Questioning Crossover Profiles Rule

[Dragonmasterxyz]

Only Guest characters in SC that would be affected by this is like 2B, Link and Ezio. Geralt is literally essential to the plot and is canon to Soul Calibur Vl in every shape or form. Same for SMT Dante, Eltnum, Akatsuki, etc. Being essential to the canonical plotline of the home series should make them allowed. Hell, all the guest characters in SC have their own mini plotlines such as Kratos and Link. Even worse, Link from SCll is a completely unique Link. Let's not get ridiculous here. I see no reason for Dante or Geral especially to be deleted when they are canonical to those respective franchises (Geralt to Soul Calibur, has his own story mode and appears in other modes. Dante is explained above)

 

[WeeklyBattles]

@Dragon Then Ruby should be allowed

 

[Saikou_The_Lewd_King]

I repeat; Importance to the plot shouldn't matter. That's not why we're preventing all crossover versions in the first place. What maters is how different they are from their original versions.

If we cared about importance to the plot, we would have allowed stuff like Anime Goku looong ago.

 

[C2_of_Omegon]

Wait a minute...I thought there was a retcon in the DMC timeline. Like we thought that DMC2 was end but really the timeline is:

DMC3 - DMC - DMC2 - DMC4 - DMC5

 

[Tony_di_bugalu]

I don't really care about BBCTB and to me it doesn't matter if they scale to somenthing or not, I'm talking about Dante who actually scales to the characters in the game, has a similar backstory but is from another race, doesn't have devil trigger, so on and so far.

If and only if the RWBY characters scale to the BB/Persona/Undernight characters to what feats would they scale? AFAIK the game is no cannon for everybody and should not scale to the actual counterparts nor their OG abilities unless they used in the actual game, same for the AP feats.

 

[PrettyFearMachine]

Wait a minute...I thought there was a retcon in the DMC timeline. Like we thought that DMC2 was end but really the timeline is:
DMC3 - DMC - DMC2 - DMC4 - DMC5

Not sure if this is related to the topic at hand.

 

[Agnaa]

I'm not familiar with the games, but isn't the argument for SMT Dante staying that Dante is canon to SMT itself? Not just the crossover? Ruby wouldn't have that since her crossover game is non-canon to all series involved.

 

[Dragonmasterxyz]

I could careless about whether Ruby is allowed or not. There is a stark difference however. BBTAG in essense is a crossover game. Under Night, Soul Calibur and SMT are not crossover games. Hell, to add to that, Lili from Tekken is canonical to Digimon as she appears as a tamer in one of the games and is intergral to the plot. The characters who appear in those plots are canonical to said franchise. Characters who canonically appear in non-crossover games should be perfectly fine. The issue should crossover specific games like BBTAG, Smash, MvC, etc.

 

[WeeklyBattles]

@Tony They would scale to the feats present in the game itself

Aka 2-C

 

[C2_of_Omegon]

Wait a minute...I thought there was a retcon in the DMC timeline. Like we thought that DMC2 was end but really the timeline is:
DMC3 - DMC - DMC2 - DMC4 - DMC5

Not sure if this is related to the topic at hand.

I'm trying to figure out why peole keep using DMC2 Dante to compare SMT Dante. EDIT: I apologize for not being clear about that.

 

[Dragonmasterxyz]

Honestly, I say that the moment you are canonically important to the plot of another non-crossover game, you are allowed to have a file dedicated to that verse. However, crossover specific games are a different beast.

 

[Tony_di_bugalu]

Also, Dragon has a point, the game is a crossover game meant to be just that. If we allowed a bunch of crossover profiles then we should put like 60 more crossover profiles just for the Smash verse.

 

[WeeklyBattles]

BBxTag would literally just scale to the stuff in their own verse and nothing else, nothing from the other verses, and only have what is shown in game

 

[Genericstickman]

Honestly, I say that the moment you are canonically important to the plot of another non-crossover game, you are allowed to have a file dedicated to that verse. However, crossover specific games are a different beast.

So Tekken Akuma is fine then?

 

[Tony_di_bugalu]

Because SMT Dante is based on the DMC2 Dante, so for obvious reasons he is compared to the OG one.

 

[Sera_EX]

Can we please stop retreading the same damn topics over and over and over AND OVER again??

Matt already settled matters with Crossovers a while ago, but not THAT long ago for the standards to be questioned now. Jesus. The staff and community sat threw this long thread about this. Everyone was in agreement, so what the hell is this?

The deja vu /cyclic nonsense is just keeping this site stagnant because we keep going over the same crap in an endless cycle.

We need to start linking threads to pages about our standards so those who have the need to question them can at least go over the previous discussion. Spares us all the redundancy...

 

[Sera_EX]

Anyway, here's what a very reasonable veteran staff had to say about the matter:

"IMO crossover pages should only include original characters or characters tied into the story of the game in question. Like in MK, there's the Tarkatan Xenomorph, who's actually implemented into MK's lore/setting by making it a Facehugger who latched onto a Tarkatan. Or Geralt being part of SoulCalibur VI's story mode. It'd be better if the "important to the plot" section specifically excluded crossover fighting games."

 

[WeeklyBattles]

@Sera Okay but we're talking about the Crossover Fighting Games thing now

 

[Milly_Rocking_Bandit]

Frankly all I really care is if BBTAG profiles can be implimented. It'll only be non-canon counterparts, and Mori counted it as a possibility.

 

[Sera_EX]

By crossover fighting games I mean stuff like MvC, CvS, SF v Tekken, MK vs DC, etc. Not stuff like guest characters. Obviously if a guest character is part of the story, they scale in-universe. So yes, SMT Dante stays.

I think original characters like Ultron-Sigma are ok but obviously we wouldn't have a page for like...Thor (Marvel vs. Capcom).

 

[Milly_Rocking_Bandit]

I don't agree with that. But since it's already been discussed so much, it be what it is.

 

[DarkDragonMedeus]

I agree with Sera as well.

 

[Dragonmasterxyz]

To basically give some examples.

Jedah (MvC) - No

Geralt (SC) - Yes

Dante (SMT) - Yes

Lili (Digimon) - Yes

Hyde (BBTAG) - No

Eltnum (UNIB) - Yes

2B (SC) - No

Ezio (SC) - No

Link (SC) - No?.....Honestly, Original Timeline SC characters before SC lV are hard to pinpoint as Link has his very own story in game. But eh.

Anyone in Project X Zone - No

Bayonetta (SMT) - I dunno

 

[Sera_EX]

Jump Force is also a big no.

 

[Celestial_Pegasus]

Also agree with Sera.

 

[DMB_1]

Bayonetta (SMT) - I dunno

She has a side-story dedicated to her and Jeanne interacting and fighting against/alongside the protagonists throughout its course, as well as expanding a bit of the lore. And every two weeks to a month or so they add new side-stories, that never really contradict the main one. They also have their unique skills as demons.

That's really the most I can say about that. If you want, I can link you all of the story's cutscenes.

 

[Tony_di_bugalu]

Ye, Bayonetta could have her own profile just like Dante.

 

[Sera_EX]

Dx2 at the moment has rather ambiguous scaling anyway so let's not jump the gun, seriously.

 

[The_Causality]

Jump Force is also a big no.

don't remind me this disappointing game owo

 

[Dargoo_Faust]

So characters who are just the original version but dropped in a crossover, with little to no differences, shouldn't be allowed. This includes the Mortal Kombat DLC profiles, most Smash Bros. profiles, etc.

Couldn't agree with this more. There has been a recent spam of crossover characters because scaling in the crossover gives them a higher teir, and that's basically it.

Hardly any of them differ from the original as much as let's say, Red Son Superman from regular Supes.

 

[Dragonmasterxyz]

While I agree with most of Saikou's proposal, my issue lies when we actually have characters who in canon are relevant to the actual canonical plot of said series, i.e Geralt from SCVl or Dante from SMT.

 

[Dargoo_Faust]

While I agree with most of Saikou's proposal, my issue lies when we actually have characters who in canon are relevant to the actual canonical plot of said series

I mean, us excluding them from the wiki doesn't make them stop being relevent to the plot. That's a seperate issue then them basically being the same character in the crossover and the profile being a Copy + Paste of the original profile (Geralt was literally this before I had to CRT out some abilities) with a different tier.

 

[Wokistan]

Plot relevant people can be relevant for scaling, resistances, etc. I think that those are fine, even if they're someone else, but mere guest fighters in random fighting games and stuff that are just sorta there are extraneous.

 

[WeeklyBattles]

@Wok And what of crossover games where the main characters are extremely relevant to the plot?

 

[Wokistan]

I have no idea, I don't even know crossover verses besides smash. Apparently Dante is.

 

[Dargoo_Faust]

Plot relevant people can be relevant for scaling, resistances, etc.

And if they aren't?

I'm rather sure characters like, as Dragon mentioned, Geralt and Dante, don't have feats that define the tier of other characters or abilities that give other characters resistances.

Even then, in the case of resistances, you really don't need a profile to link to for where they came from.

Actually, I'd like an example of a crossover character that is just a copy + paste of the original that gives feats that are relevent to other characters in the verse to begin with, I've never heard of this before.

 

[WeeklyBattles]

@Dargoo Anyone from Blazblue Cross Tag Battle

 

[Andytrenom]

Not much to say that hasn't already been said. I would agree with allowing profiles when the character is an integral part of a non crossover story, and a significant departure from the source material in crossover stories.

 

[Dragonmasterxyz]

I mean, even if we just end up with other characters simply having higher tiers, I truly see no issue with it. If they are apart of the story then they are eligible to get a file. If not, then they don't get a file. I don't see us keeping this character from being this tier via being canon in this story as something we need to do. It causes no harm and really can't be abused as we specify that they have to be canon to the story in a similar vein to Geralt or Dante. Characters like 2B from SCVl are not allowed obviously, but if we have characters who originate from other franchises, but have a relevant appearance in another game, then they are judged by the abilities they have in that game and the stats they have in that game alone (unless there is some species or lore specific abilities they must have). However, we need to specify that we mean canon and relevant to a NON-CROSSOVER story.

 

[Dargoo_Faust]

I don't see us keeping this character from being this tier via being canon in this story as something we need to do.

We aren't keeping a character from being a certain tier, we're just preventing them from going on the site because having the same exact profile but with a different tier is meaningless.

It causes no harm and really can't be abused as we specify that they have to be canon to the story in a similar vein to Geralt or Dante.

You could say the same of Crossover game/stories in general. "There's no harm/it can't be abused" doesn't mean having the same exact profile five times over with different statistics is any less redundant.

Characters like 2B from SCVl are not allowed obviously, but if we have characters who originate from other franchises, but have a relevant appearance in another game, then they are judged by the abilities they have in that game and the stats they have in that game alone (unless there is some species or lore specific abilities they must have). However, we need to specify that we mean canon and relevant to a NON-CROSSOVER story.

They should still meet our standards for crossover stories, and I don't see what makes them the exception to this rule personally. Crossover games/stories have all their characters canon to the story being told, look at the plot to Marvel vs. Capcom. But if the character is essentially the same, but with some abilities missing I don't see any use in having the profile. If they provide relevant feats to the story, sure, but I've yet to even see an example of that.