Is Robert that impressive actually?

[Myxenete]

In the early onset of the fight, Robert is able to somewhat tank a kick to the stomach and shoot out Shunsui's eye (Which seems to be the primary feats that he's getting his scaling from).
My issues with this are 2-fold:

1. Just like in real life, eyes are especially vulnerable in Bleach, with Kenpachi noting that nobody has eyes or a throat that can stand up to steel, even though Nnoitora had been capable of taking his attacks with absolutely no damage at that point.
2. Shunsui after getting his eye shot out notes that he's more disturbed than he thought, so he's not exactly at his best, to remind us of the context, the seiretei has been surprise attacked by a force that killed over 1,000 men in 7 minutes and just before this 4 captains, the major fighting force of the gotei 13, had just lost their bankai, their ace techniques, mental nerfs in bleach can be so extreme they take Ichigo from being capable to fight on par with Byakuya to getting overpowered by random hollows, while I'm not asserting that Shunsui is fighting at random hollow level here, I think it's more than rational to conclude this "disturbed" Shunsui is likely far inferior to his normal strength, which is supported by Shunsui noting that Yamamoto would scold him for struggling against an opponent of this level.

Proposal 1: Throw out the Shunsui scaling:
Shunsui is mental nerfed so Robert shouldn't scale at all and scales off his next best showings/statements, A.K.A the Sternritter keyword

OR

Proposal 2: Robert kinda scales to Shunsui:
Robert's bullets can penetrate and knock out Shunsui once he gets distracted by Yama's death, However Starrk's Ceros are only able to lightly burn Shunsui in a very comparable scenario, in which Lisa even chastises Shunsui for pretending to be incapped.

Scaling chains for proposal 2:
44.35 Petatons = Res. Starrk =< offguard distressed Shunsui < Blut Robert >(x10) Base Robert = 4.435 Petatons < Vollstandig Robert (x3)< Sklaverei Robert (13.305 Petatons)

44.35 Petatons = Res. Starrk =< offguard distressed Shunsui < Blut Robert < Vollstandig Blut Robert (x3)< Sklaverei blut Robert (133.05 Petatons)

These changes would only affect Robert himself and Post-Royal guard training Byakuya Kuchiki, removing the possibly higher ratings on his bankai and higher techniques However Byakuya is accepted to scale to Vollstandig Blut As Nodt on his profile and his stats should be changed to reflect that as well;

389.4479 Exatons = Blut Vollstandig As Nodt < Base Byakuya < Bankai Byakuya (x2)< Senkei Byakuya (778.8958 Exatons) < Shukei Hakuteiken

Agree (proposal 1): Damage3245
Agree (proposal 2):
Neutral:
Disagree:

 

[Apollonir.Scale]

Great job, you prepared it very well. I think we should use suggestion 1. I don't think Robert is at all on the level of Starrk and Shunsui. It was stated that even Meninas is stronger than Robert, and Base Liltotto was able to defeat Volstandig Meninas in an off-screen fight. And this was Liltotto before she ate PePe. Since she ate PePe and added her reiatsu to herself, her power should have increased. In CFYOW, we see Base Liltotto trying to avoid taking damage from Base Halibel. The only reason her version in the novel is weaker than before is the loss of Volstandig. It was stated that all the Quincy girls' powers except Volstandig are present. So there is zero reason to consider CFYOW Base Liltotto weaker than TYBW Base Liltotto. Since it's after she ate PePe, CFYOW Base Liltotto could even be considered stronger. Halibel is still weaker than Starrk in the novel.

It wouldn't be accurate to call the scene where Starrk hits Shunsui with Cero an off-guard. Why would the character reduce his durability when he's aware he's in combat? Also, the databook states that Shunsui should have been on the defensive against Starrk's Cero attacks. So, even without the scene where Shunsui was hit, Starrk's Cero AP should have scaled to Shunsui's durability. Even if you say his durability dropped because he was off-guard in that scene, it's stated in previous scenes that he could take damage upon contact. Shunsui was able to defeat a weakened Starrk. It's mentioned that Starrk's soul split when he summoned his wolves, indicating he was weakened. And yes, even a Starrk weakened by a split soul could still deal damage to Shunsui.

In the novel, Halibel is still weaker than Starrk. In short, I think Base Halibel is even stronger than Robert, and therefore shouldn't be compared to Shunsui and Starrk in any way.

 

[Myxenete]

Great job, you prepared it very well. I think we should use suggestion 1. I don't think Robert is at all on the level of Starrk and Shunsui. It was stated that even Meninas is stronger than Robert, and Base Liltotto was able to defeat Volstandig Meninas in an off-screen fight. And this was Liltotto before she ate PePe. Since she ate PePe and added her reiatsu to herself, her power should have increased. In CFYOW, we see Base Liltotto trying to avoid taking damage from Base Halibel. The only reason her version in the novel is weaker than before is the loss of Volstandig. It was stated that all the Quincy girls' powers except Volstandig are present. So there is zero reason to consider CFYOW Base Liltotto weaker than TYBW Base Liltotto. Since it's after she ate PePe, CFYOW Base Liltotto could even be considered stronger. Halibel is still weaker than Starrk in the novel.

It wouldn't be accurate to call the scene where Starrk hits Shunsui with Cero an off-guard. Why would the character reduce his durability when he's aware he's in combat? Also, the databook states that Shunsui should have been on the defensive against Starrk's Cero attacks. So, even without the scene where Shunsui was hit, Starrk's Cero AP should have scaled to Shunsui's durability. Even if you say his durability dropped because he was off-guard in that scene, it's stated in previous scenes that he could take damage upon contact. Shunsui was able to defeat a weakened Starrk. It's mentioned that Starrk's soul split when he summoned his wolves, indicating he was weakened. And yes, even a Starrk weakened by a split soul could still deal damage to Shunsui.

In the novel, Halibel is still weaker than Starrk. In short, I think Base Halibel is even stronger than Robert, and therefore shouldn't be compared to Shunsui and Starrk in any way.

Haven't read CFYOW in a while so I can't verify all of this but this hard contradicts our current Bambis scaling and if we have to take one form of scaling over the other I'm far more incentivized to take the manga and anime potrayal of the Bambi's strength over the novel.

 

[DragoZeroNova]

This would also remove Byakuya's general numbers, as he would scale to Candice's 38.9448 Exatons in base and it would be higher with Bankai, double with Senkei, higher with Shukei.

 

[Apollonir.Scale]

Haven't read CFYOW in a while so I can't verify all of this but this hard contradicts our current Bambis scaling and if we have to take one form of scaling over the other I'm far more incentivized to take the manga and anime potrayal of the Bambi's strength over the novel.

For example, which feats in the manga do you think contradict this? If you're interpreting Liltotto> Bambietta based on the author's statement, I can prove why that's invalid. If Liltotto isn't stronger than Bambietta, there's no reason to place her above Shinji and Halibel.

 

[DragoZeroNova]

I forgot As Nodt was accepted to use Blut, the new changes are fine. Just remember that Bankai is currently higher, while Senkai is 2x (unless I'm reading your chain wrong)

 

[Myxenete]

The (×2)< refers to "2 times greater than", as in Senkei is 2 times greater than bankai Byakuya

 

[Myxenete]

bump

 

[Apotheosis69]

Feel like this should be Self-Evident Content Revision, as it only affects 1 character

 

[Apollonir.Scale]

Feel like this should be Self-Evident Content Revision, as it only affects 1 character

This should actually downgrade Shikai Byakuya and Volstandig Bazz B as well, but this wiki assumes As Nodt > Robert. Robert forcing Byakuya to unleash Bankai should at least scale him to Shikai Byakuya. The databook states that Byakuya's most valued possession is pride, and because of that pride, he wouldn't unleash Bankai against just anyone. His unleashing Bankai against Robert should at least scale Volstandig + Sklaverai Robert to Shikai Byakuya. The current Shikai Byakuya is also stronger than As Nodt.

 

[Apotheosis69]

This should actually downgrade Shikai Byakuya and Volstandig Bazz B as well, but this wiki assumes As Nodt > Robert. Robert forcing Byakuya to unleash Bankai should at least scale him to Shikai Byakuya. The databook states that Byakuya's most valued possession is pride, and because of that pride, he wouldn't unleash Bankai against just anyone. His unleashing Bankai against Robert should at least scale Volstandig + Sklaverai Robert to Shikai Byakuya. The current Shikai Byakuya is also stronger than As Nodt.

I don't think so. Especially since by the Soul Society Arc, Byakuya's personality has changed A LOT by then.

And just because he popped Bankai, doesn't mean it was needed. Literally look at Ichigo in the first episode of TYBW. You're telling me Fullbring Bankai was needed for those Hollows?

Either way, with the new Cour 4 episodes. The scaling with Byakuya will Vastly change

 

[Apollonir.Scale]

I don't think so. Especially since by the Soul Society Arc, Byakuya's personality has changed A LOT by then.

The databook I was referring to was "Unmasked," meaning it's about Byakuya from the FKT era, not the SS Arc. The importance of pride was also reiterated in the TLAS Arc.

And just because he popped Bankai, doesn't mean it was needed. Literally look at Ichigo in the first episode of TYBW. You're telling me Fullbring Bankai was needed for those Hollows?

Do you think Ichigo's context is the same as Byakuya's context?

Either way, with the new Cour 4 episodes. The scaling with Byakuya will Vastly change

Nothing changes. In Part 4, the part where Toshiro hits v2 Gerard is an outlier. He couldn't even scratch v1 Gerard's hand. He couldn't defeat the Eye Monsters in the anime that he could in the manga. He could defeat opponents in the anime using Bankai, unlike in the manga where he was in Shikai form. It could be said that Kubo thought Shikai wasn't enough for Byakkuya to defeat Robert anymore, so he now defeats him with Bankai.

Also, Ichigo used Bankai because of the anime's return after 10 years.

 

[Apotheosis69]

The databook I was referring to was "Unmasked," meaning it's about Byakuya from the FKT era, not the SS Arc. The importance of pride was also reiterated in the TLAS Arc.

Could you show scans of that?

Do you think Ichigo's context is the same as Byakuya's context?

Is it not obvious?

Nothing changes. In Part 4, the part where Toshiro hits v2 Gerard is an outlier. He couldn't even scratch v1 Gerard's hand. He couldn't defeat the Eye Monsters in the anime that he could in the manga. He could defeat opponents in the anime using Bankai, unlike in the manga where he was in Shikai form.

Hmm? You do know Toshiro was trying to Freeze him and THEN finish him off…
He was recuperating in Mayuri's pod the whole time, For those Eye Monsters. And what opponents…

It could be said that Kubo thought Shikai wasn't enough for Byakkuya to defeat Robert anymore, so he now defeats him with Bankai.

Based on what? And what about Renji using his True Bankai on Mask? Are you telling me that Renji needed to use Bankai on him when Mask popped Star Flash Supernova in Volstandig, when he unfathomably outscales him?

Also, Ichigo used Bankai because of the anime's return after 10 years.

So? Many scenes can be fanservice.

 

[Myxenete]

1. Robert scaling to Byakuya would not be a Byakuya downgrade but rather a massive Robert upgrade
2. Byakuya can destroy Robert's bullets by simply placing his blade in their path, not even exerting any force of his own, the only person in that group that gives Byakuya trouble is Candice whose able to push him back in a sword fight, Byakuya witnesses Robert use Sklaverei then responds to his enemy getting a sudden power up with his bankai, which horrifically blitzes and one taps him, Robert has zero case of scaling to Byakuya whatsoever

 

[Apollonir.Scale]

Could you show scans of that?

I'll send it when I get home.

Is it not obvious?

No. Ichigo isn't someone who values pride as much as Byakuya, and his conversation with Byakuya proves this.

Hmm? You do know Toshiro was trying to Freeze him and THEN finish him off…

What does it mean that she can hit the person she's frozen?

He was recuperating in Mayuri's pod the whole time, For those Eye Monsters. And what opponents…

Also, why would healing in Mayuri's capsule increase her power? Is it going to take her from Cang Du level to v2 Gerard level?

Based on what? And what about Renji using his True Bankai on Mask? Are you telling me that Renji needed to use Bankai on him when Mask popped Star Flash Supernova in Volstandig, when he unfathomably outscales him?

Do you think Renji is in the same context as Byakuya? Also, Renji's Bankai techniques against Uryu weren't even used against Mask. We consider the Uryu fight Renji a different Bankai Renji. Otherwise, the feats in the Uryu fight would be invalid due to the anti-feats against Bazz B and v1 Gerard.

 

[Damage3245]

Proposal 1 seems fine.

 

[Myxenete]

Bump

 

[Apollonir.Scale]

bump