Cerberus. Could this give him Natural Weaponry and maybe Transformation/Body Control with Cerberus?

 

[Creaturemaster971]

"at least 5-B, varies with Labours, higher with Cerberus" would probably work as a shorter title.

Herc doesn't really use his claws and they're not that impressive so I wouldn't say Natural Weaponry, and there's no real Body Control there.

Definitely Transformation, though.

 

[Axxtentacle]

Yeah, I thought of that, It just felt too unspecific. It could definitely work though, I probably just overthought it.

 

[Creaturemaster971]

Usually my thought process is that if the full name is listed in Notable Attacks or whatever, I'll use a shorthand in the tiering section. Could use the full for AP though.

So it would be like

"Tier: 5-B, higher with Cerberus"

"Attack Potency: Planet level, higher with 12th Labour: Cerberus, Hound Of Hades"

 

[Creaturemaster971]

Relevant question: Anyone have the official english translation and/or raws of the first chapter of the manga?

I found the page where the statement that Lu Bu is the strongest of all humans comes from, so I'd like to cross-reference it with the official versions.

 

[AnonymousBlank]

The Heimdall and Brunhild statements? Or the spinoff ones?

I’ve never been able to find Japanese raws for the first fight and the only official translations I am aware of are in Spanish and I think French.

 

[ItalianGuy1234]

So we have agreed to tier 5-B ? nice

 

[Antvasima]

It seems so, but we should also remove 3-A.

 

[Creaturemaster971]

Ah shit, it is a Heimdall statement. Never mind, then.

But for what it's worth, said stament is "The strongest human since the dawn of history"

(I still think it's a reasonable assumption to consider that Lu Bu has the highest base strength of the humans, surpassed only by Raiden with his limiters removed, but it's mostly unfounded headcanon on my part)

 

[Axxtentacle]

Yeah, I don't think any of them should get scaling like that. Heimdall called Lu Bu, Adam, AND Raiden the "strongest human" or some variation of the statement.

Also, "The strongest human since the dawn of history" could be interpreted as, like, recorded history, and we don't have a recorded history for Adam and Eve's time period, so he could very well not be included in that statement.

 

[Creaturemaster971]

Yeah that was my thought process, like strongest human since Adam

 

[TOAAPRESENCE1]

Adam >>>>>>> humans so far

 

[AnonymousBlank]

The recorded history point doesn’t make much sense when it is coming from a god that preceded human history as a whole, let alone recorded history. To argue recorded history also doesn’t really work since the gods have recorded history since before humans.

As for people being called the strongest, Raiden is specifically called the strongest Rikishi or they say he has the strongest muscles. The former is true since none of the others are Rikishi while the latter can only apply to Volund Raiden since that is the only time he can actually use his muscles to their full extent.

Adam on the other hand only gets called the summit of humanity which can be true since Lu Bu was beyond dead at that point. The other point in favor of Adam being > the other humans is that Brun calls Adam her trump card but at the same time still calls Lu Bu the strongest human.

Lu Bu being the strongest human bar maybe unsealed Raiden makes sense to me. I would put Raiden as the strongest except he is equal to TK Shiva and base Shiva is able to somewhat block his absolute max (Yatagarasu). Problem is that Adam = Adamas >>> Buff > Base > Shiva << Yatagarasu =< TK so Adam kinda ***** him being the strongest in AP.

 

[TOAAPRESENCE1]

U saying the problem is that adam can defeat shiva?

 

[AnonymousBlank]

No. The problem with Raiden being the strongest is that someone far weaker than Adam (Shiva) is able to keep up with and harm him (Raiden). This means Adam > Raiden is a fact and therefore Raiden’s strongest muscles statement doesn’t hold up. This was in response to Axxtentacle saying that Heimdall gives statements for Adam and Raiden being the strongest so we can’t put any stock into Lu Bu being called the strongest.

I also just realised that Raiden’s strongest muscle statements also come after Adam and Lu Bu are dead (brain shut down earlier lol) so they are actually perfectly valid, they just can’t be applied to the first two since they are dead at this point.

 

[Creaturemaster971]

Adam is kind of a special case, however, because raw strength isn't his schtick and he's somewhat set apart from humanity to begin with. For all we know he is weaker in base but copied Zeus's power to damage him.

 

[Creaturemaster971]

Also let's not forget Shiva needed a powerup to take on limiter removed Raiden

 

[TOAAPRESENCE1]

Adam is kind of a special case, however, because raw strength isn't his schtick and he's somewhat set apart from humanity to begin with. For all we know he is weaker in base but copied Zeus's power to damage him.

Adam can react and copy yes

even then when he lost his eyes he could still tank and attack adamas form

 

[TOAAPRESENCE1]

But yea

adam is the strongest and jack is the weakest

now the rest idk where exactly put them (sasaki, raiden, lu bu)

 

[AnonymousBlank]

Adam is relative to Adamas anyway so I wouldn’t say his stats change with copying techs, Adam was just that much of a chad already.

Base Shiva was harming unsealed Raiden though. He doesn’t scale to him fully but unsealed Raiden doesn’t exactly scale to Yatagarasu since one use almost has him crippled.

 

[Axxtentacle]

Jack still isn't physically terrible, he tanks hits and trades blows with Heracles after Heracles goes into Cerberus.

Also, Shiva didn't "partially block" Yatagarasu, his arms got immediately bent and broke at first contact, and he got sent flying.

Also, Yatagarasu is literally ALL of his strength in 1 strike, so all that means is that it's just his max AP. The rest of his stats wouldn't scale unless he specifically uses his muscles for that.

 

[TOAAPRESENCE1]

Jack still isn't physically terrible, he tanks hits and trades blows with Heracles after Heracles goes into Cerberus.

i mean yea, but he is not exactly like the others who can literally blow u up like a balloon if they touch u hard enough

 

[Axxtentacle]

Also, I would personally put Adam as > Adamas tbh. Adamas form, even with direct hits, never seemed to cause him to spit blood once he started tanking hits or anything, while Adam did that same thing. Adam did knock Zeus out of his Adamas form with his final hit, and Zeus himself admitted he would've beat him if it was all up to endurance.

 

[Axxtentacle]

i mean yea, but he is not exactly like the others who can literally blow u up like a balloon if they touch u hard enough

Fair, but Heracles is supposed to be relative to Zeus even pre-Cerberus, as Ares compares them. So I'd personally argue that he can do that, just doesn't ever get the chance to or has a reason to. It's not his fighting style, anyway.

 

[Creaturemaster971]

Opinion Time:

In terms of raw strength:

Fully-pushed Adam > Adamas Zeus > Cerberus Heracles > Buff Zeus >/= Poseidon = Heracles > Final Powerup Shiva = Awakened Thor > Uninhibited Raiden > Shiva = Base Thor = Lu Bu > Base Raiden > Jack > Kojiro

 

[AnonymousBlank]

I honestly dunno how much stock you can put into that “strength of Zeus” line. If we accept it as fact, then flashback Herc = buff Zeus since Ares has seen that form before, as evidenced by him knowing his techniques. Seeing as the blood also buffed his speed (Ares casually negged him before he drank the blood), it should logically buff all of his stats to Zeus’ level. Zeus went through an entire pantheon of gods for the Titanomachy and never got tagged by anyone until Kronos used the time punch. This is apparently the level Herc is meant to be yet he ends up being relative to but above Ares in physicals after killing nameless fodder which he can one shot and his attacks being caught by base Zeus. Unless base > buff, the statement doesn’t work since Ares is out here able to harm Herc.

Opinions on raw strength? Oh dear, time to go against the grain and get jumped. Before I put Thor and Lu Bu at the top, are we talking AP or LS when you say strength? Or is it some arbitrary mix of the two? Cuz on the one hand, Kojiro could go really high, on the other he goes really friggin low.

 

[Axxtentacle]

The Zeus thing could likely just be speed, it doesn't have to buff his speed to Zeus' level, just give an arbitrary boost. The fact that Ares said his raw, physical strength is comparable should prove this more than not. Also, Ares does state that an average god could keep up with the Divine Axe that Zeus used, though this wasn't his full physical ability since he wasn't going all out yet, so him being comparable to a casual buff Zeus when he's not weakened makes sense.

Also, we don't know how Ares would've performed in the Titonomachy since there isn't statements about it, so it's not really out of the question either.

Also, Zeus caught Ares and Heracles' fists after they had fought themselves to near exhaustion, so I don't think that's exactly a fair comparison to make.

Raw strength? I have like... no idea where to go with the specifics of that. Lu Bu seems to have the best raw feat so far, not including statements.

 

[TOAAPRESENCE1]

We talking about raw strength between lu bu and raiden?

 

[AnonymousBlank]

Pretty sure Ares said that average gods can only see the shadow of Divine Axe while he can see it clearly.

My issue with the statement is that it puts the different forms as extremely close to each other tbh. So close that the difference between them should be negligible but it somehow isn’t. Buff and base can’t have much of a difference since flashback Herc is scaling to the level of buff (which should logically be above base since he uses it to fight), base can **** down Shiva > Hermes > Ares yet Ares was able to somewhat fight that Herc.

If it’s purely on panel feats with no scaling
0. Aphrodite’s attendants
1-2. Lu Bu has Sky Eater >= Shiva/Rudra disperse clouds and yeet giants
3. Thor throws around Mjolnir and oneshots large building sized giants
4-5. Giants tear through a huge gate and destroy buildings, Herc slams through buildings
6. Zeus squishes the dragon, destroys all furniture he gets his hands on and smashes his booth (might put him in the same tier as Gianrs and Herc)
7. Raiden lifts big boulders no diff iirc
8-9. Jack throws a large clock face, Adamas (the brother) tosses Poseidon’s table
10. Thrud casually walks through a foot of solid wood
11. The rest

 

[Matthew_Schroeder]

5-B Jack is such a meme I can't believe people are actually arguing for it, his biggest attack on Heracles was dropping a building on him.

 

[InfiniteDay]

5-B Jack is such a meme I can't believe people are actually arguing for it, his biggest attack on Heracles was dropping a building on him.

This is downplay. He dropped multiple volound buildings on Herc, which can damage Herc. This gives him 5-B, and he was able to survive attacks and hurt Herc, again a 5-B feat.