Re Zero Skill Evaluation Part 2

[Zabazab]

True actually, Tiger Garf may be a physical monster but he's likely easy to read for someone as incredible as Ram.

 

[Celestial_Pegasus]

In other words if you just use brute force, even if you are significantly faster, Ram can deal with it, and the more skilled you are the less likely Ram could do the same, ie if Ram fought a normal Arc 4 Garfiel with no mana, she probably couldn't have dodged as many attacks as she did against transformed Garfiel.

That said I think @Zabazab makes sense, i dont think Zombie Kurgan should scale.

 

[Fezzih_007]

In other words if you just use brute force, even if you are significantly faster, Ram can deal with it, and the more skilled you are the less likely Ram could do the same, ie if Ram fought a normal Arc 4 Garfiel with no mana, she probably couldn't have dodged as many attacks as she did against transformed Garfiel.

That's exactly why i think the Ram feat is fine.

 

[VortechsTG]

In other words if you just use brute force, even if you are significantly faster, Ram can deal with it, and the more skilled you are the less likely Ram could do the same, ie if Ram fought a normal Arc 4 Garfiel with no mana, she probably couldn't have dodged as many attacks as she did against transformed Garfiel.

Ram even noted she was only able to beat him because he was in that form.

That said I think makes sense, i dont think Zombie Kurgan should scale.

I completely disagree. Why would a much older and less skilled Kurgan be just as skilled as Theresia? It seems far more likely that they're just both young. After all if the Witch cult has the ability to make them younger and stronger why would they only do that for Theresia?

I don't think it's too big of a stretch that Garfiel is just not that far behind them. He is supposed to be able to compete with them. I certainly find it to be less of one than only Theresia being in her prime and only her being as skilled as Wilhelm yet Kurgan still somehow being just as strong.

 

[Celestial_Pegasus]

If he is that close to Kurgan who is supposedly equal to Old Wilhelm, why is he freaking out when he senses how skilled Old Wilhelm is?

 

[VortechsTG]

If he is that close to Kurgan who is supposedly equal to Old Wilhelm, why is he freaking out when he senses how skilled Old Wilhelm is?

What skilled warrior, especially one with instincts as insane as Garfiel, would not freak out when faced with someone more skilled than them?

 

[Arnoldstone18]

wait was the garf ram thing in the anime??

 

[Celestial_Pegasus]

@VortechsTG It's still so weird to me, Garfiel was on the ground on all fours sweating against Wilhelm, while I don't remember anything exaggerated like that against Kurgan.

@Arnoldstone18 Pretty sure they skipped that, only showing up to where she runs out of mana, not what she does afterwards.

 

[Arnoldstone18]

Oh no wonder, now I remember what you guys are talking about

 

[Fezzih_007]

wait was the garf ram thing in the anime??

Nope, after landing a combo on Garfiel, Ram spill blood from her forehead ended up kneling down and Otto distract Garfiel so Ram can avoid Garfiel steps.

 

[Zabazab]

It's also even more different in the Webnovel, since rather than the lack of mana robbing her of her superhuman abilities, it only robs her of her durability/body's ability to keep up with 2 Shackles Released.

She goes a bit psycho with her Oni instincts and starts smashing her hands to bits against Garf while blitzing him, and tries to choke him out.

It was a really cool set of lines but it doess mess with the power system of mana = superhuman abilities so I'm kinda glad it was cut.

 

[VortechsTG]

It's also even more different in the Webnovel, since rather than the lack of mana robbing her of her superhuman abilities, it only robs her of her durability/body's ability to keep up with 2 Shackles Released.

She goes a bit psycho with her Oni instincts and starts smashing her hands to bits against Garf while blitzing him, and tries to choke him out.

It was a really cool set of lines but it doess mess with the power system of mana = superhuman abilities so I'm kinda glad it was cut.

Yeah, that's a big webnovel moment.

 

[Fezzih_007]

Ok, this feat is super bizarre then, i wonder if the Manga gonna be different to.

 

[VortechsTG]

It's still so weird to me, Garfiel was on the ground on all fours sweating against Wilhelm, while I don't remember anything exaggerated like that against Kurgan.

He literally just readied himself into a battle stance. That isn't particularly exaggerated lol. Certainly not enough to overturn every other line of reasoning I've laid out here.

 

[Celestial_Pegasus]

The next instant, there was a massive swell, and Garfiel reflexively leaped backward.

“”

Garfiel had launched himself toward the door and was crouched on all fours breathing wildly. As everyone around them looked stunned at his sudden, strange action, Mimi was calmly still eating, cleaning the fish’s meat off the bone.

Launches himself towards to door, and is on his hands and knees breathing wildly like a animal.

Looks exaggerated to me.

I think you logically make sense, but the whole thing is just very weird to me.

 

[VortechsTG]

Launches himself towards to door, and is on his hands and legs breathing wildly like a animal.

Looks exaggerated to me.

I literally just reread the scene so I know. That is pretty normal behavior for Garfiel. It's not like Kurgan where he went in expecting the fight. This was just suddenly dropped on him while they're eating. And on top of that Wilhelm is purposely trying to show off his skill. Kurgan wasn't. So, yes, it is exaggerated compared to when he faced Kurgan but that's not abnormal. The circumstances are different.

 

[Zabazab]

I think I disagree, Garfiel feels a bit of confidence after defeating Kurgan, and Wilhelm puts him in his place- if Wil & ZomKurgan's skill is equal why would he freak out?

If we fought them in their prime, we wouldn’t have won?”

“Neither you nor I. I would be a corpse, and you would be naught but hunks of flesh scattered about. That is the truth.”

“Y-you say that, but I…”

“—Don’t get cocky, kid.”

—The next instant, there was a massive swell, and Garfiel reflexively leaped backward.

“”

Garfiel had launched himself toward the door and was crouched on all fours breathing wildly. As everyone around them looked stunned at his sudden, strange action, Mimi was calmly still eating, cleaning the fish’s meat off the bone.

“Th-that was…”

“You give off the feeling of great potential, Sir Garfiel. But you are as yet untempered, and that talent is still being forged. I am already in the realm of the ancient past, but…I know the real deal. And that just now was but one small fragment of it.”

“”

“The summit you are reaching for is not weak enough that you can reach it as you are now.”

Saying that, Wilhelm wiped his mouth and stood up, indicating that he had said what needed to be said. In addition, his gaze turned not to Garfiel, but to Mimi.

 

[Epiccheev]

Willhelm is more skilled at being scary

 

[VortechsTG]

I think I disagree, Garfiel feels a bit of confidence after defeating Kurgan, and Wilhelm puts him in his place- if Wil & ZomKurgan's skill is equal why would he freak out?

We literally see Garfiel doubting if he really deserved Kurgan's commend earlier and then Wilhelm telling him he would have died instantly if it was really Kurgan. There were clearly already mixed feelings before Wilhelm said that.

And, again, even if he's confident why is it so weird to be freaked out by the sudden appearance of an aura that is comparable to his? Especially for someone like Garfiel who has always had problems with controlling his instincts. Just existing was enough for him to full on attack Reinhard.

 

[VortechsTG]

Willhelm is more skilled at being scary

When he's literally trying to be and Kurgan isn't, yeah.

 

[Celestial_Pegasus]

We literally see Garfiel doubting if he really deserved Kurgan's commend earlier and then Wilhelm telling him he would have died instantly if it was really Kurgan. There were clearly already mixed feelings before Wilhelm said that.

And, again, even if he's confident why is it so weird to be freaked out by the sudden appearance of an aura that is comparable to his? Especially for someone like Garfiel who has always had problems with controlling his instincts. Just existing was enough for him to full on attack Reinhard.

I think the problem is as you said here, against Reinhard he instinctively knew he was far above him, and couldn't stop himself from attacking, this is literally fight or flight response.

Against Wilhelm, he also felt outmatched, but this time instinctively choose the flight response.

In both scenario's clearly Garfiel instinctively feels he is outclassed, so Wilhelm is above him, i think we all agree there.

The problem is after that, to what extent is he outclassed.

 

[Zabazab]

I do think Wilhelm's skill must be at least noteably higher for Garf to feel outclassed, since Garf has overwhelmingly superior physical stats, he's even stronger than Young Wilhelm.

 

[VortechsTG]

I think the problem is as you said here, against Reinhard he instinctively knew he was far above him, and couldn't stop himself from attacking, this is literally fight or flight response.

Against Wilhelm, he also felt outmatched, but this time instinctively choose the flight response.

You don't have to feel outmatched to have a flight or fight response. You just have to feel like you're in danger.

In both scenario's clearly Garfiel instinctively feels he is outclassed, so Wilhelm is above him, i think we all agree there.

No I don't agree. Idk why that's your assumption. What in the scene indicated he clearly feels outclassed? He just feels in danger.

 

[VortechsTG]

he's even stronger than Young Wilhelm.

He's stronger than Wilhelm was before he joined the army. That's impressive, but to say he is stronger than "young Wilhelm" is totally inaccurate.

 

[Zabazab]

I mean "Young Wilhelm" as we see him in Ex2 would range in age from 15-18, and Garf > 15 year old Wil.

It is true though that just "Young Wilhelm" was too vague of wording on my part.

No I don't agree. Idk why that's your assumption. What in the scene indicated he clearly feels outclassed? He just feels in danger.

Garfiel feeling "cocky" according to Wilhelm over beating Zombie Kurgan (Zurgan) implies that Garfiel is confident in fighting against fighting Zurgan-level opponents.

He beat Zurgan and it almost went to his head, but then Wilhelm shows off some of his skill to Garfiel, to show he's still not at a level where he can show conceit.

That, to me, implies that Wilhelm > Zurgan. It's cool if you disagree but I just cannot see a world where Garfiel isn't outclassed in skill by Wilhelm.

 

[VortechsTG]

I mean "Young Wilhelm" as we see him in Ex2 would range in age from 15-18, and Garf > 15 year old Wil.

It is true though that just "Young Wilhelm" was too vague of wording on my part.

Well the quote was actually talking about them at 14. Wilhelm joined the army at 15.

Garfiel feeling "cocky" according to Wilhelm over beating Zombie Kurgan (Zurgan) implies that Garfiel is confident in fighting against fighting Zurgan-level opponents.

Just because he was confident doesn't mean he's cautionless. ESPECIALLY not after what happened when he just charged into battle without thinking earlier in the arc.

He beat Zurgan and it almost went to his head, but then Wilhelm shows off some of his skill to Garfiel, to show he's still not at a level where he can show conceit.

He didn't just show his aura to prove how far Garf has to go though. He also said the real Kurgan would have easily killed him and that the battle aura he was showing was a small fraction of true swordsmanship. If he was just using his aura alone to humble Garfiel, sure, that would show he's superior. But we know they're around the same level anyway and he's not just using his battle aura.

That, to me, implies that Wilhelm > Zurgan. It's cool if you disagree but I just cannot see a world where Garfiel isn't outclassed in skill by Wilhelm.

I think I maybe got mixed up because CelestialPegasus started talking about his aura being superior which isn't just based on skill so I thought he was refering to their overall power. I agree Wilhelm is still noticeably more skilled. At least, as of arc 5 he is.

 

[Zabazab]

I think I maybe got mixed up because CelestialPegasus started talking about his aura being superior which isn't just based on skill so I thought he was refering to their overall power. I agree Wilhelm is still noticeably more skilled. At least, as of arc 5 he is.

We arguing for no reason then wtf

Well the quote was actually talking about them at 14. Wilhelm joined the army at 15.

Nah it's pretty explicitly talking about them at 15.

Q: Garfiel is now around 15, but compared to when they were 15, between him, Julius, and even Wilhelm, which was strongest?

A: If it's at age 15, it's overwhelmingly Garfiel, indeed.

 

[VortechsTG]

We arguing for no reason then wtf

No, because I still think Zombie Kurgan is just as skilled as old Wilhelm.

Nah it's pretty explicitly talking about them at 15.

Damn, I must be going crazy...

 

[Zabazab]

No, because I still think Zombie Kurgan is just as skilled as old Wilhelm.

I'm fine with that, I only had an issue with it due to Ram-level fighters being able to counter speed gaps via skill, but the idea that it can be countered in turn by being skilled themselves removes that issue for me.

Even though Garfiel is outclassed in skill, he's physically far beyond someone like Wilhelm- basically only Ram releasing Shackles can compare- and he's still not lacking in skill at all, he's likely on the level below Old Wilhelm's level, no one comes to mind who is above Garf's skill and below Wilhelm's skill for me.

Honestly I think Old Wil & Zurgan being comparable in skill makes more sense now otherwise I think it'd be hard to believe Garf doesn't shit all over him.

Damn, I must be going crazy...

Garfsweep

 

[VortechsTG]

he's likely on the level below Old Wilhelm's level, no one comes to mind who is above Garf's skill and below Wilhelm's skill for me.

I mean I could make a case for the Remendis family but otherwise...

Honestly I think Old Wil & Zurgan being comparable in skill makes more sense now otherwise I think it'd be hard to believe Garf doesn't shit all over him.

Well, it sounds like we agree then.

 

[Celestial_Pegasus]

We can all agree to Zombie Kurgan scaling then, and that's it for that topic.

 

[SatellaTheWoE]

Zurgan is a good name for Zombie kurgan, on that same note what should we name zombie theresia?

 

[Greatsage13th]

Zurgan is a good name for Zombie kurgan, on that same note what should we name zombie theresia?

Therezia?

 

[SatellaTheWoE]

Therezia?

Zheresia? Kind of like that one grrat spirit in sloth if Zarestia

 

[Zabazab]

Just want to make sure of something- Roswaal L obviously has all of the knowledge and skills of Roswaal J due to being the same person (though J has far superior physical stats), so he should scale to her skill feats and have her abilities, right?

 

[Celestial_Pegasus]

Roswaal J was specifically chosen/bred to be a martial artist, L is a magician.

J spent 20 years honing her martial arts to perfection, does L know those martial arts? Sure, but can he perform them, and to the same extent? That's a whole different question, i would say no unless there is proof he can do everything J can to the same extent.

 

[Zabazab]

Right, then should Roswaal L be considered ~Garfiel level, higher, or lower?

 

[Celestial_Pegasus]

I mean why are we talking about L's skill? He is a magician, you can use arc 7 arguments based on his performance there, but the current material doesn't suggest any reason to scale anything.

It's just an annoyance to me, it can be addressed later.

 

[Fezzih_007]

Man, i forgot to talk about my main grip with the skill blog, gonna do It tomorrow.

 

[Zabazab]

He absolutely is an expert physical combatant long before Arc 7 statements come up, throughout his fight with Ram and Puck, and his fight with Marcos, he displays overwhelming martial skill.

If it's troublesome then yeah he can be left atm.

Man, i forgot to talk about my main grip with the skill blog, gonna do It tomorrow.

It would've been really helpful if you decided to state any issues you had with it before it was agreed on.