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Questioning Crossover Profiles Rule

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"We aren't keeping a character from being a certain tier, we're just preventing them from going on the site because having the same exact profile but with a different tier is meaningless."

Which is a needless waste of time and effort and is simply being overly and needlessly restrictive. The higher tier and scaling to a completely different cast.

"You could say the same of Crossover game/stories in general. "There's no harm/it can't be abused" doesn't mean having the same exact profile five times over with different statistics is any less redundant."

Redundant or not, we are an indexing site. If we end up with 70 Geralts who appeared in different series and is actually relevant to those plots, then we just have all 70 Geralts. Redundant or not, they still meet are standards as legitimate profiles.

"They should still meet our standards for crossover stories, and I don't see what makes them the exception to this rule personally. Crossover games/stories have all their characters canon to the story being told, look at the plot to Marvel vs. Capcom. But if the character is essentially the same, but with some abilities missing I don't see any use in having the profile. If they provide relevant feats to the story, sure, but I've yet to even see an example of that."

Aside from the fact that these are not crossover stories? Is all of Soul Calibur Vl a crossover stories because Geralt canonically meets and fights characters as an intergral part of the plot? Is SMT Nocturne a crossover story because Dante appears as a vital opponent and ally? Is Digimon Re:Digitze a crossover story because Lili from Tekken is a prominent character? Not it doesn't. At this point they are SC, SMT or Digimon characters, not crossover characters. There is a stark difference between MvC than say Soul Calibur Vl or SMT Nocturne. MvC is explicitly a crossover title when the games I mentioned are not, and simply have one character who originated from another series an extremely relevant player in their story. That alone should qualify them from a file.

I have otherwise yet to see a reason to deny them other than "they are the same character with a different tier and thus are redundant". If said character is canonical to the plot of another franchise, then they deserve a file for what they did in that franchise. I still side completely with Sera. We accepted things once already after a long discussion and are simply making things overcomplicated when the answer is simple.

Plot relevant characters are allowed and random guest characters or crossover game characters are not.
 
If the consensus is that "Guest characters that are canon" are okay, I'm fine if it saves everyone a headache so we can move on with this and get rid of the more problematic profiles.

I'm not a big fan of redundancy, and as I've said Geralt was quite literally (and still sort of is) a copy + paste profile of Canon Geralt, but I can see I have the minority opinion here.
 
To save time on this I'm fine with debating this later; I'd rather have this thread accomplish something first instead of devolving into walls of text debates.
 
For what it's worth, I also agree with Dragonmasterxyz. We are a character powers & statistics indexing Wiki, & Vs Battles are considered a lower priority, presumably, because, it doesn't matter so much what the statistics are, so long as that we have them documented.

Not documenting a notably different iteration of a notable character, in an officially published work, with notable powers/abilities, simply because that iteration is non-canonical seems silly to me.

I also feel that they should have a notable role in the story, difference in characterization, or a VAST difference in abilities. Of course, assuming we do that, do we put these crossover versions as keys, their own profiles, or maybe, if a character has enough crossover versions, make a "Character (Crossover versions)" or "Character (Non-canon versions)" so as to condense them.
 
I also think that Sera makes sense.

In addition, she makes a good point in that some staff member should probably find and link to important relevant defining discussions in notes sections for some of our policy pages, in order to avoid constant stagnant repetition.
 
Sera EX said:
Like in MK, there's the Tarkatan Xenomorph, who's actually implemented into MK's lore/setting by making it a Facehugger who latched onto a Tarkatan
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The rest of that quote seems fine, but to poke at that specific example, there's nothing in MK canon that has the Xenomorph in it, as they made no appearance in the story.

There's it's ending in the ladder, but we generally disregard those in terms of canonocity.
 
There's a reason why the page is called "Alternative Cano and Composite Profiles". Some crossovers are canon to one side but not the other, believe it or not.

So far, Mortal Kombat vs. DC is canon to Injustice, but not Mortal Kombat. This is evident in-game.

It's a shame that "being the same version of a character with a different tier" in a "non-canon setting" is such a controversy while composite profiles which are literally just "combining all canon versions of a character into one so they can have all their equipment and powers" is totally allowed and unquestioned, despite composites also being, by technicality at least, non-canon. Hell, combining all versions of a character into one is fan fictio, but I don't see anyone making threads saying "Composite Characters belong on FC/OC".

Both should be allowed, with some standards for good measure. I agree that the current standards revised by Matt and co. may need to be rewritten a bit to be made more clear, but those standards are perfectly fine in actual definition.
 
Sera EX said:
So far, Mortal Kombat vs. DC is canon to Injustice, but not Mortal Kombat. This is evident in-game.
Click to expand...
MK vs. DC is referenced once or twice in Injustice 2, I don't think it was ever confirmed as canon to Injustice, nor do I think that the interactions are sufficient evidence as they happen outside the story.

Sera EX said:
It's a shame that "being the same version of a character with a different tier" in a "non-canon setting" is such a controversy while composite profiles which are literally just "combining all canon versions of a character into one so they can have all their equipment and powers" is totally allowed and unquestioned, despite composites also being, by technicality at least, non-canon. Hell, combining all versions of a character into one is fan fictio, but I don't see anyone making threads saying "Composite Characters belong on FC/OC".
Click to expand...
We're far more selective with composites than we are with anything else in the site, and the exceptions should not define the rule, as it is said.

It's "being the same exact character in a non-canon setting" that is the issue. The different tiering isn't the issue itself as much as it is a symptom of the issue. As an indexing site we generally disregard non-canon events in stories; making a profile for every single one of them is redundant especially for characters with a massive abundance of them. Hence why being selective benefits the site.

To use your reference to composites though, we should definitely be just as selective in allowing these profiles as we do composites since they're so similar that they can be used in the same argument.
 
It's not non-canon, it's alternative canon.

I'm not referring to Ryu in Asura's Wrath because that's DLC fan-service. Unfortunately, I agree with removing files like that. I'm referring to Dante in Shin Megami Tensei because he is literally integrated into the story of Nocturne. SMT Dante is canon to SMT but not DMC, so Dante scales in SMT but DMC Dante (from DMC 2 onwards) is not treated as 2-A. That's fine and should be allowed. That shouldn't be controversial in any shape or form.

Likewise, Ultron-Sigma should be allowed but we don't have and shouldn't make 50 something pages for every crossover appearance that Thor makes, each with their own incompatible scaling.

The general rule of thumb for crossovers in the first place is that power-scaling gets thrown out the window. If Namco and Capcom want to have Dan one shot Devil Kazuya in a crossover game, they will do it. Of course that doesn't mean Dan scales.

This should not be a hot topic worth a highlight, it's been done to death in the past. Regression is a big issue the site has to endure these days.
 
Would you be able to link the previous thread on this and describe its conclusion?
 
Kep even outright says he seen the discussion numerous times. So I know I'm not the only one.
 
I mean, I've seen several profiles of the same character from the same franchise getting this.

Goku has a GT, DB Evolution, and Heroes profile, with differing scales from the canon counterpart. But since the message has already been said, I guess there's nothing else to do.
 
So a profile for Akuma from MVC isn't allowed but I profile for Cyber Akuma from MVC is allowed since he has a canonical reason for existing and has unique abilities regular Akuma doesn't?
 
Milly Rocking Bandit said:
I mean, I've seen several profiles of the same character from the same franchise getting this.

Goku has a GT, DB Evolution, and Heroes profile, with differing scales from the canon counterpart. But since the message has already been said, I guess there's nothing else to do.
Click to expand...
There's a substantial difference here.

Dragon Ball GT? Alternate Canon (is its own continuity) DB Evolution? Alternate Canon (is it's own continuity literally not even crossed with the animanga). Dragon Ball Heroes? Alternate Canon (is its own continuity). These canons don't conflict with each other.

It seems we need to have a literary lesson on what the word "canon" means. If something is it's own continuity, it obviously falls under the definition of being part of a canon. DBGT is it's own continuity. Just because it's not in continuity with DBS does not mean it's not part of the Dragon Ball Canon. Dragon Ball Canon is anything created by or endorsed by Akira Toriyama and Shueisha, that includes the anime created by Toei and the many video games. What separates the DB canon is continuity.

Non-Canon is stuff like fan-fiction (or "fanon"), or one-time special events, stuff that's not to be taken seriously or literally or not to be seen as part of the official canon. Goku in Street Fighter 2 is non-canon. Goku in DBH is alternate canon.
 
I personally think that the 8-A xenomorphs need to go since that crossover was terrible and nothing says that the predators are in the same verse as the xenomorphs
 
Genericstickman said:
So a profile for Akuma from MVC isn't allowed but I profile for Cyber Akuma from MVC is allowed since he has a canonical reason for existing and has unique abilities regular Akuma doesn't?
Click to expand...
 
@Sera Ruby Rose from Blazblue Cross Tag Battle is canon only to that game and not to RWBY itself, she features some unique abilities and a unique set of feats, and she is a massive part of the lore of the game itself, to the point that she is one of the four characters required to get the true ending of the game. Do you think she should be allowed?
 
Okay, because a lot of people think otherwise, its one of the main reasons this thread was made in the first place
 
@Weekly

Really? That's a double standard for someone to think that. Exclusive characters definitely can have files, nothing prevents them from having pages. Dark Kahn can have a page (if he doesn't already) for example, but not Raiden (Mortal Kombat vs. DC Universe) because unlike Dark Kahn, Raiden is literally his MK incarnation. All this does is prevent us from being over saturated with files for the same characters with little to no difference. As Ever said, there's a reason we don't have 50 pages for Mario. Canonicity is only an issue when people try to scale people from different continuities (like scaling Baby to DBS Goku because "GT takes place later in the timeline than Super. And yes people actually do that...like SSJ4Guy).

@Milly

Maybe it could work? But the problem is you'd have to redefine their powerscaling chains (if any) and use feats only in-game.
 
Anyway the conclusions here seem to be to keep the rules as they are, so should we close this?

@Sera

Probably in notes sections at the bottom of the pages.
 
Milly Rocking Bandit said:
They should scale to System XX, since that was the final fight.
Click to expand...
The profile needs to be redone, it directly scales from canon, Noel Mid-Godly, all PI abillities etc.
 
After re-watching Blazeblue Cross Tag Battle... I agree that there is substantial evidence to conclude that she is far different than her RWBY counterpart. The question however is whether or not to scale the main characters of BBCtB to Blazeblue canon feats... Or we somehow figure out what tier to put them at
 
She is really not that different

And Xtag characters should scale to their own feats since iirc we aren't supposed to scale to feats from the main canon
 
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