[R2M3] Venefica's Tier 7 Tourney: Spagmatron vs Asuna

[VeneficaAuthor]

Ah, Okay, Thanks for clarifying

While asuna's AP gain has a limit, it's not made clear whether it's the same for speed or not (Haven't decided) but even if we assume it has a limit, spag still won't end up surpassing asuna in speed. Asuna's speed amps alone will put her in blitz ranges right off the bat, and her reactive evolution should further cover for her. Even if she starts to lose that speedblitz edge, Asuna can use time magic to reverse, well, time, and put spagmatron further back in speed, whilst asuna will continue to adapt.

That's true, but like i've said before, asuna is a pretty unpredictable fighter. Once she realizes spagmatron is predicting all her moves, she can switch strategies to confuse it, which will buy her time. Spagm's adaptation isn't instant.

Asuna won't like those odds ordinarily, but again, that's why she's got fortune to help her out here. giving herself 75% odds to complete a task as long as it's possible or not super outrageous is nothing to scoff at. She can't use it to cause everything spagmatron has to suddenly fail for no reason, obviously, but it's extremely useful for asuna to get through those defenses. Since asuna would have a 75% chance of breaking through the digi-shields, it's safe to say she could land a blow with that, the only problem is, it has a cooldown.

Well, it's made clear on spagmatrons profile that it can't ALWAYS reflect attacks (Weaknesses category) which is why i'm bringing up fortune here.

If that's the case, and they can't fail like the digi shields, meaning asuna can't just use fortune to bypass them, then that would mean asuna can't harm him. At least, conventionally. Let me explain.

That much damage reduction will obviously massively reduces asuna's actual landed energy, but once asuna see's that when she tries to just blow him to smithereens, then she'll harm him another way, and just do this...

9000 IQ MOVE: Thunder Magic

The robotic parts on spagmatrons body are, obviously, going to be vulnerable conductors. Asuna will use fortune to allow a danmaku skill like "Million streaks" to get through the digi-shields, and thus reach spagmatrons body. If he uses traditional electronics, or anything that uses anything electric at all (I'm very sure he does, he's literally made in a factory) Asuna could shortcircuit him, which would, disable all of his abilities, and allow asuna to go in for a killing blow. Asuna isn't all brawn and no brains, you know.

Since spagmatron typically doesn't move around, like you say, then this will be even easier for asuna. Even if the first round doesn't land somehow, asuna can always use another or amplify the skill as well

Apologies bro, Here it is

Interesting... However, YOUR MOTHER.

• Attack Reflection, Damage Reduction, & Invulnerability (Via Blocking and parrying)

The description of this on asuna's profile is pretty vague, at least right now, but i can explain it for you. Basically, bakuhatsu possesses a couple of video game-like traits, including a blocking system, which, as long as the opponent isn't massively stronger than them (About one-shot range) Allows adventurers to block any attack except for status effects or sumthin. This means that, when need be, asuna will block any attacks, like lasers or red circles or whatever, that come close, thus reflecting them so that they get absorbed by the very digi-shield spagmatron put around her, which would make it pointless, especially if she realizes what spagmatron is doing.

Even if we assumed asuna didn't block the lasers at all, or just simply had it turned off, I think you're forgetting about asuna's speed edge as well, and the various methods she has at her disposal to stay faster than spagmatron, so it'll struggle to land a hit even with this. Danger sense might not detect something like this, sure, but it can detect the age and radiation manip lasers coming at her, which could tell asuna the intention behind spags attacks, therefore, she could discover the digi-shild around her even if it isn't visible as implied

With how often and varied the uses of riftways can be also, (Especially considering she'd find it ideal here to dodge all the danmaku) it's entirely possible that asuna would teleport around so much that they are only around her for brief periods. She can teleport away from them, like you say, so the gigi-shields would hardly be a hinderence to asuna, even if she doesn't realize it when the lasers are flying at her.

Well, at the same time, it can also be active for the same amount of time (Cooldown still gets turned on tho) So 30 seconds of mostly everything in asuna's favor is nothing to scoff at.

Ranged, cuz asuna shot it through a riftway to restrain a certain someone (No spoilers)

But if asuna has fortune activated to get through the digi-shields chance-related reflection and blocking, spagm could be in trouble if he's in absolute zero ice, which he doesn't have any resistances to

It could send him to any far away location asuna can think of, but if spagmatron can escape with that receiver, could he do it constantly though?

I'd say this isn't feasible, cause asuna could not only keep up a speed edge, but asuna will adapt quickly and will know how to avoid them, and has plenty of tools to do so as mentioned earlier.

Already explained why this won't really be effective even if we assumed asuna's blocking and parrying was turned off ^

Asuna won't just go melee for no reason, especially considering the danmaku red circles all around her, so this also isn't really feasible

That's assuming Spag gets enough EXP to do that, which is very unlikely, especially once asuna see's the red circle and knows how to avoid them. She has plenty of experience with danmaku already, so skill-wise this wouldn't be very hard either.

Correct me if i'm wrong, but i'm very sure spag can't just get gunnix's abilities and not transform into the tier 6 monstrosity, which is barred from tourney rules.

Even then, Asuna can also gain new abilities (As long as they are not too complex for her imagination) mid-fight, which is why i put that as one of her wincons, which you haven't responded to yet, which would put them on equal footing, and also should be a considerable edge for asuna in this fight as well.

I feel like we're headed for incon here lol, though venefica wants us to wrap this up soon and we're going in circles, so i'm already prepping arguments for asuna to be doing the most in this this fight, and thus being the one to advance hehehe

Here

 

[Froggytron]

While asuna's AP gain has a limit, it's not made clear whether it's the same for speed or not (Haven't decided) but even if we assume it has a limit, spag still won't end up surpassing asuna in speed. Asuna's speed amps alone will put her in blitz ranges right off the bat, and her reactive evolution should further cover for her. Even if she starts to lose that speedblitz edge, Asuna can use time magic to reverse, well, time, and put spagmatron further back in speed, whilst asuna will continue to adapt.

Can Asuna keep her speed progression while going 10 seconds into the past mentally?

That's true, but like i've said before, asuna is a pretty unpredictable fighter. Once she realizes spagmatron is predicting all her moves, she can switch strategies to confuse it, which will buy her time. Spagm's adaptation isn't instant.

Spagm is a strategist as well, level 3 alone should rival multiple supercomputers working together, greatly surpassing them with connection to connection to FU library servers, or with 'electricity overdrive' enabled (from level one 50% Charged State). Combined with the knowledge of Asuna’s top technique (Playback) from the very start, Spagm can match in strategy switching, if not outperforming Asuna.

Asuna won't like those odds ordinarily, but again, that's why she's got fortune to help her out here. giving herself 75% odds to complete a task as long as it's possible or not super outrageous is nothing to scoff at. She can't use it to cause everything spagmatron has to suddenly fail for no reason, obviously, but it's extremely useful for asuna to get through those defenses. Since asuna would have a 75% chance of breaking through the digi-shields, it's safe to say she could land a blow with that, the only problem is, it has a cooldown.

How would the 75% chance be applied exactly?

Well, it's made clear on spagmatrons profile that it can't ALWAYS reflect attacks (Weaknesses category) which is why i'm bringing up fortune here.

The phrase 'Digi-shield forcefield can't "portal attacks" away every time ‘ goes from the fact that upon a strong attack reflected, there is a compensation cooldown, reaching even into days if the attack reflected was 3/2 tier. Small attacks will leave a minimal cooldown, and most of them will be attack-reflected, not forcing Digi-Shield to absorb their damage, there is no probability included at all. So Im not sure how fortune could be applied there.

9000 IQ MOVE: Thunder Magic

The robotic parts on spagmatrons body are, obviously, going to be vulnerable conductors. Asuna will use fortune to allow a danmaku skill like "Million streaks" to get through the digi-shields, and thus reach spagmatrons body. If he uses traditional electronics, or anything that uses anything electric at all (I'm very sure he does, he's literally made in a factory) Asuna could shortcircuit him, which would, disable all of his abilities, and allow asuna to go in for a killing blow. Asuna isn't all brawn and no brains, you know.

If Asuna really very to do this, Spagm would just respond with a [[troll face]] Shame how slow progress on Frogman Physiology is going (explaining reasons for most of both evolution-lines powers), but in short, FU Androids operate on a Soul Crystal controlling any inorganic body on organic principles (gaining Charged State bonuses when the inorganic body charges with energy). As a silhouette of Spagamtron from sand could move exactly how Spagamtron in soldier armor, even if all mechanic parts allowing greater comfort to Spagm got disabled, Spagm could do most of what he can, similarly how you could ride a truck without a comfortable soft seat but an iron seat skeleton instead.

Ironically enough, the immerse electricity trying to shortcircuit him in all body parts would spread wonderful energy to all ends of his inorganic body, transferring every millimeter to Charged State, granting Spagm greatly faster movements and sharpening his focus at a long-term time to think as on a clear day sitting in grass (more detailed on Level 1’s charged state technique, which Asuna would help him to achieve even better than if he himself tried).

Since spagmatron typically doesn't move around, like you say, then this will be even easier for asuna. Even if the first round doesn't land somehow, asuna can always use another or amplify the skill as well

Speaking of which, Spagmatron will be able to move way faster after the 9000 IQ MOVE

Apologies bro, Here it is

Thank you! Also sorry for highlighting so much text, it helps me to find the arguments later

• Attack Reflection, Damage Reduction, & Invulnerability (Via Blocking and parrying)

The description of this on asuna's profile is pretty vague, at least right now, but i can explain it for you. Basically, bakuhatsu possesses a couple of video game-like traits, including a blocking system, which, as long as the opponent isn't massively stronger than them (About one-shot range) Allows adventurers to block any attack except for status effects or sumthin.

The point is all these Red Laser attacks hold several stat effects, immerse vaporizing destructive energy, conversion into EXP (all bubbles suddenly capturing Asuna would stack on each other converting her into EXP at such radical speeds, even Spagm with FU library server connections would have troubles hardly noticing) and the immerse aging contact inflicted aging her so fast (with all hits falling at her at once), she would mentally degenerade before finishing her escape thought, and sharpened mind is an inportant factor to wield magic in Bakuhatsu.

With the moment of surprise and EXP conversion working on Asuna way faster than on non-EXP having enemies, the first use of Digi-Shild is the biggest Spgam’s win coin, which can be summoned again and again through the fight, would it fail at the first attempt.

Even if we assumed asuna didn't block the lasers at all, or just simply had it turned off, I think you're forgetting about asuna's speed edge as well, and the various methods she has at her disposal to stay faster than spagmatron, so it'll struggle to land a hit even with this. Danger sense might not detect something like this, sure, but it can detect the age and radiation manip lasers coming at her, which could tell asuna the intention behind spags attacks, therefore, she could discover the digi-shild around her even if it isn't visible as implied

It will be too late, furthermore when Spagm enhanced with 'electricity overdrive' or '9000 IQ MOVE' can summon the Digi-shield in a greater instant than it already was. Also, the shock of all-speed accelerated bullets (Asuna was dodging this entire time) landing with guaranteed hit effect could play an additional role, not even mentioning the Age and Vaporization taking effects.

With how often and varied the uses of riftways can be also, (Especially considering she'd find it ideal here to dodge all the danmaku) it's entirely possible that asuna would teleport around so much that they are only around her for brief periods. She can teleport away from them, like you say, so the gigi-shields would hardly be a hinderence to asuna, even if she doesn't realize it when the lasers are flying at her.

That's why Spagm has to find the best opening for its most deadly first usage, and his explained calculation power can detect the key moment.

Well, at the same time, it can also be active for the same amount of time (Cooldown still gets turned on tho) So 30 seconds of mostly everything in asuna's favor is nothing to scoff at.

Doesn't it apply only to one thing she wants luck in?

Ranged, cuz asuna shot it through a riftway to restrain a certain someone (No spoilers)

But if asuna has fortune activated to get through the digi-shields chance-related reflection and blocking, spagm could be in trouble if he's in absolute zero ice, which he doesn't have any resistances to

There is no chance-related system in Digishileds. If Spagm really concentrates and further boosts himself with 'electricity overdrive‘ expanding his mental operating power (or lets Asuna boost it instead ( ͡° ͜ʖ ͡°)), I could see him being able to summon AT shields against attacks being literally teleported centimeters next to him.

It could send him to any far away location asuna can think of, but if spagmatron can escape with that receiver, could he do it constantly though?

FU Headquarters contains experts at dimensional travel, they could spam the opening with their pinky finger even while asleep.

I'd say this isn't feasible, cause asuna could not only keep up a speed edge, but asuna will adapt quickly and will know how to avoid them, and has plenty of tools to do so as mentioned earlier.

1) The majority of win coins from both sides seems to be hardly possible, given the defensive/evading methods of both. The three Asuna’s win coins, although technically possible, seem to be evenly nearly out of reach in reality as this one.

Already explained why this won't really be effective even if we assumed asuna's blocking and parrying was turned off ^

2) Im relatively confident with this one, the first usage of Digi-Shild in crazy Danmaku Madness at best moment seems to have the best shot from all the wincoins presented from both sides (at least from my view), with all the effects the crazy laser does.

Asuna won't just go melee for no reason, especially considering the danmaku red circles all around her, so this also isn't really feasible

5) I agree, this one is more of a theoretical wincoins.

That's assuming Spag gets enough EXP to do that, which is very unlikely, especially once asuna see's the red circle and knows how to avoid them. She has plenty of experience with danmaku already, so skill-wise this wouldn't be very hard either.

4) Spagm can still get exp from Laser Bubbles catching big amounts of Asuna’s attacks trying to reach the Digi-shield layering nightmare, other factors at growing in EXP help as well.

• Provisional evolution - Exclusive to FU Android line, together with Charged State. If desperate, Spagmatron can trade amounts of EXP from their meter for gaining temporary and limited Gunnix's abilities (aka their future level, with current level stats). Each second of this form drains 5% of Spagamtron's EXP (lowering the strength of Red Laser boosts and physical damage boost), the power needs to be used wisely. Afterwards transforms back.

Given that Spagm has ‘Provisional Evolution’ (the second specialty of FU Android line Frogmen don’t possess), reaching level 4 would in this situation enable Spagm with endless ‘Provisional Evolution’, yet with a much higher attack count. Thats what making this possible.

Correct me if i'm wrong, but i'm very sure spag can't just get gunnix's abilities and not transform into the tier 6 monstrosity, which is barred from tourney rules.

Even then, Asuna can also gain new abilities (As long as they are not too complex for her imagination) mid-fight, which is why i put that as one of her wincons, which you haven't responded to yet, which would put them on equal footing, and also should be a considerable edge for asuna in this fight as well.

Even when Asuna can create new powers, the rapid change in hax and number output as this seems to surpass her at least momentarily (given she cannot counterattack with similarly complicated skills, a bunch of them on top of that), within which Asuna more likely gets defeated before she closes up the gap. That's why I see this as the second long-term Spagm's wincoin

 

[Froggytron]

I feel like we're headed for incon here lol, though venefica wants us to wrap this up soon and we're going in circles, so i'm already prepping arguments for asuna to be doing the most in this this fight, and thus being the one to advance hehehe

Possible conclusion:
Seeing Spagm having one practical wincoin with good timing ([2], Digi-Shild surprise), one lasting wincoin likely overpowering Asuna's one ([4] with level 4 endless Provisional Evolution start), and additional 2x theoretical wincoins, while Asuna having 3x theoretical wincoins, it seems to me Spagm takes this with high difficulty. But I want others to create their own opinion.

 

[Rayfire]

Can Asuna keep her speed progression while going 10 seconds into the past mentally?

Well, yeah, since it’s basically herself from the future taking the place of her past self. So this could help Asuna continue to be faster than spag.

Possible conclusion:
Seeing Spagm having one practical wincoin with good timing ([2], Digi-Shild surprise)

I don’t have a whole lot of time to respond to everything else, but I’ll just say this:

Like you say, Spagmatron is gonna need some really good timing for the digi-shild to be effective, and Asuna is not going to stop moving around everywhere, and Spagmatron summoning the digi-shilds around her with the intent to have a better shot of landing a hit will probably set off danger sense. (Now that I think about it, cause spag would be summoning it with such an intent, if I’m not mistaken?) and it’ll be hard to get that good timing chance when Asuna can consistently stay faster than him.

one lasting wincoin likely overpowering Asuna's one ([4] with level 4 endless Provisional Evolution start)

Like you said before, 5% of Spagmatrons EXP gets drained per second of usage of that, which gives him about…. 20 seconds max. Yikes. If he wants to use it again, he’ll have to get more EXP from Asuna attacking, but if Asuna see’s that, she won’t give it to him.

There is no chance-related system in Digishileds. If Spagm really concentrates and further boosts himself with 'electricity overdrive‘ expanding his mental operating power (or lets Asuna boost it instead ( ͡° ͜ʖ ͡°)), I could see him being able to summon AT shields against attacks being literally teleported centimeters next to him.

That’s not what I meant, it’s made clear on spag’s profile that it can’t always deflect attacks, so Asuna’s fortune could take advantage of that.

Doesn't it apply only to one thing she wants luck in?

Yeah, but the thing she wants luck in is getting past those digi-shields.

Managed to clear up a few small things here ^ But imo, I think both are running off theoretical wincons at this point, even if Asuna seems to be doing all the work here, while Spagmatron just stands and spams red circles and other abilities (lol) I’m still very confident Asuna can avoid any deadly weapons Spagmatron can throw at her, especially with superior speed, but I can’t think of anything that could give her a definitive win for more than a couple minutes max, which is why I brought up that this might go to incon unless something comes up for one of em

 

[VeneficaAuthor]

Well, yeah, since it’s basically herself from the future taking the place of her past self. So this could help Asuna continue to be faster than spag.

I don’t have a whole lot of time to respond to everything else, but I’ll just say this:

Like you say, Spagmatron is gonna need some really good timing for the digi-shild to be effective, and Asuna is not going to stop moving around everywhere, and Spagmatron summoning the digi-shilds around her with the intent to have a better shot of landing a hit will probably set off danger sense. (Now that I think about it, cause spag would be summoning it with such an intent, if I’m not mistaken?) and it’ll be hard to get that good timing chance when Asuna can consistently stay faster than him.

Like you said before, 5% of Spagmatrons EXP gets drained per second of usage of that, which gives him about…. 20 seconds max. Yikes. If he wants to use it again, he’ll have to get more EXP from Asuna attacking, but if Asuna see’s that, she won’t give it to him.

That’s not what I meant, it’s made clear on spag’s profile that it can’t always deflect attacks, so Asuna’s fortune could take advantage of that.

Yeah, but the thing she wants luck in is getting past those digi-shields.

Managed to clear up a few small things here ^ But imo, I think both are running off theoretical wincons at this point, even if Asuna seems to be doing all the work here, while Spagmatron just stands and spams red circles and other abilities (lol) I’m still very confident Asuna can avoid any deadly weapons Spagmatron can throw at her, especially with superior speed, but I can’t think of anything that could give her a definitive win for more than a couple minutes max, which is why I brought up that this might go to incon unless something comes up for one of em

Spagmatron can use Death manip with bullet tornados thin black bolts via provisional evolution, what’s the Asuna answer for this?

 

[Rayfire]

Spagmatron can use Death manip with bullet tornados thin black bolts via provisional evolution, what’s the Asuna answer for this?

• Bullet tornados - Tornados from bullets (made by bullets cycling in a loop), developing own intelligence and moving after the enemy. Shooting next waves of bullets into them turns them larger and faster. Tornados develop thin death manipulation lighting bolts inside them, further raising their danger.

Asuna’s danger sense will pick them up, and combined with superior speed, she’ll have no problem evading until the 20 second max time limit of provisional evolution runs out.

 

[Froggytron]

Since I made all my points clear, I will try to point out just all still misunderstood (EDIT: On which I failed, I still replied to all xD)

Like you say, Spagmatron is gonna need some really good timing for the digi-shild to be effective, and Asuna is not going to stop moving around everywhere, and Spagmatron summoning the digi-shilds around her with the intent to have a better shot of landing a hit will probably set off danger sense. (Now that I think about it, cause spag would be summoning it with such an intent, if I’m not mistaken?) and it’ll be hard to get that good timing chance when Asuna can consistently stay faster than him.

It won't, there is no direct attempt to harm her with it from Spagm, compared to Spagm remotely detonating Red Circles to blast her. All harm credits go to automatized Digi-Shild cooperating with Laser Circles and Laser Points spamming around, Spagm just focuses on summoning Didi-Shild at the right time and leaving it to projectiles and technique, while spending his mental capacity for sending more Laser Circles and mainly for defensive, as the fortune still seems to complicate the Digi-Shield guarding. Using his resources effectively is for which Spagm goes.

Like you said before, 5% of Spagmatrons EXP gets drained per second of usage of that, which gives him about…. 20 seconds max. Yikes. If he wants to use it again, he’ll have to get more EXP from Asuna attacking, but if Asuna see’s that, she won’t give it to him.

Spagmatron can use Death manip with bullet tornados thin black bolts via provisional evolution, what’s the Asuna answer for this?

Spagm can do this anytime, but why would he spend his precious EXP. But the moment his EXP bar turns into level 4 (as he is very close to it), he becomes Gunnix, and with AP above High 7-A restricted, his abilities will behave as ‘Provisional Evolution’ spammed at a much higher count due to his level being 4, converting all unused AP into numbers (as Red Laser itself is very adaptive power). This leads to Bullet tornados being spammed immensely together with Digi-Shilds, I see many strategies for overpowering Asuna when this happens.

That’s not what I meant, it’s made clear on spag’s profile that it can’t always deflect attacks, so Asuna’s fortune could take advantage of that.

They cannot always reflect all attacks in spam of attacks due to the cooldown appearing in microscopic doses from attacks reflected. The cooldown causes it, not a chance.

Yeah, but the thing she wants luck in is getting past those digi-shields.

Won't Spagm switching the shields and deactivating/activating them reset it? It still won't help much, as she needs to brute force through them as they recharge and reappear shortly.

Managed to clear up a few small things here ^ But imo, I think both are running off theoretical wincons at this point, even if Asuna seems to be doing all the work here, while Spagmatron just stands and spams red circles and other abilities (lol) I’m still very confident Asuna can avoid any deadly weapons Spagmatron can throw at her, especially with superior speed, but I can’t think of anything that could give her a definitive win for more than a couple minutes max, which is why I brought up that this might go to incon unless something comes up for one of em

A good use of Digi-Shild and getting infinite (no 5% EXP burning when an EXP level definitely turns into 4) ‘Provisional Evolution’ seem definite to me though, even when the two other wincoins are theoretical (melee bomb and EXP conversion through Laser Bubbles alone)

 

[VeneficaAuthor]

I’m not sure spagmatron becoming gunnix should be allowed even with restrictions. Gunnix is a whole other character

EDIT: Also I think SBA might prevent this in general

 

[Froggytron]

I’m not sure spagmatron becoming gunnix should be allowed even with restrictions. Gunnix is a whole other character

That's why I suggest he only gets the Gunnix's energy and a level 4 EXP bar due to restrictions, enhancing one of his most powerful notable techniques by removing its flaw back and boosting its count is what Red Laser should be capable of, when some outer force would block the transformation itself, even if such a situation happened in FU story.

 

[VeneficaAuthor]

That's why I suggest he only gets the Gunnix's energy and a level 4 EXP bar due to restrictions, enhancing one of his most powerful notable techniques by removing its restriction and boosting its count is what Red Laser should be capable of, when some other force would block the transformation itself, even if it was in FU story.

Does this involve him literally becoming gunnix though? If he reaches the exact EXP to become gunnix and just doesn’t and can use this to remove provisional evolution’s limitation it feels a bit improper/too convenient for the fight

 

[Froggytron]

Does this involve him literally becoming gunnix though? If he reaches the exact EXP to become gunnix and just doesn’t and can use this to remove provisional evolution’s limitation it feels a bit improper/too convenient for the fight

The level jump should be similar to the pokémon one, where the pokémon turns into a white silhouette and transforms from it with its higher evolution stage. Yet rules in the arena seem to prevent the direct transformation, that's why the parts beside physical Spagmatron (being his EXP bar and his Red Laser capacity, both being physically unmanifestable) transform into level 4 only. Spagm would finish his transformation on the physical side as well once he exits the area preventing it, which would be this tourney. Hope this explains

EDIT: The physically unmanifestable capacity of Red Laser is also the thing, being imagined as hands, by Stage 3+ Frogmen to time rewind with a single thought. Besides the thought, Stage 3 wouldn't be seen doing any physical movement whatsoever under an advanced motion scan.

 

[VeneficaAuthor]

The level jump should be similar to the pokémon one, where the pokémon turns into a white silhouette and transforms from it with its higher evolution stage. Yet rules in the arena seem to prevent the direct transformation, that's why the parts beside physical Spagmatron (being his EXP bar and his Red Laser capacity, both being physically unmanifestable) transform into level 4 only. Spagm would finish his transformation on the physical side as well once he exits the area preventing it, which would be this tourney. Hope this explains

I get what you mean, I’m just saying I don’t think Spagmatron should be able to fight like he might as well be gunnix anyway, even if the transformation itself is restricted. He’d basically just be spagmatron in name only at that point, and no part of gunnix should be allowed in the tourney besides the provisional evolution which is just limited enough to be allowed. Spagmatron being able to use Bullet tornadoes death manip without the original 20 second restriction of provisional evolution wouldn’t have been allowed into the tourney if I knew it could happen, which is why I’m pretty iffy about it

 

[Rayfire]

Imma wait for this to be sorted out before i reply to froggy ^

 

[Froggytron]

He’d basically just be spagmatron in name only at that point, and no part of gunnix should be allowed in the tourney besides the provisional evolution which is just limited enough to be allowed.

Not just name, but with appearance, durability, AP, Lifting strength, Intelligence, Range... pretty much all besides the Red Laser capacity giving him the energy to cast more attacks and use level 4 abilities with a level 4 EXP bar (as using higher level's attacks with lower level drains the EXP ridiculously). It's not that Spagm has Gunnix's knowledge either, but could spam them unexperienced into all sides just to spam the battlefield while guarding with Didi-Shileds he is an expert in. Come to it, no physical transformation would give him no transformable red body parts, which are necessary to fire true Gunnix's bullets, so it still remains in the realm of limited provisional evolution using imaginative versions of it...

 

[VeneficaAuthor]

Not just name, but with appearance, durability, AP, Lifting strength, Intelligence, Range... pretty much all besides the Red Laser capacity giving him the energy to cast more attacks and use level 4 abilities with a level 4 EXP bar (as using higher level's attacks with lower level drains the EXP ridiculously). It's not that Spagm has Gunnix's knowledge either, but could spam them unexperienced into all sides just to spam the battlefield while guarding with Didi-Shileds he is an expert in. Come to it, no physical transformation would give him no transformable red body parts, which are necessary to fire true Gunnix's bullets, so it still remains in the realm of limited provisional evolution using imaginative versions of it...

What of the 5% exp drain? It still seems beyond the realm of the spagmatron I allowed into the tourney (which tbh when I let him in I didn’t expect charged state to be brought up at all either, and that was used earlier in this match). The point is whether it not it surpasses previous limits of Spagmatron only, and enters into Gunnix directly, where provisional evolution is technically still all spagmatron, but using level 4 EXP bar makes it sound like Gunnix even if everything else is still spagmatron

 

[Rayfire]

It won't, there is no direct attempt to harm her with it from Spagm, compared to Spagm remotely detonating Red Circles to blast her. All harm credits go to automatized Digi-Shild cooperating with Laser Circles and Laser Points spamming around, Spagm just focuses on summoning Didi-Shild at the right time and leaving it to projectiles and technique, while spending his mental capacity for sending more Laser Circles and mainly for defensive, as the fortune still seems to complicate the Digi-Shield guarding. Using his resources effectively is for which Spagm goes

The point is all these Red Laser attacks hold several stat effects, immerse vaporizing destructive energy, conversion into EXP (all bubbles suddenly capturing Asuna would stack on each other converting her into EXP at such radical speeds, even Spagm with FU library server connections would have troubles hardly noticing) and the immerse aging contact inflicted aging her so fast (with all hits falling at her at once), she would mentally degenerade before finishing her escape thought, and sharpened mind is an inportant factor to wield magic in Bakuhatsu.

inflicting attacks at her from all sides, annihilating her with so many hits at row in a row before she realizes and uses riftway to escape

Well, as i mentioned earlier, the digi-shield isn't going to stick around forever, since asuna will find riftways useful in dodging the red circle danmaku, and you seem to have agreed here that asuna can use that to escape the digi-shield. Considering she'd probably be using that all over the place, since she has to use raw reaction, at least for the red circles, i find it hard to believe it'd be on her for any more than a few seconds, which is a very tiny window that spagmatron needs a lot of luck to land. You've said so yourself that he needs some good timing to land it earlier as well, and combined with asuna's better speed amps and somewhat comparable adaptation making it even more unlikely.

Danger sense is more than just "Oh, this guy wants to kill you and he's gonna do this, so watch out". Using the novel scan i sent way back in this thread, Asuna's danger sense goes off when someone (Haruka) wants to get rid of her or is annoyed in a threatening way. More minor things like that can trigger it. If spagm intends to use it to help him land a hit on asuna, i don't find it far-fetched that asuna could detect that, and know somethings up.

I meant status effects, as in, if another adventurer used a skill like "Nullify" or something to negate asuna's luck magic, asuna can't just block the air to stop it. Red lasers are evidently tangible energy projections, (Fired from spags own body and don't act on itself unconsciously like the red circles if im not mistaken, so danger sense will detect those ahead of time anyways) meaning asuna can block them, thus preventing the digi-shild from being useful, apart from absorbing his own EXP as asuna parrys it into the digi-shild, where it gets absorbed, which asuna is going to notice if we assume danger sense, again, didn't work. (Which it should ^)

 

[Froggytron]

What of the 5% exp drain? It still seems beyond the realm of the spagmatron I allowed into the tourney (which tbh when I let him in I didn’t expect charged state to be brought up at all either, and that was used earlier in this match). The point is whether it not it surpasses previous limits of Spagmatron only, and enters into Gunnix directly, where provisional evolution is technically still all spagmatron, but using level 4 EXP bar makes it sound like Gunnix even if everything else is still spagmatron

5% EXP drain per second is the payment for manifesting imaginative versions of Gunnix's attacks, inflicting effects of the true ones as well. Come to think of it, I got into a loopback here, as the physical manifestation of Gunnix (being banned) is the way to not use imaginative versions being altered from burned EXP.

Reaching higher evolution is still one of the canon greatest ways for FU units to get a final chance in an otherwise neverending battle (given EXP resources are present), that's why it's recalled slow recreation evolution after all. Wonder if evolution should be restricted completely then (then where will the additional EXP go when level 3 EXP meter gets full), or half progressed (as the newly gained EXP can be stored in expanded level 4 EXP meter), or completely allowed, since it's not fast enough to take effect other than in battle endgame, giving opponent much room to defeat FU unit beforehand.

 

[Froggytron]

Will reply to other after dinner

 

[VeneficaAuthor]

5% EXP drain per second is the payment for manifesting imaginative versions of Gunnix's attacks, inflicting effects of the true ones as well. Come to think of it, I got into a loopback here, as the physical manifestation of Gunnix (being banned) is the way to not use imaginative versions being altered from burned EXP.

As long as the limitations are still there, Spagmatron can use the abilities. Gunnix being here is banner, yes, but I’m also complaining about Spagmatron finding a way around the key limitation written in the profile. My point is that if he gains exp level 4 he would be able to use them without that drawback, no? Inexperience and AP restriction may make it seem better, but even so, it’s still evolving to gunnix all the same and he wouldn’t lose that exp anymore, giving him an hax move (Gunnix abilities with no risk to lose then later) that I wouldn’t have alllowed in nornally unless I’m misunderstanding. Higher forms/different keys of a character are restricted even if they’re the same tier

Basically I just want spagmatron to stay within the realm of spagmatron, and not evolve to level 4 in any way outside of provisional evolution which I allowed in. I didn’t think spagmatron evolving at all would be a possibility in the tourney when I let him in

 

[Rayfire]

If gunnix abilities + the EXP and Extreme Time limitation goes through here, i can roll with it. I've already made an argument against the death manip bullets anyways

 

[VeneficaAuthor]

If gunnix abilities + the EXP and Extreme Time limitation goes through here, i can roll with it. I've already made an argument against the death manip bullets anyways

Yes, it's not that gunnix abilities themselves are restricted it's whether or not they can be used willy nilly

 

[Froggytron]

Well, as i mentioned earlier, the digi-shield isn't going to stick around forever, since asuna will find riftways useful in dodging the red circle danmaku, and you seem to have agreed here that asuna can use that to escape the digi-shield. Considering she'd probably be using that all over the place, since she has to use raw reaction, at least for the red circles, i find it hard to believe it'd be on her for any more than a few seconds, which is a very tiny window that spagmatron needs a lot of luck to land. You've said so yourself that he needs some good timing to land it earlier as well, and combined with asuna's better speed amps and somewhat comparable adaptation making it even more unlikely.

A few seconds are not a small window at all, these two could make even thousands of moves possibly within that time, by their speed. The capturing of bubbles is a nearly instant process, Asuna has to avoid them with a minimum 2-meter distance, already being difficult when dozens of thousands of homeable circles fly around her. In a snap, making a 4-meter ball hitbox around her makes these bubbles stack on her within fragments of a singular second, combined with thousands of Laser Points (she would normally dodge) being guaranteed to hit her, all while Danger Sense doesn't alert her. That's what I mean by finding the right time window, using the mighty supercomputing Spagm has. It's a very strong wincoin.

Danger sense is more than just "Oh, this guy wants to kill you and he's gonna do this, so watch out". Using the novel scan i sent way back in this thread, Asuna's danger sense goes off when someone (Haruka) wants to get rid of her or is annoyed in a threatening way. More minor things like that can trigger it. If spagm intends to use it to help him land a hit on asuna, i don't find it far-fetched that asuna could detect that, and know somethings up.

I don't intent to say that at all. My claims go from Spagm being the most observational and emotion-less of all evolutions, while Plus-Droid or Gunnix would trigger definitely (one being a bit proud and the other just shaking with happiness from being able to shoot bullets everywhere and at everything, Spam is this mysterious lazy dude using the intelligence of Red Laser attacks to avoid additional thinking, the personality (described on the profile) if a good counter against danger-sense.

I meant status effects, as in, if another adventurer used a skill like "Nullify" or something to negate asuna's luck magic, asuna can't just block the air to stop it. Red lasers are evidently tangible energy projections, (Fired from spags own body and don't act on itself unconsciously like the red circles if im not mistaken, so danger sense will detect those ahead of time anyways) meaning asuna can block them, thus preventing the digi-shild from being useful, apart from absorbing his own EXP as asuna parrys it into the digi-shild, where it gets absorbed, which asuna is going to notice if we assume danger sense, again, didn't work. (Which it should ^)

Laser Circles are a sub-variant of Red Laser, it's the same power, that's why mentioned constantly how all Red Laser attacks spread this noise, heat, and radiation around. The reason for Laser Bubbles not inflicting age manip is that they don't touch, they expand from the Laser Circle nearby and seal their target in by seemingly instant speed. Laser Circles (not made to explode or seal into a bubble) are basically a "Red Laser power spheres" made to infinitely orbit in the area and speed amp, while their trajectory tries to hit evading Asuna with each spin they take.

Laser Points are being manifested not from Spagm's body, but with his mind in a place he wants the cut to happen. Although Asuna can evade them on their own, in combination with Digi-Shild they become beyond deadly, inflicting the quantum of age manip and insta-vaporization energy, together with numerous Laser Circles (not turning into Laser Bubbles to capture her, but turning into a star explosion once super near and landing at her). Its all said in the notable attacks/techniques of Spagmatron's profile.

That's why Im suggesting the Digi-Shild strategy to work as a surprise as the single dependant wincoin (even if Gunnix evolution gets restricted).

 

[Froggytron]

Yes, it's not that gunnix abilities themselves are restricted it's whether or not they can be used willy nilly

FU Androids are very innovative, using the hit of level 4 mile to evolve just one smaller arm of Gunnix could allow them to slowly manifest the tornados with bullets sent not draining the EXP, while not being Gunnixes, nor being able to spam the arsenal like crazy. I saw this in multiple serials and anime as well, using the higher power at least from the minimal version, if it's somehow banned due to not properly unlocking it yet or if ts simply unavailable. That is how he still could match and possibly overwhelm the ability-evolving Asuna in the late game, while not breaking the tourney rules and generally staying Spagm in all directions, and not wasting the EXP surpassing level 3 EXP meter as well.

 

[Rayfire]

A few seconds are not a small window at all, these two could make even thousands of moves possibly within that time, by their speed. The capturing of bubbles is a nearly instant process, Asuna has to avoid them with a minimum 2-meter distance, already being difficult when dozens of thousands of homeable circles fly around her. In a snap, making a 4-meter ball hitbox around her makes these bubbles stack on her within fragments of a singular second, combined with thousands of Laser Points (she would normally dodge) being guaranteed to hit her, all while Danger Sense doesn't alert her. That's what I mean by finding the right time window, using the mighty supercomputing Spagm has. It's a very strong wincoin.

I know lol, i was just putting it in a more understandable perspective. Asuna would be using riftways thousands of times over in that timeframe realistically as well, if not even more than spagms moves, considering that she can keep up a clear speedblitz edge (Way higher than 2.5x or 3x, which is generally conisdered speedblitz ranges) meaning the 2 meter distances wont really apply here, since asuna will always not only be be teleporting away, either intentionally or unintentionally, from the digi-shild, but asuna is too fast for that 2 meter distance, if it did apply, to even matter, since asuna will be faster than spags reaction time considering all the things she can do to stay faster, so it'll make trying to even put the digi-shild on her nigh-impossible, let alone trying to stop her from simply riftwaying out of it

I don't intent to say that at all. My claims go from Spagm being the most observational and emotion-less of all evolutions, while Plus-Droid or Gunnix would trigger definitely (one being a bit proud and the other just shaking with happiness from being able to shoot bullets everywhere and at everything, Spam is this mysterious lazy dude using the intelligence of Red Laser attacks to avoid additional thinking, the personality (described on the profile) if a good counter against danger-sense.

Well, spagm is still trying to use it to land a hit on asuna, which will set danger sense. It does say they are pretty stoic in comparison to other droids, But nothing is said about it being completely emotionless or mindless. Asuna will detect the red lasers and, most importantly, the digi-shild.

Laser Circles are a sub-variant of Red Laser, it's the same power, that's why mentioned constantly how all Red Laser attacks spread this noise, heat, and radiation around. The reason for Laser Bubbles not inflicting age manip is that they don't touch, they expand from the Laser Circle nearby and seal their target in by seemingly instant speed. Laser Circles (not made to explode or seal into a bubble) are basically a "Red Laser power spheres" made to infinitely orbit in the area and speed amp, while their trajectory tries to hit evading Asuna with each spin they take.

Laser Points are being manifested not from Spagm's body, but with his mind in a place he wants the cut to happen. Although Asuna can evade them on their own, in combination with Digi-Shild they become beyond deadly, inflicting the quantum of age manip and insta-vaporization energy, together with numerous Laser Circles (not turning into Laser Bubbles to capture her, but turning into a star explosion once super near and landing at her). Its all said in the notable attacks/techniques of Spagmatron's profile.

That's why Im suggesting the Digi-Shild strategy to work as a surprise as the single dependant wincoin (even if Gunnix evolution gets restricted).

As explained above, the digi-shild wouldn't be active long enough to land the hit ^ even if it did, Asuna has a speed edge as already explained, so seh is faster than spag's reaction speed as is, and you don't seem to deny the speed edge at all, especially factoring in asuna's playback, which can basically pause spag's adaptation if she spams it. Therefore, it's really hard for me to believe that spag could even keep up with her (Analytical prediction will help, but only up until asuna changes her strategy or movement pattern) since she'd be consistently so much faster whilst technically preventing spag from adapting due to time magic, so i doubt spag could even put the digi-shild on her accurately, let alone alone hit her with any red lasers or circles.

In his mind? Wouldn't that set off danger sense as well, since he's imagining something to attack asuna? And already explained why digi-shilds aren't really useable ^

The red circles/bubbles also won't hinder asuna much. There is nothing on spag's profile that says they expand/explode/seal faster than himself, so asuna would perceive them as if they were in slow motion, since, for the millionth time, she can always stay on top in terms of speed. It'd be kind of like this for asuna the moment she uses thunder magic amps, or uses time magic enough to adapt more and more:



(Imagine the rockets and bullets are red circles)

 

[Rayfire]

@Javenplayz253 Hehehe sonic reference ^

 

[Rayfire]

Also should add this as a wincon for asuna. Something like: "Becomes so much faster to the point that she has plenty of time in her perspective to make a skill via Power Creation that can bypass all of spagmatrons defences"

 

[Javenplayz253]

@Javenplayz253 Hehehe sonic reference ^

Asuna ain't sonic from stick shenanigans

 

[VeneficaAuthor]

Also should add this as a wincon for asuna. Something like: "Becomes so much faster to the point that she has plenty of time in her perspective to make a skill via Power Creation that can bypass all of spagmatrons defences"

Doesn't this seem a bit much? what makes this possible exactly?

 

[Rayfire]

Doesn't this seem a bit much? what makes this possible exactly?

Basically, Spagmatrons adaptation can make him stronger and faster, and asuna can do the same thing. The difference is, that asuna has instant speed amps through thunder magic, which puts her above spagmatron in speed by a pretty large amount. However, asuna can also pretty much hinder spagmatrons adaptation by frequently using time magic to reverse by 10 seconds. So asuna will be the one getting faster, whilst spagmatron won't, since, while they are quick at adapting, they can't do it instantly. This means that asuna can constantly have a speed edge

On In-character terms, While asuna typically won't use speed amps straight away, since spagmatron is sending a whole lot of danmaku at her, asuna will opt to take the edge in speed, as she did with kedron when she dealt with danmaku for the first time, so asuna will probably try this right off the bat

Spag can also make new abilities i think, but i don't think he'll have time to in this case.

 

[VeneficaAuthor]

Basically, Spagmatrons adaptation can make him stronger and faster, and asuna can do the same thing. The difference is, that asuna has instant speed amps through thunder magic, which puts her above spagmatron in speed by a pretty large amount. However, asuna can also pretty much hinder spagmatrons adaptation by frequently using time magic to reverse by 10 seconds. So asuna will be the one getting faster, whilst spagmatron won't, since, while they are quick at adapting, they can't do it instantly. This means that asuna can constantly have a speed edge

On In-character terms, While asuna typically won't use speed amps straight away, since spagmatron is sending a whole lot of danmaku at her, asuna will opt to take the edge in speed, as she did with kedron when she dealt with danmaku for the first time, so asuna will probably try this right off the bat

Spag can also make new abilities i think, but i don't think he'll have time to in this case.

I mean moreso creating an entirely new power able to get through Spagmatron's defense, which is really good if I do say so myself. How can she make a power on the fly able to bypass his immense series of reduction/deflection powers?

 

[Rayfire]

I mean moreso creating an entirely new power able to get through Spagmatron's defense, which is really good if I do say so myself. How can she make a power on the fly able to bypass his immense series of reduction/deflection powers?

Oh, well, asuna would need to know how it works first, so the fight would go on for a bit before that, but asuna will eventually try this. Personally, i don't know what she'd come up with, especially since she has higher battle iq than myself, but Asuna might take inspiration from some of her already existing skills, like luck magic, Or, More likely, from others, Such as Chidori, Who used nullify to counter asuna's luck magic when she tried (and failed) to use it to beat her in a board game. Shizu also used it in the latest chapter, so it's not too far-fetched asuna would try to use it herself to temporarily disable spag's defences and get some hits in. I didn't bring it up cause i wasn't sure if asuna would get the opportunity to do this, but since she can buy herself time now that i think about it, here we are.

If asuna did manage to learn nullify on the spot, she can use it to disable any singular thing spag is using for a short period, such as the red circles, but asuna will go for his defenses, more specifically, the digi-shield forcefield around him. He's still partially protected from asuna's blows with his armor and ranged damage reduction, but asuna would be able to make some sort of progress with this, even if it's just a dent at first.

 

[Rayfire]

^ And shizu used it to nullify (Haha get it?) Haruka's absolute defense forcefield before, which is pretty similair to the digi-shield, except it doesn't explode (Vol 1 Chapter 7)

 

[Froggytron]

The red circles/bubbles also won't hinder asuna much. There is nothing on spag's profile that says they expand/explode/seal faster than himself, so asuna would perceive them as if they were in slow motion, since, for the millionth time, she can always stay on top in terms of speed. It'd be kind of like this for asuna the moment she uses thunder magic amps, or uses time magic enough to adapt more and more:

• Danmaku star - Spagmatron starts spinning the top half of the body, shooting thousands of slow 7-B Red Laser Circles in every direction, in danmaku patterns. They charge for about 2 seconds at 7-A while bending to the sides and flying slowly, exploding in star-like explosions or capturing targeted objects into Laser Bubble shields. The star-like Red Laser explosion detonation speed varies with its wanted radius/key direction, becoming nearly instantaneous within several meters. Besides remote detonating, Spagamtron has many ways to set up their explosions.
  
  
• Sealing Laser Bubbles - Laser Circles can, instead of charging radiation and energy by distance, charge energy from the enemy attacks and enemies themselves, or further convert them into EXP being sent to Spagmatron. Depending on Spagamtron's command, the circle can with nearly instant stretching speed catch the targeted object at a very close distance, into Laser Bubbles. The Bubble is from within elastic and creates its own center of gravity. Gigantic objects can be captured as well, but all effects applying at individual cubic meters get weaker with Bubbles stretched to match them.

(Imagine the rockets and bullets are red circles)

Then again, the Didi-Shild coming is similar to the orange beam at the end

I think we keep going in circles in the latest replies, both having bottomless arguments for how Asuna dodges/speed amps and danger senses to not get hit, and how Spagm boosts his supercomputer-hallways mind to capture her with nearly instant layering combos of Danamku combined with guaranteed hit hit-box (he can further enlarge), where logic of his attacks bypasses danger sense. So only votes can decide at this point:

Asuna's strengths: dodging, danger sensing certain parts of the arsenal, speed amping, time leaps for more knowledge, power upgrades, luck support with a giant cooldown, immersing willpower

Asuna's theoretical wincoins: Eventually brute forcing Spagm's defensive using all her arsenal to do so, for an enormous time, less likely: landing zero prison, somehow blitzing Spagm in late game

Spagm's strengths: immerse defensive, supercomputer surpassing mind, enormous speed-accelerating danmaku, deadly effects with each singular attack landed, tricky methods fit against Asuna's protections, Gunnix arm evolve, able to turn some Asuna's attacks into his benefit

Spagm's theoretical wincoins: guaranteed hit hit-box for multi-one-shooting Asuna using all danmaku projectile damage and effects, less likely: draining Asuna's EXP, Death Manip with evolved arm/P.Evolution, Asuna getting one-shot by entering herself Spagm's defensives

 

[Froggytron]

Tried to as fairly possible summarize each's strengths and main possible wincoin (+ their other theoretical wincoins)

So yeah, time to vote gentlemen, both of us will be glad for any third-party input!

 

[Javenplayz253]

Tried to as fairly possible summarize each's strengths and main possible wincoin (+ their other theoretical wincoins)

So yeah, time to vote gentlemen, both of us will be glad for any third-party input!

Javenplayz fra

 

[Froggytron]

Javenplayz fra

​

 

[Rayfire]

I'll do my best to summarize everything froggy just said

Both are their fair share of arguments, so if we want to vote now, deciding a definitive winner isn't 100% possible. However, i think it's clear that asuna is doing the most here, especially once she uses power creation, she'll be the only one actually landing hits via most likely disabing the digi-shields, especially considering her clearly superior speed, and methods to maintain that.

Asuna, meanwhile, can avoid anything spag can throw at her, especially when she adapts, once again through either danger sense or her speed advantage. Spag will just keep spamming stuff, whilst asuna can keep going back in time to hinder his adaptation, and can create new skills on the fly to aid her in landing shots on spagmatron. even if it doesn't do much at first, Asuna is still doing all the heavy-lifting, all things considered

 

[Javenplayz253]

​

 

[Rayfire]

Javenplayz fra

Bro is about to solo both

 

[Javenplayz253]

Both have good arguments imma say
Incon fra