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Puella Magi Verse High 1-B Upgrade

marosuke said:
Ok before this happens, Kyubey said この手紙は、四次元構造体の三次元切片にあたるようだね
Sounds like he acknowledges this letter/infinite hierarchy/regular tetrahedron as 4D structure.
or is he talking about other thing except these?
Click to expand...
The description of the regular tetrahedron as a higher dimension is pointed out by narration
 
Unqver said:
4078c3d03d59642a.jpg

The shadow formed a small regular tetrahedron in a regular tetrahedron. If you look at it well, you can see a small small tetrahedron.
Like a kaleidoscope, a hierarchy of many regular tetrahedra appears. In the regular tetrahedron, the regular tetrahedron is infinitely covered with a regular tetrahedron.
I realized that I was in a kaleidoscope.
Fall sense. Learn it. It becomes full of the uneasiness uneasiness that the foothold that supported me until now has disappeared suddenly.
Where does it fall? Into a regular tetrahedron. The infinite hierarchy continues to fall forever.
From the infinite point, a regular tetrahedron is generated and it goes away infinitely far away.
A regular tetrahedron grows from each point of my body. It must be infinitely small, and it becomes infinite.
Click to expand...



Here is why I disagree. Kyubey explained this is a three-dimensinal slice of a four-dimensinal structure.
It cant be helped people believed this without explaining about this. They only used page 34 for upgrade.
and you can find this scan on general discussion of PMMM.
This is getting old to me. I'll leave here.
 
marosuke said:



Here is why I disagree. Kyubey explained this is a three-dimensinal slice of a four-dimensinal structure.
It cant be helped people believed this without explaining about this. They only used page 34 for upgrade.
and you can find this scan on general discussion of PMMM.
This is getting old to me. I'll leave here.
Click to expand...

Alright, so if I'm understanding this right. The letter is a 3 dimensional slice of a four dimensional structure. We see this directly after it's turned into a tetrahedron when it casts a shadow when hit by light that are 3-d rather than 2-d. Inwardly we see them shrink infinitely in layers, and outside the letter formed into a tetrahedron we see even more layers manifest and these would be expanding in dimensionality as opposed to the layers inside which are shrinking. I really don't see an issue with this, it just means their universe is a higher dimensional structure. Type/Moon gets away with this all the time.
 
Leafbladie said:
Alright, so if I'm understanding this right. The letter is a 3 dimensional slice of a four dimensional structure. We see this directly after it's turned into a tetrahedron when it casts a shadow when hit by light that are 3-d rather than 2-d. Inwardly we see them shrink infinitely in layers, and outside the letter formed into a tetrahedron we see even more layers manifest and these would be expanding in dimensionality as opposed to the layers inside which are shrinking. I really don't see an issue with this, it just means their universe is a higher dimensional structure. Type/Moon gets away with this all the time.
Click to expand...
It is just essentially an instance of the author going far outside the scope of actual science and mathematical functions. Obviously the fourth dimension doesn't work like this in real life (Having infinitely many levels that dwarf eachother), so we aught to simply tier it how he describes it as opposed to hyperfixating on what it should be according to actual science.
 
ShivaShakti said:
It is just essentially an instance of the author going far outside the scope of actual science and mathematical functions. Obviously the fourth dimension doesn't work like this in real life (Having infinitely many levels that dwarf eachother), so we aught to simply tier it how he describes it as opposed to hyperfixating on what it should be according to actual science.
Click to expand...
I think perhaps the author had in their minds eye something similar to what a tesseract looks like:

 
I just wanted to say that the whole thing with the fourth dimension doesn't disqualify anything because the only argument is the name and there is a tier 1 verse on the wiki that does the same thing of supposedly having its hierarchy below the fourth dimension and this hierarchy being tier 1.
 
Lynieryz said:
I just wanted to say that the whole thing with the fourth dimension doesn't disqualify anything because the only argument is the name and there is a tier 1 verse on the wiki that does the same thing of supposedly having its hierarchy below the fourth dimension and this hierarchy being tier 1.
Click to expand...
Which verse is that?
 
Lynieryz said:
I just wanted to say that the whole thing with the fourth dimension doesn't disqualify anything because the only argument is the name and there is a tier 1 verse on the wiki that does the same thing of supposedly having its hierarchy below the fourth dimension and this hierarchy being tier 1.
Click to expand...
We've already answered that. It's not the same as in DC. The 4th dimension here (and the statement doesn't even say '4th dimension'. IT SAYS FOUR DIMENSIONAL) is not the name of the place, but the spatial axis it has. Even the entire statement shows this.

この手紙は、四次元構造体の三次元切片にあたるようだね

It looks like this letter is a three-dimensional slice of a four-dimensional structure.
Click to expand...
 
Last edited:
Benimōru said:
We've already answered that. It's not the same as in DC. The 4th dimension here (and the statement doesn't even say '4th dimension'. IT SAYS FOUR DIMENSIONAL) is not the name of the place, but the spatial axis it has. Even the entire statement shows this.
Click to expand...
You're trying to limit it to what science and mathematics says when the author's own vision of what a "4-D structure/time" is, does not match the actual definition that real life gives and vastly surpasses it in size in his own work.
 
Shadowbeast said:
You're trying to limit it to what science and mathematics says when the author's own vision of what a "4-D structure/time" does not match the actual definition of real life and vastly surpasses it in size in his work.
Click to expand...
I am not limiting anything in the message you replied to. I am just pointing out that your whataboutism is not relevant to the current topic.

+ I've already said what I have to say about the other point, so you need to re-think about which message you should respond to.
 
Last edited:
Uh well, whether the structure is 4D or 3D, I think it doesn't bear any weight in tiering was already a thing, what matters is if given structure as per how they have been described in said fiction, has sufficient information/scans to place them on the proposed tier or not. Author intended structures that are based of real life stuff can be influenced by his own perception of things or way he wants them to be rather than them being 1:1 with irl stuff. So we can move on from discussing this stuff any longer.
 
You guys are still trying to distort contexts and explanations that are not remotely related to what you are interpreting... Bruhhh just don't do that, man.

The situation here is not like the expression "4th dimension" with unknown axis and spatiality as in DC, where it directly refers to spatiality. 4 spatial dimensions.

And there's not even a hierarchy ascending from 4-D, there's just an infinite descent within 4-D and then an equal ascent.

The other thing is the "point" and I have already explain this here
 
Reiner04 said:
Uh well, whether the structure is 4D or 3D, I think it doesn't bear any weight in tiering was already a thing, what matters is if given structure as per how they have been described in said fiction, has sufficient information/scans to place them on the proposed tier or not. Author intended structures that are based of real life stuff can be influenced by his own perception of things or way he wants them to be rather than them being 1:1 with irl stuff. So we can move on from discussing this stuff any longer.
Click to expand...
I agree 1000%
 
Benimōru said:
We've already answered that. It's not the same as in DC. The 4th dimension here (and the statement doesn't even say '4th dimension'. IT SAYS FOUR DIMENSIONAL) is not the name of the place, but the spatial axis it has. Even the entire statement shows this.
Click to expand...
This is just a nominal fallacy; the author's entire explanation and definition goes against it, and your only argument is. "😳but but four dimensional"
 
Lynieryz said:
his is just a nominal fallacy; the author's entire explanation and definition goes against it, and your only argument is. "😳but but four dimensional"
Click to expand...
The same answer I gave to Shadow applies to you. I didn't even say in that message that what refutes the arguments in the OP is that it is called 4-dimensional. I only said that the example you gave is irrelevant in this case. So you don't need to straw man me and try to make yourself right.
 
Lynieryz said:
This is just a nominal fallacy; the author's entire explanation and definition goes against it, and your only argument is. "😳but but four dimensional"
Click to expand...
Lol, that's not the only case. What you call "infinite layers" go infinitely "down", then infinitely up at the same level.

In short, you infinitely bring something down and then infinitely bring it up at the same level. This doesn't even give you an infinite hierarchy, it just goes back to the old level.


The infinite hierarchy is infinitely dimensionally ascending all the time, but here there is a going down and even if there is an infinite going up, there is no QS.

And the other problem with all this is that it's happening within 4-D. To raise it when there is so much doubt, lack of statement and contradiction within the verse is the most unhealthy thing to do.
 
Shadowbeast said:
No, there is an ascending hierarchy that goes up instead of only descending to surround the entire tetrahedron, why do you try to ignore that to fit your headcannon?

"And outside, infinitely many more emanate outward to surround it"
Click to expand...
I don't know how many times I have responded to this in almost the entire 10 pages of discussion. Before this rise, there is an infinitely fall down. After this fall, there is a rise.

And no. I'm not putting my own interpretation on this. The verse is saying that within this 4-dimensional structure, first there is an infinite fall, and then at some points in Madoka's body, there is an infinite rise at this level. This repeats itself on the same level
 
Georredannea15 said:
You guys are still trying to distort contexts and explanations that are not remotely related to what you are interpreting... Bruhhh just don't do that, man.

The situation here is not like the expression "4th dimension" with unknown axis and spatiality as in DC, where it directly refers to spatiality. 4 spatial dimensions.

And there's not even a hierarchy ascending from 4-D, there's just an infinite descent within 4-D and then an equal ascent.

The other thing is the "point" and I have already explain this here
Click to expand...
agree to disagree
 
Benimōru said:
The same answer I gave to Shadow applies to you. I didn't even say in that message that what refutes the arguments in the OP is that it is called 4-dimensional. I only said that the example you gave is irrelevant in this case. So you don't need to straw man me and try to make yourself right.
Click to expand...
Straw You🤣? Tell me how ridiculous it is for you to claim that discussing about the only thing I've commented here and that you've responded to is a strawman?
 
Georredannea15 said:
Before this rise, there is an infinitely fall down. After this fall, there is a rise.
Click to expand...
Bruh, the upward hierarchy is outside the tetrahedron which contains the downard hierarchy. Your logic is flawed when the two hierarchies are not connected per se. Your logic is based only on the downard hierarchy that Kosane falls, what you're saying is actually the higher and lower layers that cause a singularity in your body when you come into contact with them. She was in a labyrinth where there were several layers and her body came into contact with lower and upper layers at the same time.
Georredannea15 said:
but here there is a going down and even if there is an infinite going up, there is no QS.
Click to expand...
Now you're ignoring the whole description, the Time Railord appears as a single dot in the lower layer and then expands to its true form as Kosane gets in contact with the higher layer, where the things on the lower layer on the perspective of a higher one appears as a simple dot.

Jesus dude, it's somenthing so simple...
 
Shadowbeast said:
Bruh, the upward hierarchy is outside the tetrahedron which contains the downard hierarchy. Your logic is flawed when the two hierarchies are not connected per se. Your logic is based only on the downard hierarchy that Kosane falls, what you're saying is actually the higher and lower layers that cause a singularity in your body when you come into contact with them. She was in a labyrinth where there were several layers and her body came into contact with lower and upper layers at the same time.
Click to expand...
Lmao where is this comment coming from? My blood is freez...

No statement makes reference to this lol.

Also my statement is not just based on "infinite decline". I guess you only consider what works for you.


If you pay more attention to my explanations, I state here that there is an "infinite fall first" then an "infinite rise".

If you drop something infinitely, but then you raise it infinitely from where it was, you are in fact returning it to the way it was, nothing has changed.

And yes, I have no idea how you ignore that it still happens spatially in 4-D
Shadowbeast said:
Now you're ignoring the whole description, the Time Railord appears as a single dot in the lower layer and then expands to its true form as Kosane gets in contact with the higher layer, where the things on the lower layer on the perspective of a higher one appears as a simple dot.

Jesus dude, it's somenthing so simple...
Click to expand...
LOL do you really think it's still like that??


The explanation says that the closer she gets to the dot from a distance, the bigger it gets and the louder the sound coming from inside it gets. (The funny thing is that none of the explanations say that the difference between the layers is like a dot. This is between she and the Tethatrons. And even that's not valid in terms of existence.)

There is a big difference between seeing a certain place as a point in terms of existence and seeing a point at a distance as a point, and when you get closer to it, the point gets bigger.

It's the same difference between a dot on a piece of paper and a star that you see as a dot from a distance, but it gets bigger and bigger as you get closer to it.


I also have another news for you, basically seeing something as a dot, bubble or line is not enough for a QS, in the same way being infinitely bigger than it is not enough for a QS. This has basically just arrived.
Well, depends on whether you can use the universes as measuring sticks for distances in the depiction or not.
Usually, you can not, because they are depicted as floating bubbles or lines or whatever which don't really depict proper size, and in that case I would say no to all of them. If you can use them in a way to measure the size of the 5D space to prove it's significantly large, then you could get somewhere. But... yeah, depicting 5D space in a way that conserves size is just pretty hard.
Click to expand...
In the entire 10-page discussion, I have presented all these arguments with the scans found in the verse. And I have quoted from the standards.

And still to be called "your own headcanon" is ridiculous. Yes, these are basically the arguments I presented along with the scans and I will not respond again.
 
Georredannea15 said:
Lmao where is this comment coming from? My blood is freez...

No statement makes reference to this lol.
Click to expand...
Bro... the downard hierarchy that you keep repeating that creates an infinite fall is inside the tetrahedron, the infinite layers that are created as being part of the hierarchy and heading downwards are still within the tetrahedron. The other hierarchy is at the same level as the original tetrahedron and repeats the process of the infinite layers to surround it. They don't throw it in your face but the downard hierarchy is inside the tetrahedron and generating infinite smaller layers inside it and the upward hierarchy is explicitly said to be outside of the tetahedron and creating infinite layers that lie at the same level as the original tetahedron to surround it.
Georredannea15 said:
Also my statement is not just based on "infinite decline". I guess you only consider what works for you.
Click to expand...
No, i'm just tired of having to repeat the same point over and over again for you, i have been already arguing with you over the same point for several pages...
Georredannea15 said:
If you pay more attention to my explanations, I state here that there is an "infinite fall first" then an "infinite rise".

If you drop something infinitely, but then you raise it infinitely from where it was, you are in fact returning it to the way it was, nothing has changed.
Click to expand...
Again you're just limiting it to the downard hierarchy inside the tetrahedron and what you're arguing occurs due to the singularity of being in contact with lower and upper layers at the same time in one hierarchy...
Georredannea15 said:
There is a big difference between seeing a certain place as a point in terms of existence and seeing a point at a distance as a point, and when you get closer to it, the point gets bigger.
Click to expand...
Cool... but when it's mentioned that this happened because she get close to the Time Railord? bro... Kosane was suffering from the singularity in the downard hierarchy due to her contact with the higher and lower layers at the same time and things are explicity explicitly said to be infinitesimally small in the lower layer and boundlessly large in the higher layer. Kosane didn't moved to get close the Time Railord, it simply appeared as a simple dot due to her interaction with a lower layer and then grew infinitely to its true form in the higher layer. She even says that she suddenly appeared in the Time Railord, this is not because she moved towards it but because the Time Railord was a single dot in the lower layer and then expanded to its true form in the higher layer. Like how lower and higher dimensions works.
Georredannea15 said:
I also have another news for you, basically seeing something as a dot, bubble or line is not enough for a QS, in the same way being infinitely bigger than it is not enough for a QS. This has basically just arrived.
Click to expand...
Agnaa said it does qualify... see his comments again and Ultima is going to evaluate the situation here too.
Georredannea15 said:
And still to be called "your own headcanon" is ridiculous. Yes, these are basically the arguments I presented along with the scans and I will not respond again.
Click to expand...
I'm getting tired of constantly debating the same thing with you again and again. So it's better to wait for further staff input to evaluate the situation here.
 
Shadowbeast said:
Bro... the downard hierarchy that you keep repeating that creates an infinite fall is inside the tetrahedron, the infinite layers that are created as being part of the hierarchy and heading downwards are still within the tetrahedron. The other hierarchy is at the same level as the original tetrahedron and repeats the process of the infinite layers to surround it. They don't throw it in your face but the downard hierarchy is inside the tetrahedron and generating infinite smaller layers inside it and the upward hierarchy is explicitly said to be outside of the tetahedron and creating infinite layers that lie at the same level as the original tetahedron to surround it.

No, i'm just tired of having to repeat the same point over and over again for you, i have been already arguing with you over the same point for several pages...

Again you're just limiting it to the downard hierarchy inside the tetrahedron and what you're arguing occurs due to the singularity of being in contact with lower and upper layers at the same time in one hierarchy...
Click to expand...
Another way to ignore that these are still happening within the 4D structure... And yes, don't think Tethatron is 4-D.
Cool... but when it's mentioned that this happened because she get close to the Time Railord? bro... Kosane was suffering from the singularity in the downard hierarchy due to her contact with the higher and lower layers at the same time and things are explicity explicitly said to be infinitesimally small in the lower layer and boundlessly large in the higher layer. Kosane didn't moved to get close the Time Railord, it simply appeared as a simple dot due to her interaction with a lower layer and then grew infinitely to its true form in the higher layer. She even says that she suddenly appeared in the Time Railord, this is not because she moved towards it but because the Time Railord was a single dot in the lower layer and then expanded to its true form in the higher layer. Like how lower and higher dimensions works.
Click to expand...
What is said for the dot statement is not really expressed in this context lol.

None of what was said about dot expressions refers to the difference between layers, it just means that from her perspective it looks like a dot, but as she gets closer it gets bigger. I don't know how many times I mentioned these

She also says "each of point is on my body" before this statement.


So it's still not the relationship between the layers, just the relationship between she and the Tethatron.

Still no reference for gaps between layers, and yes. Higher dimensions no longer work like that at the threshold of new standards. Basically, being infinitely larger than something or even seeing it as a point does not close this difference. That's the standarts
Shadowbeast said:
Agnaa said it does qualify... see his comments again and Ultima is going to evaluate the situation here too.
Click to expand...
Brother, I gave you quotes from the standards and the revision made there.
 
Georredannea15 said:
Well. If we are to accept this, then we will accept all statements in all series, even if they contradict... The situation coincides with this. Because this is the mechanism
Click to expand...
1) Slippery Slope
2) I will say it again, just cause fiction contradicts what is deemed as normal doesn't make it invalid under our system (ie bronze age superman screaming at like 10 billion decibels and not creating a black hole that dwarfs the universe many times over)
 
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