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Ragna the Blood Edge vs Dante

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Dante: 9 (Jjp7123, TISSG7Redgrave, SomebodyData, Peter "Quicksilver" Maximoff, SaberLily015, Sora'sOther, NovaReaper, Ssjg4457, Cropfist)

Ragna: 7 (WeeklyBattles, Brunout, Zeldasmash, Huesito88, Drellix, Sir Ovens, Man from Shadow)
 
I still don't see how Dante wins when only 3 ways with which he can hurt Ragna are something Ragna fights on daily basis while amount of Ragna's soul hax makes every soul manipulation Dante fought seem like an ant.
 
Man from Shadow said:
I still don't see how Dante wins when only 3 ways with which he can hurt Ragna are something Ragna fights on daily basis while amount of Ragna's soul hax makes every soul manipulation Dante fought seem like an ant.
Click to expand...
Look at it like this Ragna could kill Dante his contact Soul Manipulation is indeed strong enough but it wouldn't happen immediatly and his passive Soul Manipulation isnt exactly the best I mean the best feat is Terumi Soul ******* an NOL branch but that was only NOL Jobbers and Terumi's entire body is an Azure Grimoire and he had the Cauldron opened up for smelting Ragna can't really preform the same feat with only Drive: Soul Eater and his fake Azure Grimore.

So because Ragna has to make contact you would have to argue he is going to be landing enough hits on Dante for his Soul Manipulation to be effective the problem is the two moves he would need to land to end it instantly are slow (Devoured by Darkness or Black Onslaught) and he isnt as skill of a swordsman as Dante is

Dante on the other hand has a lot more moves that up his sword play (Teleports, Doppleganger, Dreadnaught, Royal Guard Parry, Multiple Weapons for really odd tactics such as Lucifer) coupled with his insane skill advantage meaning Ragna is gonna be outdueled here.

This is just a matchup were there due to both of them being resistent to each others main form of stomp hax it goes into a very basic who can hit who more with their sword.
 
You could also make an arguement that Dante's "Soul Durability" is directly tied to his physical durability since his HP is what takes damage when his soul is being drained but thats up in the air.

  • You could also make an argument for Dante himself having some form of Soul Manipulation since Vergil is shown forcibly removing Beowulfs Soul after killing him to use as a Devil Arm.
 
@Saber The thing which makes me say that Dante's soul resistance is crap is, in the Neo generator scene, before the artifact started giving him the power in exchange for the soul it was sucking (Perpetual Devil Trigger, yay!), Dante could hardly stand up, hence why Jester just stood there messing with him.

Like I said to SD, I can see Dante winning this due to any of his powers, provided good reasoning is given, except "because he has Soul resistance". No. It won't matter for jack against Ragna's soul attacks.

And we can't give him Soul Removal because that would be giving Vergil's powers to him, which he is not confirmed to have.
 
FateAlbane said:
@Saber The thing which makes me say that Dante's soul resistance is crap is, in the Neo generator scene, before the artifact started giving him the power in exchange for the soul it was sucking (Perpetual Devil Trigger, yay!), Dante could hardly stand up, hence why Jester just stood there messing with him.
Like I said to SD, I can see Dante winning this due to any of his powers, provided good reasoning is given, except "because he has Soul resistance". No. It won't matter for jack against Ragna's soul attacks.

And we can't give him Soul Removal because that would be giving Vergil's powers to him, which he is not confirmed to have.
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Yes but that was DMC3 Dante the weakest Dante by a gigantic margin like insane margin comparing DMC3 Dante to current Dante is like comparing 23rd Budokai Goku to Buu Saga Goku, considering Soul damaging attacks seem to do much less damage the stronger Dante is leads me to belive that More Demonic Energy = Greater Soul Resistance (For example Dante becomes immune to the Soul Eaters when in Devil Trigger and can easily fight while holding the Neo Generator ect) so if a MCB+ Dante can resist soul sucking a Planet Level Dante could do so much better.

Also a lot of people are underestimating the power of the Haywire Neo Generator here, lets actually look at what it is for a second

The Neo Generators are what is used to power Temi ni gru a demonic tower reaching miles into the sky and being a gateway between dimensions, the generators themselves are said to have enough power to last an eternity

Neo-Generator: "A Magic Artifact able to supply power for an eternity. It is used to power the main bridge"

Essentially its an infinite powersource and the one Dante holds in mission 12 is broken and going haywire, so Dante is resisting an infinite powersource attempting to drain his soul which is pretty damn impressive in reality.

Vergil and Dante are twins born of the same father with the same powerset anything Vergil can do Dante can do but much better due to not dying and getting stronger.
 
Point taken on the becoming stronger part, but I don't buy the "Neo Generator is an infinite power source draining him" at all. If anything, that's the sort of power the Neo Generator is giving him in exchange for the soul sucking and that's why he gets perpetual Devil Trigger Mode in the first place.

He's not resisting an "infinite powersource attempting to drain him". He's resisting a powersource that's giving him acces to said infinite supply of energy in exchange for sucking his soul.

EDIT: Also, not really, they share many powers, but not their ENTIRE moveset. That's like giving a character y from a series certain powers just because he's stronger than/similar to character x from the same series.
 
So, this is up again, so as a guy who likes both quite a bit and has done extensive research on this matchup specifically I suppose I could chip in my two cents and look at what Dante and Ragna have to throw at each other (each will be respective):

More varied elemental/energy manipulation = More versatile and precise dark manipulation

Faster-acting regen + Royalguard Style = Constant self-healing from absorbed Soul Energy

Spatial Manipulation = Won't have a super notable bonus effect, Noel and Hakumen cut through space all the time

Minor Precog via Alastor = Sixth Sense

Mind Manipulation < Impressive, but Ragna's taken much worse. It would be a waste of his time and just get him to eat damage.

Flowery, elaborate fighting style and constant taunting < More direct, brutal combat fueled by rage. Dante's style would work well against many people, against Ragna if would just backfire.

Higher AP/Dura > Lower AP/Dura. This one's pretty self-explanatory.

Devil Trigger = Overdrive

Majin Form has two variants and is more potent = Unlimited Mode has no notable time limit.

Slightly higher experience/raw fighting skill and physical strength > While neither would be significant enough as edges on their own, together they'd probably add up. Usually physical strength doesn't matter all that much, but I guess if they get into an arm wrestling contest or something...?

Superhuman Willpower = Superhuman Willpower

Hundreds of kilometers < Planetary range

More versatile weaponry > A single weapon that can take the form of a sword, glaive, or scythe. Dante more or less has his own copy of the Blood-Scythe in the form of Sparda, everything else is icing on the cake.

Higher stamina > Immense, but not quite as immense, stamina.

Various barriers/defensive techniques < Ragna's are more generally consistent in their ability to block things

Miscellaneous methods of setting up combos = Trap/restraining Ars Magus glyphs

C-C-C-COMBO Breakahs = BARRIER OVERLOAD!

Miscellaneous powers in general (TK, for instance) as auxillary support = Exists outside of logic for miscellanous catch-all defensive ability.

So now I guess it's time to come down on the big deal-breakers here.

Dante: Time manipulation, for starters. Ragna can resist it, sure, but that's not the same as waltzing through a time stop, and depending on when/how it's used it could be devastating for Ragna's well-being (i.e. burst him down when he's closer to death before he can recover.) Of course, that's not even remotely a guarantee, but I'd say it is Dante's biggest asset he has to work with that Ragna has no specific answer to.

Also, Doppleganger Style. I feel it's been over-selled above, given the giant AoE of a lot of his attacks and the general experience he has fighting people like Jin and Nu-13 who throw non-stop attacks at people from all sides, but it's still a fairly major player in Dante's game if he hopes to win. What can it do?

A: Spare the real Dante some hits if used right.

B: Double up on his damage.

C: Increase his unpredictability.

Really, what can't it do?

And finally, Jackpot. Unlike the last two edges, whose effectiveness were mostly dependent on who is more able to think fast at any given point in time, this is more a very slim chance to just end the fight entirely, sort of an alt. win condition. I know it's sort of silly to imagine, but if it ever got to the point where Dante was hard-pressed/tired of trying to beat Ragna down, he could just go "Screw it" and try to blast Ragna into the Demon World like he did Mundus, and thus out of his hair. Last I checked that place was near impossible to navigate, especially for newcomers, and Ragna'll definitely have enough demons to preoccupy him while he's there so I don't see him getting out anytime within the year. BFR counts, yo.

Granted, with how choreographed the attack is Ragna has about as much a chance of getting hit by that as winning a lottery big enough to pay off his bounty and learning that Terumi died of a heart attack in the same day, but with how bad his luck is (plus Dante using it in conjunction with other abilities)... well, you never know, eh?

As for Ragna? Yeah, Soul Manipulation, obvious win condition is obvious.

I'll get this out of the way now: I do not believe Dante's soul resist is impressive enough to trivialize this aspect of Ragna's power. If anything, Dante's showings of "soul durability" are less than those of many of the Blazblue-verse's central players. Why?

Well, how strong is Dante's resist, exactly? We know it was able to keep him up and running through that Neo generator incident, and that was used to power the many-miles-high Temen-Ni-Gru, yeah?

Time for a comparison.

Arakune, a "strong soul" by all standards when compared to a normal person, touched the boundary for just a moment, and it nearly undid him entirely. That's why he's the blob-monster we see today.

Hakumen, on the other hand, lounged about in the boundary for a whole century or so before being spat back out, and he was hardly worse for wear all things considered.

We know it's a continual "erosion" type process, it's not like how we consider durability on this site. That being the case, it that time, even if we were to assume the "moment" that Arakune touched the Boundary was like 6 seconds or so, that'd be enough time forever half a billion Arakunes (or an equivalently strong soul) to turn into unintelligible mush.

Hakumen damn near no-sold this, and Ragna's soul shred still works on him.

Soul manipulation is sort of Blazblue's bread and butter, one would be hard-pressed to find a verse in their general weight class with comparable hax of the sort. That's why Ragna would in practice be such a dangerous opponent against Dante despite the previously mentioned AP/Dura disparaty, this is attached to basically everything he does.

On top of this, since the shredded soul fragments are converted directly into seithr through Ragna's drive, he's only going to get more and more powerful, both offensively and defensively, the longer the fight progresses.

...at the end of the day, I might go for Dante... except there's one issue: Dante himself, or more specifically his mentality. He's the kind of guy that would purposefully go easy from the start to give the other guy a fair chance, and at this point he's used to easily dominating just about anyone and anything in his verse. Against someone like Ragna, this'll just cause him to end up eating lots of damage at the start because he wouldn't in character go all out with his tricks and traps from the get-go (something that would infuriate Raggy to no end). Dante is, in other words, as much his own enemy as his actual enemies are. Ain't that why we love him?

It is still perfectly winnable for the dude, don't get me wrong, but I'll have to give a slight overall edge to Ragna. With how close it is though (I can see definitely see Dante winning 45-50% of the time), I'd be content just ruling Inconclusive overall and calling it a day.

P.S.: Sorry about the Great Wall of Texta, there's just a lot to consider for this one.
 
/\ Read it all and holy...

This one has gotta be the ultimate reply to a VS Thread if I've ever seen one.

Like, tier 0 reply material. This shouldn't count as a vote, this should solo the whole thread and end it as inconclusive due to the sheer power of this reasoning.

Dante: 9 (Jjp7123, TISSG7Redgrave, SomebodyData, Peter "Quicksilver" Maximoff, SaberLily015, Sora'sOther, NovaReaper, Ssjg4457, Cropfist)

Ragna: 8 (WeeklyBattles, Brunout, Zeldasmash, Huesito88, Drellix, Sir Ovens, Man from Shadow, ThePerpetual)
 
ik dante's mentality is bad but sometimes he doesn't always do that to be fair he didn't mock Mundus slight sample but i think when he knows somethings up he won't just TAKE the attack and try to dodge instead but who knows he might try dodging after the first couple of hits maybe not...
 
Holy hell, I've read through this entire thing, and both sides provide good arguments as to which side could win. Tbh, this is probably one of the closest matches I came across while on this wiki. Both have strengths and weaknesses that counter each other, and in some cases I would call this a draw. At the end of the day though, my vote is going to Dante, though this is by the slightest of margins. This is mainly due to the fact of the things Dante has dealt with in his games, which I think is more impressive than what Ragna has done so far. Perhaps as more Blazblue games get made, then Ragna could pull off the edge to win, but as of now, I say that Dante got the edge, but only slightly.
 
Sure thing.

Dante: 10 (Jjp7123, TISSG7Redgrave, SomebodyData, Peter "Quicksilver" Maximoff, SaberLily015, Sora'sOther, NovaReaper, Ssjg4457, Cropfist, Thanatiforos)

Ragna: 8 (WeeklyBattles, Brunout, Zeldasmash, Huesito88, Drellix, Sir Ovens, Man from Shadow, ThePerpetual)
 
Yeah, this is a long one. But, I took about an hour out of my day and read every single response. Honestly, I'm going for Ragna for the reasons stated above.
 
Okie dokie, thanks for your time! ^_^

Dante: 10 (Jjp7123, TISSG7Redgrave, SomebodyData, Peter "Quicksilver" Maximoff, SaberLily015, Sora'sOther, NovaReaper, Ssjg4457, Cropfist, Thanatiforos)

Ragna: 9 (WeeklyBattles, Brunout, Zeldasmash, Huesito88, Drellix, Sir Ovens, Man from Shadow, ThePerpetual, Metal Mario875)
 
Dante for me wins

Think of this, Ragna's Azure Grimoire going berserk means Ragna's life is going to end... where Dante's full power can knock someone as strong as Mundus

Ragna's overall power doesn't do jackshit on Dante. He can't defeat Terumi, whose power is not so over the top (even Hakumen can hack him down)

IDEA engine isn't a Phenomena Intervention, its only an aid to his Azure arm to stop draining his life. Dante is as fast as Ragna, sure, yet Ragna's overall stats and abilities can't do something against Dante.

count the time Dante take hits from Yamato, which can cut everything. Dante outlive that weapon and he bent his whole hand into gripping its edge. soulsuck can be bothersome, but Dante got a ton of range weaponry up to his sleeve

Plus the Majin Form defeat a demonic girl in just a touch
 
1. Even if the Azure Grimoire did go berserk, I'm pretty sure that wouldn't happen in this match before either Ragna or Dante are defeated by each other's powers. And the "his full power beat Mundus" is moot, as they're not only in the same tier for this match but also no Universal Dante. It doesn't really matter that he beat Mundus and Ragna "can't beat Terumi" (and IIRC, he beat him in CSEX with the Idea Engine), that's like saying Yamcha can't beat another character on a similar tier to him simply because he never beats anyone in DB.

2. "Ragna's power wouldn't do jack on Dante" ...That's outright downplaying.

3. "Ragna's stats can't do something against Dante" ...Sorry, but the powers, stats and abilities listed on his profile say otherwise.

4. Surviving hits from Yamato = Moot point. The sword works much in the same way as Noel's Bolverk (which can pierce through space), and Ragna fights Noel. He would resist Yamato's cutting power just like he resists Bolverk.

5. "He defeated a girl just in touch" Offtopic. As Ragna and said girl are entirely unrelated, especially when it comes to powers and abilities, this doesn't even matter.

Anyways, vote counted. I just had to clarify all this stuff. Also, waiting for DreadGrimm's reasons before I can count his vote.

Dante: 11 (Jjp7123, TISSG7Redgrave, SomebodyData, Peter "Quicksilver" Maximoff, SaberLily015, Sora'sOther, NovaReaper, Ssjg4457, Cropfist, Thanatiforos, Danterocks)

Ragna: 9 (WeeklyBattles, Brunout, Zeldasmash, Huesito88, Drellix, Sir Ovens, Man from Shadow, ThePerpetual, Metal Mario875)
 
Danterocks said:
He can't defeat Terumi, whose power is not so over the top (even Hakumen can hack him down)
Click to expand...
Uh, you realize Terumi isn't dead right now because he killed himself, right? Ragna has defeated and killed Terumi. He even forced Terumi out of the Sankishin. You are downplaying the hell out of Ragna.
 
Danterocks said:
He can't defeat Terumi, whose power is not so over the top (even Hakumen can hack him down)
Click to expand...
What? Ragna killed Terumi in Central Fiction. It's even a full blown cutscene. He also ripped him out of the Susano'o Unit which is quite impressive considering it's Terumi's original body and he's a soul once inside.
 
"Ragna can't beat Terumi"

So I guess that cutscene of centralFiction where Ragna kills Terumi WITHOUT USING THE AZURE is fake, huh?
 
...Should I not count this vote due to all of the reasons for it being pretty much debunked/downplaying?
 
Okay then.

Dante: 10 (Jjp7123, TISSG7Redgrave, SomebodyData, Peter "Quicksilver" Maximoff, SaberLily015, Sora'sOther, NovaReaper, Ssjg4457, Cropfist, Thanatiforos)

Ragna: 9 (WeeklyBattles, Brunout, Zeldasmash, Huesito88, Drellix, Sir Ovens, Man from Shadow, ThePerpetual, Metal Mario875)
 
hmmm Never once gave my thoughts on this I say Ragna tbh. Mostly for reasons above. But not without Extremely High Difficulty.
 
Eh, last week I asked people if this should be closed as Inconclusive, otherwise I'd bump it. The answer was "It's unresolved, can't close it". Two days ago, I talked about it with Lina and she told me to give it a little while. Since we're still going towards Inconclusive, I'd be okay with it.

Dante: 10 (Jjp7123, TISSG7Redgrave, SomebodyData, Peter "Quicksilver" Maximoff, SaberLily015, Sora'sOther, NovaReaper, Ssjg4457, Cropfist, Thanatiforos)

Ragna: 10 (WeeklyBattles, Brunout, Zeldasmash, Huesito88, Drellix, Sir Ovens, Man from Shadow, ThePerpetual, Metal Mario875, Dragonmasterxyz)
 
@cal what the hell that vote out of nowhere XD but all i see is one word lol so.....reason bro
 
That it's only for the best of people XD.

Also, note how I didn't leave an explanation. Didn't even say "for reasons above."
 
Okay a lot of reasons from a lot of people. It seems like it will go either way or should I said a draw on both sides. I said Inconclusive. Also Cal, you need a reason for that as you not gonna simply pick Ragna for that matte.
 
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