Re Zero Skill Evaluation Part 2

[Fezzih_007]

It would've been really helpful if you decided to state any issues you had with it before it was agreed on.

I can't do much If i forgot.

Anyway, i change my mind, i don't have a problem with that anymore.

 

[VortechsTG]

Roswaal L is clearly significantly more skilled than Garfiel at the start of the Olbart fight. But he's probably not as skilled as Julia was.

 

[Celestial_Pegasus]

He absolutely is an expert physical combatant long before Arc 7 statements come up, throughout his fight with Ram and Puck, and his fight with Marcos, he displays overwhelming martial skill.

If it's troublesome then yeah he can be left atm.

Completely slipped my mind about that Ram fight, was thinking too much in terms of the magical skill he showed off there.

 

[Lonkitt]

I should clarify something since apparently I wasn’t clear enough and thought you were referring to another feat

I do not agree with Ram’s feat of dodging attacks from a supersonic character as precog or information analysis

 

[Zabazab]

I don't think it is being, I believe it's being considered IA.

 

[Lonkitt]

I don't think it is being, I believe it's being considered IA.

It has no reason to be

 

[Zabazab]

Then it can just be considered general skill rather than a specific ability, I'm not too bothered about the details.

 

[Lonkitt]

It would be much more reliable if it was considered a general skill feat. It is in no way hinting itself at being precog or information analysis

 

[Chariot190]

It's an IA feat imo (Intuition implies that she's doing it without much conscious thought or thinking about what to do, just following her instinct).
But it's also so vague that we have no idea how she actually went about it, when she did it (before he attacked? after? etc), or anything of that sort.
It's basically just the absolute bare minimum IA, and def shouldn't be treated like she's so skilled she can somehow dodge attacks apparently 50x above her from CQC distance (and if we did treat it like that, hate to break it to you, but she would unironically not be 50x slower otherwise she would have failed to physically move her body the required distance to make the attack miss, and thus, the feat basically invalidates itself).

Re:Zero has an anime? Have they reached this part yet? Even if noncanon or not used primarily for the profile, visual evidence of how dudes who probably know more about what's going on than us interpret it could be useful.

 

[Zabazab]

It's not included in the anime, there she just stops fighting when her mana runs dry, unlike the Novel where she attempts to keep going, breaks her knee against Garf, and then is forced to dodge Garf's attacks to retreat.

She is explicitly human level compared to the explicitly supersonic Garfiel. This feat continuing to be controversial after being re-evaluated multiple times is very bothersome.

Dodging "countless" attacks from a supersonic character isn't very vague imo. She avoided several of Garfiel's blows in cqc while retreating. She did this via her godlike talent and skill because superhuman enhancement was not available to her, as she had no Mana.

 

[Celestial_Pegasus]

Omg we are still talking about Ram, I am so over this topic, it's why I asked multiple times if the feat was fine...

The feat was not shown in the anime btw.

I completely wash my hands of this topic, will let you guys keep arguing it.

 

[Zabazab]

Wishing it was Ram that got Gluttonied instead of Rem rn.

 

[Fezzih_007]

We can always say that Garfiel in Tiger form is not supersonic and move on.

 

[Chariot190]

Dodging "countless" attacks from a supersonic character isn't very vague imo. She avoided several of Garfiel's blows in cqc while retreating. She did this via her godlike talent and skill because superhuman enhancement was not available to her, as she had no Mana.

I could whip out a machinegun and you could "dodge" it, how you did do it though? Without details we can't say, did you avoid the path and trajectory? Did you figure out where I was aiming and dodge before I pulled the trigger so you were out of the way before it fired? Did you just straight up dodge it after it happened (in which you'd literally be supersonic too, aka the whole context of the feat is void, the author made a fucky and didn't think about the implications of what they wrote), how did the attacks even happen? What was the distance she started dodging compared to when they came out?

There is SO many variables to this, a good handful wouldn't implicate what's being suggested at all here mind you, that legitimately taking this feat and treating it like she's uber skilled so she just dodges 50x attacks, which fair, she is skilled and is doing it with skill, but the fact we don't know the details of the dodging makes that aspect of it so utterly vague the fact it's even been considered is tad a much imo.

 

[VortechsTG]

I could whip out a machinegun and you could "dodge" it, how you did do it though? Without details we can't say, did you avoid the path and trajectory? Did you figure out where I was aiming and dodge before I pulled the trigger so you were out of the way before it fired? Did you just straight up dodge it after it happened (in which you'd literally be supersonic too, aka the whole context of the feat is void, the author made a fucky and didn't think about the implications of what they wrote), how did the attacks even happen? What was the distance she started dodging compared to when they came out?

We literally know she isn't supersonic and dodging faster attacks based on reading where an opponent intends to attack is a pretty standard feat in ReZero. It's a pretty safe assumption that's what she's doing.

 

[Zabazab]

We can always say that Garfiel in Tiger form is not supersonic and move on.

There's no evidence he's slower, he's just predictable and struggles to switch between offense and defense. Arc 7 even implies his speed is no different.

There is SO many variables to this, a good handful wouldn't implicate what's being suggested at all here mind you, that legitimately taking this feat and treating it like she's uber skilled so she just dodges 50x attacks, which fair, she is skilled and is doing it with skill, but the fact we don't know the details of the dodging makes that aspect of it so utterly vague the fact it's even been considered is tad a much imo.

She avoided the attacks by following her intuition. Tiger Garf is animalistic and only uses simple manouvers due to this, and so the combat prodigy Ram can easily see through and avoid his attacks.

We're currently taking it as higher reaction speed that varies depending on the skill of the opponent relative to their own.

 

[VortechsTG]

There's no evidence he's slower, he's just predictable and struggles to switch between offense and defense. Arc 7 even implies his speed is no different.

He never uses his full tiger form after arc 4.

 

[Chariot190]

She is explicitly human level compared to the explicitly supersonic Garfiel. This feat continuing to be controversial after being re-evaluated multiple times is very bothersome.

Well what did you expect? You're arguing that a human character dodged a supersonic one from CQC.
This isn't possible, unless the former just misses or is not even trying.

To paint a picture, imagine Character A (Mach 1) threw punch aimed at Character B's head, this punch is coming from 70cm away in a straight line, and character B is so skilled they dodged it the exact moment it came out and moved their head the exact width of that dude's fist to dodge the blow and Character A made zero attempts to change trajectory to compensate.
Even just that would have Character B a fraction of the speed of that punch as they moved their head say, 10cm in the time it took the punch to cover 70cm.

If Ram really DID dodge afterward, from up close, and even if cat man didn't make any attempt to compensate for her movement, she would mathematically have to be moving her body at a notable fraction of mach speed otherwise she could not physically traverse the distance needed to get out of the way.

We literally know she isn't supersonic and dodging faster attacks based on reading where an opponent intends to attack is a pretty standard feat in ReZero. It's a pretty safe assumption that's what she's doing.

See, that right there, that's possible, but it'd also fall under aim-dodging, which is a skill feat, and also an A-P feat yes, but it sure as hell ain't her "dodging" attacks 50x her speed after they came out, but rather predicting what the very animalistic dude is going to do and making sure she's out of the way.

She avoided the attacks by following her intuition. Tiger Garf is animalistic and only uses simple manouvers due to this, and so the combat prodigy Ram can easily see through and avoid his attacks.

Case and point, if that's the case, that's just basic A-P and trajectory predicting.

We're currently taking it as higher reaction speed that varies depending on the skill of the opponent relative to their own.

That's, kinda bullshit thinking on it? If she's just a standard human girl in stats, why would she suddenly be able to hit 50x her own perception?
Actually, what the **** are ya lads doing, that's bordering on just making shit up to handwave the fact the feat mathematically is impossible if she was dodging attacks aimed at her 50x her speed from up close and not far away. Is this even a thing? Do characters in verse have self-perception manip? Ram ever mentioned to have this at any point either?
You're somehow arguing she was a completely normal human in speed but secretly she had a 50x reaction buff due to skill? Hate to break it to you but if that's the case she wasn't a normal human in speed at the time by proxy.

 

[Fezzih_007]

There's no evidence he's slower,

There is actually, it happen in a Blink and miss scene, but in Arc 4 Ram that drop down to average human in speed, as able to dodge his attacks, so that means his speed drop when he transform.

he's just predictable and struggles to switch between offense and defense.

True

Arc 7 even implies his speed is no different.

Arc 7 Garfiel ≠ Arc 4 Garfiel, that just means his speed don't dicrease anymore on Arc 7, but in Arc 4 he have this weakness.

That's the only explanation to Ram dodging Garfiel.

 

[Zabazab]

He never uses his full tiger form after arc 4.

Did he not transform fully after he got his head split by Kafma, and then fight in Tiger form? He even mentions after that controlling his Tiger form has gotten a bit easier.

Is this even a thing? Do characters in verse have self-perception manip? Ram ever mentioned to have this at any point either?
You're somehow arguing she was a completely normal human in speed but secretly she had a 50x reaction buff due to skill? Hate to break it to you but if that's the case she wasn't a normal human in speed at the time by proxy.

It is a thing. People below Ram- like Garfiel himself- achieve this. Ram's is simply far superior, and allowed her to react to an attack several tens of times faster than herself.

There is actually, it happen in a Blink and miss scene, but in Arc 4 Ram that drop down to average human in speed, as able to dodge his attacks, so that means his speed drop when he transform.

If Tiger Garf was human level or close to it then Subaru would have literally zero issue with dealing with him. There is no reason to believe Garf is slower outside of like "He kinda looks like it in some scenes of the anime".

Arc 7 Garfiel ≠ Arc 4 Garfiel, that just means his speed don't dicrease anymore on Arc 7, but in Arc 4 he have this weakness.

That's the only explanation to Ram dodging Garfiel.

If there was a drop in speed from Garf to Tiger Garf, then it would be mentioned explicitly and would not be handwaved away in Arc 7, there's no reason for it.

There is already an explanation in the text: Ram's intuition and talent. And it has already been rechecked and accepted twice in this thread.

 

[VortechsTG]

Did he not transform fully after he got his head split by Kafma, and then fight in Tiger form? He even mentions after that controlling his Tiger form has gotten a bit easier.

That's his half tiger form

 

[Chariot190]

It is a thing. People below Ram- like Garfiel himself- achieve this. Ram's is simply far superior,

Not what I asked, I asked if it was ever stated she could do that. And if she could do that, why the hell is this being treated as a skill feat? Suddenly roiding out your perception aint skill, it's a ******* perception manip brother.

and allowed her to react to an attack several tens of times faster than herself.

Not how it works, I'm arguing that very point, why would that work as support when that's the thing I'm saying doesn't check ut? Saying "it's true because she did this", when I'm arguing that very thing probably doesn't entail what you're suggesting, that isn't a good argument, it's a self-fulfilling one. I need actual evidence beyond that.

And honestly? If what you're saying, for argument's sake, is true, then the argument itself is false because she wouldn't be a normal human girl, she'd be a normal human girl who just buffed herself 50x, straight up invalidating even the Analytical aspect of this feat let alone the the "dodges faster things" part of it.

 

[Fezzih_007]

If Tiger Garf was human level or close to it then Subaru would have literally zero issue with dealing with him.

Not really, he would still have problems due to him not being a fighter, not have any of Ram talent, and Garfiel strenght. I also never said he was human level or close It, Just that his speed drop. Now to what value, It atleast below supersonic.

There is no reason to believe Garf is slower outside of like "He kinda looks like it in some scenes of the anime".

We can always use best boy Otto, because he is not supersonic and he as able to react to Garfiel attacks just fine, for what i remember.

If there was a drop in speed from Garf to Tiger Garf, then it would be mentioned explicitly and would not be handwaved away in Arc 7, there's no reason for it.

It could be just implied in subtext.

There is already an explanation in the text: Ram's intuition and talent. And it has already been rechecked and accepted twice in this thread.

We discussing again now to see If It makes sense.
That happens all the time.

Anyway, is either Garfiel became slower, or Ram don't drop to average human, and is actually faster than that, and we interpret the texto wrong.

 

[Zabazab]

Not what I asked, I asked if it was ever stated she could do that. And if she could do that, why the hell is this being treated as a skill feat? Suddenly roiding out your perception aint skill, it's a ******* perception manip brother.

Please read the Flow Method blog, it's the explanation for the verse's skill scaling. It should clear up any confusion around that.

Not how it works, I'm arguing that very point, why would that work as support when that's the thing I'm saying doesn't check ut? Saying "it's true because she did this", when I'm arguing that very thing probably doesn't entail what you're suggesting, that isn't a good argument, it's a self-fulfilling one. I need actual evidence beyond that.

Her combat speed was nerfed to human level, and her insane skill allowed her to react to attacks 65 to 130 times faster than usual combat speed. That's the feat, and I believe is valid.

We can always use best boy Otto, because he is not supersonic and he as able to react to Garfiel attacks just fine, for what i remember.

He pushes Subaru out of the way and sacrafices himself to Garf's claw swipe, and Otto actually should have supersonic reactions thanks to Manadrenaline (unconscious Flow Method) due to being superior to Subaru.

It could be just implied in subtext.

Then prove it.

Anyway, is either Garfiel became slower, or Ram don't drop to average human, and is actually faster than that, and we interpret the texto wrong.

Ram's skill lets her react to attacks far far higher than her own combat speed. That's what happened.

 

[Fezzih_007]

He pushes Subaru out of the way and sacrafices himself to Garf's claw swipe,

Yeah, duh.

Otto actually should have supersonic reactions thanks to Manadrenaline (unconscious Flow Method) due to being superior to Subaru.

You can make a CRT then.

Ram's skill lets her react to attacks far far higher than her own combat speed. That's what happened.

...I know, i just saying that the speed diference is not that high, i din't say that she din't react.

 

[Chariot190]

Please read the Flow Method blog, it's the explanation for the verse's skill scaling. It should clear up any confusion around that.

Now what? Nothing at all said she has that, and if she did, this wouldn't even be a skill feat.

Her combat speed was nerfed to human level, and her insane skill allowed her to react to attacks 65 to 130 times faster than usual combat speed. That's the feat, and I believe is valid.

This unironically sounds like handwaving the issue and making an excuse for it. If her combat speed was nerfed, along with EVERYTHING else as I'm led to believe, why is her combat speed, because that's what dodging numerous attacks in a row is - its combat speed - aka the thing you just said got nerfed, getting a 50x+ buff?
That's rhetorical, it isn't. And if it is, then it isn't a skill feat, it's perception manip, but that's the thing, the author noted it was due to her talent and intuition (Meaning why are you even arguing it's a speed buff? That isn't what intuition is?) which means the only way this would be possible if she was aim-dodging or knew the trajectory of the animalistic dude with basic attacks and was dodging from where he'd strike which is honestly the only way this would check out based on it being her Int/Talent but also being possible.

But for argument's sake, assuming she could speed amp that much, the fact she can do that at all means she isn't a "normal human", and no, I don't think you comprehend what exactly this entails. You can't "dodge" an attack that much faster than you without various extra details or caveats like distance enabling it, the dude in question barely even hitting you to begin with, dodging ahead of time, aimdodging, or other such shit.
It is mathematically impossible. Even if bro threw a punch at a 2m distance and went in a straight line, and she ONLY moved her body half its width to avoid the attack by the absolute minimum needed to not get grazed, that would still make her physically subsonic, not human level.

There is no "she did it via skill", she either just instinctively dodged ahead of time, predicted it, or a bunch of other shit, enabling her to dodge it via skill, but arguing she reacted to the attacks after they came out and thus "she dodged attacks 50x her via skill within CQC/1m distance", nah chief and even if, by direct correlation she wasn't human speed.

 

[Arnoldstone18]

It's an IA feat imo (Intuition implies that she's doing it without much conscious thought or thinking about what to do, just following her instinct).
But it's also so vague that we have no idea how she actually went about it, when she did it (before he attacked? after? etc), or anything of that sort.
It's basically just the absolute bare minimum IA, and def shouldn't be treated like she's so skilled she can somehow dodge attacks apparently 50x above her from CQC distance (and if we did treat it like that, hate to break it to you, but she would unironically not be 50x slower otherwise she would have failed to physically move her body the required distance to make the attack miss, and thus, the feat basically invalidates itself).

Re:Zero has an anime? Have they reached this part yet? Even if noncanon or not used primarily for the profile, visual evidence of how dudes who probably know more about what's going on than us interpret it could be useful.

Y’know at some point I thought I was crazy. I literally couldn’t say anything anymore cuz of the staff agreements towards it being a general skill feat

 

[Arnoldstone18]

Omg we are still talking about Ram, I am so over this topic, it's why I asked multiple times if the feat was fine...

The feat was not shown in the anime btw.

I completely wash my hands of this topic, will let you guys keep arguing it.

Honestly I’m surprise we are having it this soon. I had expected that It was gonna happen sooner or later tbh. All it would take is Reid Astrea vs (insert popular anime here) and all hell would break loose. even more likely if said anime had a big speed multipliers

 

[Zabazab]

...I know, i just saying that the speed diference is not that high, i din't say that she din't react.

Subaru, who has reacted to and dodged supersonic attacks thanks to unconsciously boosting his reactions with mana, was unable to avoid the swipe from Garfiel- he could only percieve it.
If a character with supersonic reactions couldn't avoid it then Tiger Garfiel is at least supersonic.

Now what? Nothing at all said she has that, and if she did, this wouldn't even be a skill feat.

She does have perception manipulation as it scales between characters in the verse, it's on her page.

I really, honestly, genuinely do not care in regards to the exact method by which Ram avoided Garf's attacks while retreating.

Whether it is taken as a reaction speed feat, Analytical Precog, Instinctive Action, whatever- I do not care, all that matters to me is the fact that Ram can deal wih attacks that are 65x to 130x faster than her, because she explicitly does so. Staff have suggested it as a general skill feat, some have been against it being a form of precog, but I don't care what ability is assigned to the feat.

What I am also most against is scaling mana-less Ram to Garfiel's speed, she is both stated to be physically no different than a normal teenager without mana, and was defeated by Subaru, who has athletic combat speed, when she had some poor quality mana.

 

[VortechsTG]

You can make a CRT then.

I can add that to the low tier crt

 

[VortechsTG]

Subaru, who has reacted to and dodged supersonic attacks thanks to unconsciously boosting his reactions with mana, was unable to avoid the swipe from Garfiel- he could only percieve it.

Oh, I forgot about that. His full tiger form must also still be just as fast then.

 

[Zabazab]

Low tier CRT will change the world, I can feel tier 9 Otto in my soul

 

[Chariot190]

She does have perception manipulation as it scales between characters in the verse, it's on her page.

Don't care, we're talking about in a neutered state are we not?
And when I say perception manip, I meant like Link's or something, where it also bolsters his combat speed.

I really, honestly, genuinely do not care in regards to the exact method by which Ram avoided Garf's attacks while retreating.

And I do because how she did it decides what she gets.

Whether it is taken as a reaction speed feat, Analytical Precog, Instinctive Action, whatever- I do not care, all that matters to me is the fact that Ram can deal wih attacks that are 65x to 130x faster than her, because she explicitly does so.

That's the thing she DOESN'T EXPLICITLY do anything, we don't have a damn clue how she did it, just that it involved talent and intuition. Fact of the matter is, it could unironically be entirely aim-dodging, you don't know nor does it say, you're just assuming the best possible scenario in that he attacked and then she dodged, but it says no such thing.

Staff have suggested it as a general skill feat, some have been against it being a form of precog, but I don't care what ability is assigned to the feat.

I actually think it should be Instinctive Action (The wording of intuition implies that)} and probably an analytical prediction feat.

What I am also most against is scaling mana-less Ram to Garfiel's speed, she is both stated to be physically no different than a normal teenager without mana, and was defeated by Subaru, who has athletic combat speed, when she had some poor quality mana.

And yet what you're arguing goes directly against that, she had to of dodged prior (if the verse has a lot of predicting and stuff, this isn't even inconsistent), but if she dodged after the mach attacks came out, then by pure virtue she wouldn't have been normal human speed but rather comparable to an extent otherwise she could not physically move her body in time to dodge even if she could perceive it.

I literally couldn’t say anything anymore cuz of the staff agreements towards it being a general skill feat

It do be a skill feat, it's just being extrapolated quite a bit when the actual statement lacks any details.

 

[Zabazab]

Perception manip that affects combat speed would just be a straight speed amp I think.

Whether she dodged before or after doesn't really matter to me, just that her ability to at least avoid massively faster attacks via her skills isn't tossed away, I don't think her speed was amped, she was a normal human in the moment.

Since countering speed gaps with skill also occurs when Garf fights Kurgan later, it remains consistent, as it explains why Garf doesn't shit all over Kurgan who is significantly slower than him- his skill solves the speed gap and gives Garf an incredibly high difficulty fight where Garf will die instantly if he even stops to think before he acts.

There is a lot of predicting in the verse, especially from "feeling" what the opponent will do based on things "how the air hangs above them", and sensing hostility and intent, and then also more grounded predicting feats based on eye movement, breathing, expressions.

The top tiers intuition and predictions might as well be divination with how they predict things that are physically impossible to predict.

 

[Fezzih_007]

Perception manip that affects combat speed would just be a straight speed amp I think.

Yeah, but i don't think It work like that in Re:ZERO.

Since countering speed gaps with skill also cursos when Garf fights Kurgan later, it remains consistent,

Does Kurgan or Garfiel have a 90x speed Gap to be comparable in this situation?
And i don't think we are discussing about If countering speed gap with skill is consistent, we talking about If this Ram feat make any sense.

as it explains why Garf doesn't shit all over Kurgan who is significantly slower than him- his skill solves the speed gap and gives Garf an incredibly high difficulty fight where Garf will die instantly if he even stops to think before he acts.

Kurgan also have others advantages, but okay.

There is a lot of predicting in the verse, especially from "feeling" what the opponent will do based on things "how the air hangs above them", and sensing hostility and intent, and then also more grounded predicting feats based on eye movement, breathing, expressions.

Ok, and?

The top tiers intuition and predictions might as well be divination with how they predict things that are physically impossible to predict.

Cool? Are saying that Ram predict Garfiel attacks? Do you have proof?

 

[VortechsTG]

Does Kurgan or Garfiel have a 90x speed Gap to be comparable in this situation?

Yeah I agree it's not the best comparison. I see where he's coming from cause Garfiel would absolutely shit on him without the skill difference but it's only like a 5x difference max.

Are saying that Ram predict Garfiel attacks? Do you have proof?

We really shouldn't need proof. Literally any fight from Rem level and up involves predicting attacks. And anyway it says right in the quote she did it with intuition.

 

[Chariot190]

Perception manip that affects combat speed would just be a straight speed amp I think.

Which, newsflash, is what you're arguing for because she dodged .

Whether she dodged before or after doesn't really matter to me, just that her ability to at least avoid massively faster attacks via her skills isn't tossed away, I don't think her speed was amped, she was a normal human in the moment.

That's the thing though, speed isn't a factor here, it could be 1.1x faster, or like MFTL++++, if she's dodging beforehand than speed isn't a factor, she's predicting where they'd be, and not being in their path when they get there.
If she was a normal human then she must have dodged ahead of time otherwise she would have gotten tagged even if she knew where they were going and attempted to dodge because she would not be physically capable of moving enough distance to get out of the way at that speed gap.

Since countering speed gaps with skill also occurs when Garf fights Kurgan later, it remains consistent,

As they just said, a 5x speed gap being countered with skill isn't impossible, just very hard. Actually, in my examples above I gave, involving shifting your head to avoid a punch from 70cm away (about arm distance), that'd only be about a 7x difference. Something like that is possible, but you're arguing tens of times, there simply doesn't exist enough space to do so.

as it explains why Garf doesn't shit all over Kurgan who is significantly slower than him- his skill solves the speed gap and gives Garf an incredibly high difficulty fight where Garf will die instantly if he even stops to think before he acts.

False equivalence, being slower and being 50x to 150x slower is not the same, I can not stress enough that this is mathematically impossible under these conditions.

There is a lot of predicting in the verse, especially from "feeling" what the opponent will do based on things "how the air hangs above them", and sensing hostility and intent, and then also more grounded predicting feats based on eye movement, breathing, expressions.

Nobody is denying they have that, just that the Ram feat ain't as insane as implicated. But even then it's still probably IA and A-P.

The top tiers intuition and predictions might as well be divination with how they predict things that are physically impossible to predict.

Predicting is honestly one of the few ways to get around huge **** off speed gaps as long as the thing in question doesnt compensate. like if you knew a bullet was going to be fired in 1 second from outa of nowhere via precog and you dodged the moment you knew that, and then it fired, you still dodged it, but its speed didnt matter at all.

 

[Zabazab]

That's the thing though, speed isn't a factor here

As they just said, a 5x speed gap being countered with skill isn't impossible, just very hard

Being skilled in her verse grants AP, IA, and other abilities too depending on the skill tier, due to the universal relationship of the power system and skill.

"Overcoming the 65-130x gap with skill" naturally means utilising these abilities, and seeing through the attacks of the incredibly unskilled Beast Garfiel, who can't hit Ram despit being so much faster because he has no skill to counter.

On the other hand when Garfiel fights an opponent on Ram's level later, the afformentioned Kurgan, he isn't being completely dominated because although the speed gap is far far smaller, non-beast Garfiel is an incredibly skilled fighter (though he still struggles against the significantly slower Kurgan as the skill gap still exists).

Ram's feat being IA/Prediction (though Lonkitt seems to disagree with it) is absolutely fine with me, as long as manaless Ram does not scale to Garfiel and the fact that it allows her to deal with massively faster characters is acknowledged. I also think it becomes less effective as the opponents skill increases relatively.

 

[Fezzih_007]

Besides the Ram feat not being preco, i also think they should't scale to any other character, because of Ram lack of using flow motion in this scene.

 

[SatellaTheWoE]

Besides the Ram feat not being preco, i also think they should't scale to any other character, because of Ram lack of using flow motion in this scene.

Thats still a skill feat and people like theresia who are vastly superior in skill in every category will definitely still scale