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Re:Creators Revision 3

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But that isn't vague tho. We do know that:-

  • A Multiverse of 2-B size exists
  • Said Multiverse has Lovecraftian beings and their realms that are Transcendental to all of Space-Time making them at least 4D if not 5D
  • Real World exists on a Multi-Layered level compared to all of the storyworlds
  • Real World exists on such a level that the mere thoughts and imaginations of the people literally create and shape everything in the Storyworlds including their laws, fates, causality, concepts,etc.
  • Real World is completely seperate from the Causality that the entire Storyworld Reality follows and affecting the Storyworlds does not at all affect the Real World or even the Imaginations/Thoughts of the people but if there are changes in the Imaginations/Thoughts of the people, it can affect the Storyworlds. Not to mention destroying the Real World would void out everything in creation.
  • To reach the Real World, Altair had to Transcend the entire storyworlds reality which consists of said "At least 4D" beings and realms
  • EoS Altair was stated to create an Infinite number of Universes and Stories since the Jap dub says Mugen no Sekai, Mugen no Monogatari and it wasn't at all implied to be one by one or anything like that all
  • EoS Altair also stated that she could Create a Universe inside another World inside another Story referring to the a Universe inside a Universe inside a Universe aka a 5D structure similar to what guys like Emperor-Beyond-The-Sea and Yaha-Kui zaShunina can do
  • The Guidebook also supports this by saying that they'll transcend all of Creation including endless worlds and stories

I still don't see how this is vague at all. Everything itself points out to 5D Altair. The only thing that we lack is a direct statement that they are 5D which gets countered by the stuffs we have at hand.
 
I mean, dimensional tiering is gonna get a massive overhaul soon anyways if I hear correctly.

Also, 4-D is already higher dimensional so I guess Altair could be 4D?

And lastly, higher dimensionality is super strict. Like, there's a large amount of conditions that have to be checked before you can make it High 2-A or Tier 1. Like, viewing the lower beings as literal flat beings, being completely and utterly beyond the lower dimension, and being infinitely above. Kind of like how YHVH's Universe has several layers that when going higher, are each more infinite and more vague than the lower ones.

Transcending alone isn't enough, although I can see it as a possibly tbh.

But we can also ask experts on Dimensional tiering to comment on this for more input.
 
ShinyMagicalGirl said:
I mean, dimensional tiering is gonna get a massive overhaul soon anyways if I hear correctly.

Also, 4-D is already higher dimensional so I guess Altair could be 4D?

And lastly, higher dimensionality is super strict. Like, there's a large amount of conditions that have to be checked before you can make it High 2-A or Tier 1. Like, viewing the lower beings as literal flat beings, being completely and utterly beyond the lower dimension, and being infinitely above. Kind of like how YHVH's Universe has several layers that when going higher, are each more infinite and more vague than the lower ones.

Transcending alone isn't enough, although I can see it as a possibly tbh.

But we can also ask experts on Dimensional tiering to comment on this for more input.
Click to expand...
I would agree with you but here's a few problem. EoS Altair Transcends the Real World which itself Transcends the Storyworlds Multiverse containing at least 4D beings who were stated to be Transcendental to all of Space and Time. So there's 2 layers of Transcendence over the atleast 4D Multiverse with supporting statements from Anime and Guidebook stating Infinite and Endless Stories and Universes creation, Universe within a World within a Story creation,etc.

The real world humans itself views the Storyworlds beings as nothing more than 2D and cannot at all interact with the real world as Meteora explains it. To the Real World humans, fictional charas and their worlds are just 2D pixels and polygons that have been translated by the Real World's laws so that they can appear as 3D beings like the humans in the real world and fit in there. I'm sure people might say "But doesn't that make the storyworlds 2D/Fictional since they were talking about 2D/3D stuff?". Not really because the Storyworlds are consistently described and shown to be real universes throughout the anime and even 3D humans can exist in the storyworlds universe. Even the the Guidebook for the first episode itself calls them as different Universes and worlds rather than 2D world/fiction. Meddling with the Storyworlds doesn't at all affect the real world but meddling with the real world completely affects the Storyworlds even it's destruction.

If you want scans for all of these I can provide you but I wouldn't be arguing this here if there wasn't heavy implications and stuff for 5D sheninagens if not direct statements.
 
I dunno, I'm not expert on Dimensional tiering. I'm just saying that this doesn't seem similar to the other stuff shown by legit 5-D beings, like say Mxy viewing 4D and 3D as flat, literally. There's also the case of SMT and each higher dimension being "infinitely more vague", basically meaning that each higher dimension is literally inaccessible and infinitely and qualitatively superior to the ones below it. Also, as what Medeus said, "Transcending =/= existing on a plane of higher infinity above the universe/multiverse.". This means merely "transcending" something isn't enough, you'd need to exist in a totally infinitely higher plane.

Is there a scan that says Altair in EOS literally became infinitely transcendent and above the lower dimensions? Because that would help a lot. This honestly sounds like how some people argue 5D Madoka; via "transcending" the Madoka-verse which includes 4D space; although that's a different topic altogether.

There's just so many strict requirements for higher dimensions that I feel apprehensive on suddenly accepting High 2-A Altair. As cool as it is, dimensional tiering is just kinda really tough and needs solid and massive proof.

Anyways I'm probably not the best person to debate with this (Cuz like I said, I'm no expert on dimensional tiering heh), so I would just advise we wait for Assalt's response or for Celestial. If this does eventually go through and we get High 2-A Altair (Beware, D&D and SMT awaits you Altair) then that's good and all. I'm just stating my observations based on seeing other, accepted High 2-A pages.
 
But what I said does comply with what the argument is. What Medeus said is correct too and I'm not arguing that he is wrong but here we are talking about Two degrees of Transcendence over at least a 4D sized 2-B Multiverse if you interpret Transcendence over all of Time and Space as 4D instead of 5D. The supporting evidences are her Universe inside a World inside a Story statement, Endless and Infinite Stories and Universes creation, etc statements.

Infinitely Transcendental over Lower Dimensions makes you 1-B/High 1-B afaik kinda like Gods (Magi). I did post the scan in OP which states that Altair transcends all of creation and endless worlds and stories eventually with Setsuna.

Like I said, if this isn't enough proof then idk what is.
 
Okay look, I know you wanna buff your fave girl, but we'll just have to see what the Knowledgeable Staff say about this, as per protocol. You could also call in an expert on Dimensional tiering to give their thoughts, becasue to be honest I'm just plain confused on dimensional tiering itself. Some that seemingly have evidence but are actually not? Some others don't have much but in the end are legit? Things like that are confusing, and I don't want to risk inaccurate profiles because of that. (Maybe the audit group really should be implemented)

Who made the Dimensional tiering page in the first place anyways? They could help evaluating this.
 
Dimensional tiering is bs unless the verse has feats that comply with that. Belldandy has "High Complex Multiversal+" rating for being supposedly 11D which is totally and blatantly false on all regards and this is coming from someone who finished the manga 4 times over along with watching the anime and the non-canon OVAs plus light novel couple of times.

But it's understandable as to what you're saying.
 
Yeah, that's what I meant too. Which is why I'm confused.

Honestly I can definitely see Altair being 5D but a healthy skepticism is a thing. But if a Staff Member who knows dimensional tiering and is an expert on Re:Creators agrees with this tier buff then I'll totally be on board.

Hope I wasn't being too antagonistic.
 
Ultima Reality would probably be one of our main experts for the new dimensional tiering standard.
 
LMAO I can't post my blog on Type 2 Concept Manip because it has a slur word in it even though it doesn't and neither have I used any xD
 
You should ask several of our administrators and discussion moderators to comment here: VS Battles Staff
 
Belldandy is a leftover from when we first initiated our old dimensional tiering system, when we blindly afforded almost any higher-dimensional characters beyond tier 2 statistics. She should probably be downgraded, yes.
 
Yeah, and someone mentioned Narnia on this thread; and I think I recall some people like Matt and perhaps Ultima Reality mentioning on other threads that the High 2-A to 1-C rating for Emperor over the Seas was considered vague. Though Crimson did mention that "Countless Worlds" would still make him 2-B at the very least. But that will be for another thread.

But anyway, AssaltWaffle still stands that while he agrees with the entirety of the Re:Creators Multiverse is 2-B structured, he feels that the Gods are implied to be capable of creating it one by one rather than all at once. Which would still be Low 2-C.
 
Okay. Assaltwaffle usually has a good sense of judgement.
 
But Gods never really implied to create them one by one. We do know they are capable of 2-B level stuffs since Matsubara, a real world creator, created a Conceptual Force for his Creation's story with the power to warp 3000 Worlds.

Even then I don't see how that corresponds with or is relevant to the premise or the Argument in the OP or anywhere in the post when I never mentioned anything about how Gods creating worlds scale to EoS Altair. This is just Red-Herring and Appealing to Authority at this point.
 
Gotta just chip in here to justify my point since I saw this going on.

The Gods (humans) don't directly create worlds. It isn't like they are causing big bangs and don't have any kind of AP on that level. The structure of the RE:Creators verse in and of itself is what enables this feats of creation to occur. Altair is the only one who ever brute forces worlds into existence and directly changes them without appealing to the normal laws of creation.

As for "the power to warp 3,000 worlds", that is just the most ambiguous wording ever. What does warp mean? Who knows. What does worlds mean? Universes or planets makes a pretty big difference. Even then, that would only apply to Selesia's AP, not Matsubara, since the law of creation brought that ability into existence. Matsubara didn't warp 3,000 worlds. Using an analogy, he basically pressed a button that then allowed something else to warp 3,000 worlds (remember that "Warp" and "worlds" are ambiguous still, have zero context, and come from a 20 second chant of an attack that is only used once).

We know that Altair can change the world around her and create worlds even without the natural law of creation aiding her, and that's pretty much all we do know.
 
But the argument isn't really about "If the Creators are Multiversal or Universal and how Altair scales off them". No one really argued if the Creators are Multiversal or Universal beings and even I mentioned in the OP that only the Imaginations of the creators manifest as worlds, stories,etc. The power of the creators is of little relevance with the tiering of Altair here and this is honestly Red-Herring.

When was the last time Re:C used "Worlds" to refer to "Planets" or even "Celestial Bodies"? Can you point me out one single instance in the entire series where "World" was used to refer to a planet? On the contrary, they consistently used the term as a synonym for Universes and stories. Warp just means that. Warp. Granted it's ambiguous, but warping 3000 Worlds aka 3000 universes/stories implies some sort of reality warping force. Even then, it has nothing to do with what the post is about. It's just something that was "Imagined" by Matsubara which was manifested in Selesia's world and she used it. Yes, it doesn't really translate to his AP and no one really argued it about it. Not at all related to the point.


The main argument, however, is this:-

  • A Multiverse of 2-B size exists in the form of Story Worlds or Fiction
  • Said Multiverse has Lovecraftian beings and their realms that are Transcendental to all of Space-Time making them at least 4D if not 5D
  • Real World exists on a Multi-Layered level compared to all of the storyworlds
  • Real World exists on such a level that the mere thoughts and imaginations of the people literally govern everything in the Storyworlds including their laws, fates, causality, concepts,etc.
  • Real World is completely seperate from the Causality that the entire Storyworld Reality follows and affecting the Storyworlds does not at all affect the Real World or even the Imaginations/Thoughts of the people but if there are changes in the Imaginations/Thoughts of the people, it can affect the Storyworlds. Not to mention destroying the Real World would void out everything in creation.
  • To reach the Real World, Altair had to Transcend the entire storyworlds reality which consists of said "At least 4D" beings and realms
  • There is even a gap shown between "Reality" (aka real world) and "Fiction" (aka story worlds) where Meteora's conceptual realm or the Birdcage was created and set up
  • EoS Altair was stated to create an Infinite number of Universes and Stories since the Jap dub says Mugen no Sekai, Mugen no Monogatari and it wasn't at all implied to be one by one or anything like that all
  • EoS Altair also stated that she could Create a Universe inside another World inside another Story referring to the a Universe inside a Universe inside a Universe aka a 5D structure
  • The Guidebook also supports this by saying that they'll transcend all of Creation including endless worlds and stories
 
Yes, the multiverse is 2-B in size.

It has things claimed to be Lovecraftian and higher dimensional. Aside from a guidebook, nothing supports that and they never show anything hinting at higher-dimensional nature. When it comes to higher-D, which is an extraordinary rating, you need extraordinary evidence which we simply don't have for the hounds. Being higher-D can also mean different things for different verses. In Rick and Morty, they have a 4-D being that can travel through time like it's a normal axis of movement, even giving directions to his companion in a way that makes it sound like he's driving a car. That and they are manipulators and maintainers of time. That said, Rick literally beat him up. A physically normal old man beat a 4-D being because that being in that media did not show the attributes that this site acknowledges as coming with higher-dimensional existence. Same goes for the hounds. The only thing they do is kill a random store clerk.

The real world is just a central universe in the verse and is the source and anchor from which all the other worlds stem. It isn't inherently layered.

The laws of creation do dictate this to be the case, yes, but that just shows a powerful law of the verse, not its dimensional superiority.

The real world is the origin and anchor from which all creation flows forth. It is superior becomes of this, but this doesn't prove anything higher-D.

This goes back to the hounds, I'm guessing. See above. Also "transcend" in this context more likely means "break free from", which is almost directly stated in other parts of the show. It doesn't indicate she became higher dimensional or transcendent in comparison to other worlds, just that she isn't shackled by the laws governing her world anymore and became independent from the the created worlds.

Yes. Gaps in universes happen in a lot of fiction and in and of themselves mean nothing without elaboration.

I'm not a Japanese translator so I can't attest to the validity of that statement. However that certainly seems contradictory, as Altair tells her she will make a new universe if Setsuna begins to become incompatible with the current one. That, to me, definitely implies she has not yet created them but will when the need arises, and that since they will live for eternity that need will arise an infinite number of times, creating an infinite and unending story. Given the broader context it doesn't seem to indicate a one-off pop-in of a 2-A structure.

Creating universes in universes isn't higher-D. Franklin Richards can create a universe in his hands while in the normal universe. This doesn't mean that the universe he created is lower-D or his universe is higher-D. You can have isolated space-time continuums within one another in fiction and not have it be related to the dimensionality of any of the said dimensions.

Transcend can also definitely mean "break free from" or "rise beyond" in the sense that they are no longer bound to the laws of the old world. Altair made a completely new and seperate universe that doesn't have the law of creation, as evidenced by Setsuna's existence being allowed in this new universe and the unrestricted access of Altair's powers.
 
Rick beating up the 4D being doesn't really disprove the chara being higher dimensional because 80% of fiction doesn't really work with how this "Site Acknowledges Dimensional Tiering". What it does disprove is that the Chara in Question isn't Uni+ or Multiversal,etc. Even then this is false equivalency because Hounds just momentarily appear in the series for 10 secs and kill off a human. Same thing happened in the Lovecraft story where they appeared inside Chalmers' room and killed him. Does that disprove the extensive description of them being stated to come from a higher dimension and be beyond Space, Time, Matter, Force, etc? Nope. Furthermore, I argued that their Universe/Realm from where they come from itself should be at least 4D, if not 5D due their nature of being 4D formless creatures as depicted in the guidebook stating about how the Hounds is a story in the verse. Never really argued about them being High Multiversal or Universal+.

But it was stated Multilayered twice at least.

But it's not really the law of the verse. It's just some conceptual ability only the Real World humans have and is only exclusive to them. Hence why the creations could not create or affect any worlds but once Meteora became a human EoS she could utilize the power of creation.

Given the entire context, it kinda does but let's give you the benefit of the doubt.

The point really isn't about her breaking free from the shackles of the storyworlds (which is also true), but rather how she reached the real world which is done via Transcending.

Yes gaps do happen but Meteora specifically grouped the Storyworlds as "Fiction" and the real world as "Reality" implying she's talking about the dimensional gap between the Real World and Storyworlds reality.

How does that imply that the "need will arise an infinite times"? Them living for eternity doesn't really add anything credible to this point. Moreover, the statement of "Setsuna Warping the Universe" happened in the first Universe which was erased and replaced by the second universe which was perfectly fine. Nothing to do with the whole "need will arise an infinite times".

Franklin Created a "Baby Universe" as a kid. It's not even a real universe but rather a pocket reality sort of. In the context of Re:C, Altair states that she'll create a Universe inside a world inside another Story. What's the point of creating an isolated Space-Time when she can just straight up create a low 2-C Space-Time continuum in the first place?

Again, the scan states they'll eventually transcend all of creation including endless worlds, endless stories that they have created. Not that they have only transcended the real world in which case I would have agreed with you.
 
Assaltwaffle seems to make sense to me.
 
Dragopentling said:
I'm okay with that sort of agreement. How many universes are we talking about here, though?
Click to expand...
How many fictional series exist in real life? That number.
 
@RM97

Well the universe/realm being 5D doesn't really mean much since it would follow the same rules as the hounds. Even if it's called 5D, if it doesn't produce entities that have 5D qualities as the Wiki understands them or has the functional properties of a 5-D universe, then we can't just accept it at face value. We'd need more info and we don't get that since the dogs are a one-off brought into being by Magane Chikujoi.

That's fine. Multilayered in and of itself doesn't mean anything.

The powers of creation aren't something directly used by humans and are absolutely the laws of the universe. Altair even says that explicitly. "If I shake the pillar now then I would be the one repelled by the world." She even uses "Sekai" to indicate the actual world, not just humans.

The only thing we know is that she broke free of the storyworlds. We don't know if she became transcendent of them on a dimensional, especially since she just directly pulled people into the real world. They were never stated as transcending, and yet they all still had similar powers, just not on the level of the Holopsicon. That said, they were still bound by their stories and could be influenced after they arrived, indicating that "transcend" in this context means being unaffected and independent of the story rather than becoming dimensionally superior.

Even if there is a dimensional gap between the universes, unless it shows qualities of being higher dimensional we can't treat it as such. Once again, extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence.

If the need arises over any finite period of time, as Altair implies it will, then over an infinite number of years it will be required an infinite number of times. The second universe was fine, but for how long? Why would she even bother telling her she would make a new universe for her if the need arose if it was a one off? She would just do it and then there wouldn't be a need to say anything.

For the perspective of the people inside the baby universe, it would just appear normal. What would be the point of creating a higher-D structure? That point is irrelevant.
 
AssaltWaffle is once again making sense here.
 
But the hounds were stated to Transcend all of Time and Space (look up in OP). The realms they are from not showing "5D qualities as the Wiki understands them or has the functional properties of a 5-D universe" isn't their problem since we never see them at all and just going by statements. So we can't dismiss it without substantial proof unless it has antifeats or any contradictions.

In the context, the Real World was called Multilayered in comparison to the entire Storyworlds. It definitely implies the Qualitative superiority it holds against the storyworlds reality in their entirety.

Not really. The Restorative Power of the Universe Ôëá The Power of Creation possessed by the Humans. Altair resisting the laws of the universes has nothing to do with the power of creation/Imagination that the creators posseses.

What you are saying about being unbound and uninfluenced from the storyworlds is correct and I'm not arguing against that. What I'm saying is that Altair had to "Transcend" into the real world bypassing the Storyworlds Reality including the Hounds' realms. That really doesn't make her dimensionally superior since she merely went to the higher level reality of the Real World where no beings, not even the hounds could go to. This isn't merely Dimensional travel as other beings in the Storyworlds like the hounds cannot go into the real world even though they are 5D.

But Altair never implies it'll take infinite time for her to create infinite universes. The quote was If your existence causes this world to become warped, then I'll create another universe for you in another world in another story. Forever. This time... As long as you want. And... You'll write my story... In the story that I'll create. You and I will create infinite story... infinite world. Everything flows. Not only is she implying a layered Universal structure but she is also says how they'll create both create infinite stories and worlds that is further backed up by the Guidebook stating they'll both create Endless worlds and stories and eventually transcend all of creation.

But the baby universe is just a pocket reality Franklin created. We don't even know if it has life or not as it was never mentioned again, let alone explain it. The point of higher D structure is because her Universe is parallel to the Real World which itself Transcends beings that transcends Time and Space.

Once again even if you think these arguments aren't enough for 5D, the guidebook already has statements that Altair and Setsuna eventually Transcending all of Creation including their endless/infinite worlds and stories they created.
 
Hmmm I just realized that pages like this say that Chronos is 5D for transcending space-time and all infinite universes.

I'm starting to think RM might be making sense here and we should discuss more about this. Not instantly agreeing yet but I do think now that 5D is a possibility.
 
Or Chrono's page is just wrong as well since im pretty sure transcending space-time doesnt automatically make you 5-D anymore and he likely needs to be downgraded too.
 
Well, Chronos also has this going for High 2-A in bold:

"Transcends Space-Time itself, as well as the Olympians and the Titans, much like they transcend humans."
 
What, if anything, is left to do here?
 
Unless AssaltWaffle has more to say, I think it's concluded. I still stand by what he says.
 
Okay. Should we close this thread then?
 
Well before we close this, I think RM's most recent long text of context should be addressed accordingly. It seems like it hasn't been addressed I think? And it would be a bit unfair to close this thread without dealing with what RM has to say, as the OP of the thread.
 
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