Question about the tiers of the PMMM God Tiers

[GalaxianAegis]

So I was looking at the pages for Homura Akemi and Madoka Kaname and I was wondering why they aren't considered High 2-A here.

From what we understand here, the conceptual space that Madoka in habits as the Law of Cycles exists outside of the infinite multiverse to a point where she can see every single universe in the multiverse from a higher perspective.

From the Wraith Arc, we also know she exists outside of the old infinite multiverse as well which is the place where UGK is locked up.

Now compared to a being like Chronos (Saint Seiya) from Saint Seiya that I believe is also a valid High 2-A being, it looks to me like they would qualify for that tier on the surface given the justifications that Chronos has.

Is there a reason something like this hasn't been taken into consideration? I'd appreciate a discussion on the topic.

 

[Saikou_The_Lewd_King]

Existing outside space-time and seeing individual universes from a higher perspective isn't High 2-A. Chronos outright transcends all of space-time and Tier 2 people.

 

[Homu_Sweet_Homu]

^What the King of Lewd said.

 

[GalaxianAegis]

How are Madoka and Homura not transcendent though? What's the real difference between the two?

 

[Kaltias]

Yeah pretty much. Madoka exists in a higher plane compared to the multiverse but it's more just being abstract, because in PMMM concepts exist above the multiverse (kinda like Plato's forms, but not 1-A)

Is it High 2-A? Could be. But it isn't with the informations that we have right now.

 

[Saikou_The_Lewd_King]

I could ask you the same: How are they transcendent? Existing outside of the multiverse isn't enough, so is seeing the universes from a higher perspective.

 

[Ack1]

Being omnipresent and "Existing outside space-time" is the same as existing in 1 temporal, 1 spatial, as well as the conventional 3 dimensional space which means they exist in 5-Dimensional space-time structure.

Some people just really don't want an upgrade, so any explanation would be pointless.

 

[Kaltias]

But it's not?

It's like saying that someone existing outside of the universe is Low 2-C.

The LoC encompasses the two multiverses, and that's what makes Madoka 2-A to begin with (That and soon she will scale from UKG).

Her "true self" existing in a higher plane of existence does't make it High 2-A, until we get statements about said plane of existence completely transcending all of space-time

 

[Ack1]

It's just impossible to be omnipresent and multiversal+ without being 5-D. Remove omnipresence ability then.

 

[Kaltias]

That's not true though.

You can be omnipresent througout the entirety of 4-D space-time, which is what Madoka does

 

[Ack1]

then she is not multiversal+ and should be downgraded to 2-C

4-D space time can't connect several multiverses

 

[Kaltias]

Except that the PMMM multiverse is 2-A?

 

[Ack1]

If they're omnipresent only in 4-D space time, they can't exist in infinite number of multiverses at the same time i.e. being omnipresent in 2-A.

2-A: Multiverse level+
This category is separated in the following manner:

• Multiverse level+: Characters who can destroy and/or create a countably infinite number of 4-dimensional universal space-time continuums. Take note that the universes are technically lined up along a 5-dimensional axis, but that their geometrical size still amounts to 0 within this scale.

So they are not omnipresent or they are omnipresent in 5-D, or there is no infinite number of multiverses.

So:

If you really don't want upgrade to high 2-A, degrade to 2-C or remove omnipresence

 

[Kaltias]

You aren't making any sense.

High 2-A is for geometrical sizes > 0.

Madoka's 5-D size is 0, because it's infinite 4-D.

You are saying that an infinite line can't be infinite without being a plane

 

[Ack1]

She CANNOT be infinite 4-D if she exists in infinite number of 4-D multiverses at the same time (ie being omnipresent).

THIS isn't making any sense.

It would make sense if every multiverse had their own different Madokami.

 

[Kaltias]

But she doesn't exist in an infinite number of multiverses?

She encompasses two multiverses, each one of them being composed by infinite universes

 

[Ack1]

then she is 2-C

 

[Kaltias]

Except that she isn't.

Because infinite universes are 2-A. Twice as many are still 2-A.

And omnipresence doesn't make her higher because it encompasses only those, it doesn't encompass any higher dimension

 

[Homu_Sweet_Homu]

This is fun to watch.

 

[Ack1]

Ok let's forget about universes or multiverses. 4D being simply can't exist in infinite ammount of different 4D spaces at the same time. There should be another 5th dimension where she should have access to them all. Otherwise it doesn't make any sense.

 

[Kaltias]

Except that they can? Because the 4-D size of Madoka is infinite while the 4-D size of an individual universe is not.

And she doesn't need any extra dimension because she encompasses those universes

 

[Ack1]

Who has ever said that universe can have finite 4-D size? Sorry for being rude, but you simply make up tjings our of your ass, because you don't want to correct the article (as i said in my very first post here)

 

[Kaltias]

Uh, that's not how it works.

I don't have to prove that the universe is finite, you have to prove that it's infinite.

And it is not relevant anyway.

An infinite number of universes is 2-A.

Heck you quoted the tiering system saying that the 5-D size of infinite universes is 0

 

[Ack1]

Spatial size(3-D) of any universe is infinite, it's a basic definition of it

Temporal (+1-D) size is unknown, ok let's make it to be finite

Madoka has infinite spatial size and temporal size (4-D)

Infinite temporal size is still NOT allowing to exist in infinite number of infinite spacial 3-D sizes.

It has to be additional (even finite) spatial size to be able to do it.

Zero 5-D size of infinite universes is not realted to a being who can exist in them all at the same time.

 

[Kaltias]

Infinite temporal size is still NOT allowing to exist in infinite number of infinite spacial 3-D sizes.

Which is why she exists in an infinite number of 4-D constructs, aka timelines.

Zero 5-D size of infinite universes is not realted to a being who can exist in them all at the same time.

It is

 

[Ack1]

Then timelines are a single universe with the same infinite spacial 3-D space but different temporal dimensions. You downgraded her to high 3-A now.

 

[Kaltias]

A single timeline is a single 4-D universe (and it constitutes Low 2-C).

Infinite timelines aren't a single universe, and they constitute 2-A

 

[Ack1]

Infinite 4-D size(if 4th is a temporal size) won't allow to exist in several infinite 3-D spaces(ie universes without temporal dimension) at the same time

Madoka has to be 4D with additioanal spacial size (NOT temporal size as 4th) to be omnipresent in timelines (if they are different universes as you say)

But she has exactly infinity temporal size in the show. Which means she is missing 1 spacial size or shoudn't have omnipresence.

 

[Homu_Sweet_Homu]

(-_-)

 

[Kisaragi_Megumi]

(-.-)

 

[Kaltias]

Which again, is why she exists in an infinite amount of 4-D places.

Except that she doesn't, she simply needs to be omnipresent on a 4-D scale.

 

[Ack1]

omnipresence in 4-D scale(if it's 3D space + 1D time) give you ability to be anywhere in 3-D space and anywhere in 1D time, but NOT in DIFFERENT 3-D spaces

please, can you understand now

 

[Homu_Sweet_Homu]

 

[Ack1]

yes it does

otherwise omnipresence ability automatically would mean outversal tier

 

[Kaltias]

>1-A Madoka

https://youtu.be/7kyF_Sz9WD8?t=235

 

[Homu_Sweet_Homu]

Kal, stop screwing around. This isn't funny anymore.

 

[Ack1]

you still didn't answer how omnipresence in spacial 3-D and temporal 1-D scale could give an ability to be omnipresent in multiverse

 

[Kaltias]

So, now that we are done with this nonsense, going back to the original topic of this thread, Madoka's higher plane is more akin to what is explained in the note 2 of the Outerverse page:

A transcendent reality such as a mental or spiritual realm are not to be considered as synonomous with the outerverse term. These realms are likely "side-by-side" with any dimensional reality still existing within dimensional space, just not within its normal space.

So it's just an indicator of her condition as an abstract concept rather than complete transcendence

 

[RKGenki]

Yeah, as much as I would like High 2-A or higher PMMM god tiers, there are not enough proof for it.

@Kal do you know if translations for the official guidebooks can be found somewhere? There might be something in them. On the Puella Magi wiki there are only 16 pages from the first that are translated, and there are 3 of them.

 

[Kaltias]

I dunno