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@SD No they are based off the mana they use.
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Puella Magi General Discussion VIII: Why am I even still apart of this?
- Thread starter SomebodyData
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- #162
@Schnee Really? Strange considering your example literally says it uses her master as a source of energy.
Regardless, the reason the attack is so strong is that it derives its power from the grail, another source.
Regardless, the reason the attack is so strong is that it derives its power from the grail, another source.
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Yes, they take mana from their masters, just like magical girls take magic from their Soul Gems.
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As a source of energy? Yes. Just like the soul gem, the source of magic is irrelevant, the amount of magic used for the attack is.
Her main counterpart has the same AP with the same much stronger attack
Her main counterpart has the same AP with the same much stronger attack
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No, but it used to.SomebodyData said:
What I meant is, as long as Elly's AP = 0.5, saying that her dura shouldn't be that far off makes sense.
If with our new scaling it isn't close to the minimum possible dura anymore, that assumption becomes a lot more shaky.
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- #166
@Rebuble okay, glad that's been decided, but my point was the 6-C attack isn't (instead it comes from the grail which can provide virtually limitless amount of energy) and you guys still haven't shown that the stronger attacks = more stamina in Nasuverse.or that the 6-C attack is ranked on the same level as the 7-A attack.
@Schnee ^
@Kal hmm I see, let me check for more info to help support or go against that.
@Schnee ^
@Kal hmm I see, let me check for more info to help support or go against that.
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https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=6w3spf-7bag
Saber withers away after using too much mana, that's the ending of the route.
The 6C attack isn't ranked on the same level, hence why she isn't 6C in base.
Saber withers away after using too much mana, that's the ending of the route.
The 6C attack isn't ranked on the same level, hence why she isn't 6C in base.
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- #168
So she can't abuse the attack like you guys stated, she can still die from overuse, much likr Mami.
Mami's attack isn't rated differently, unlike Saber.
The first question I asked was for a correlation (stamina and ap) and the ultimate attack (tiro finale and Saber's) working despite of that, you instead showed that the attack was bound by the correlation.
The second question I worded wrong, it was supposed to be 'isn't' ranked, but that works, I guess thanks.
Mami's attack isn't rated differently, unlike Saber.
The first question I asked was for a correlation (stamina and ap) and the ultimate attack (tiro finale and Saber's) working despite of that, you instead showed that the attack was bound by the correlation.
The second question I worded wrong, it was supposed to be 'isn't' ranked, but that works, I guess thanks.
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Actually she can, just a number of times until she disapears
Similarly, if Mami uses her strongest attack repeatedly, she is going to be corrupted.
Mami's attack is bound by correlation, isn't that why you said it only uses up more stamina and said why Stamina and magic are tied together? The very episode explains it you said.
Similarly, if Mami uses her strongest attack repeatedly, she is going to be corrupted.
Mami's attack is bound by correlation, isn't that why you said it only uses up more stamina and said why Stamina and magic are tied together? The very episode explains it you said.
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- #170
Yeah, only like I mentioned with Kyoko or 4th timeline Madoka, using the strongest attack even once can almost completely corrupt you in PMMM. And, even if it is through repeated attacks, Mami's soul gem isn't even shown to be beginning to get corrupted after using it.
Yeah, that's the point. You're saying that its so strong that it can't scale to her normal stats, which would mean she should get significantly more corrupted from that alone than her normal attacks (Which she clearly isn't)
Yeah, that's the point. You're saying that its so strong that it can't scale to her normal stats, which would mean she should get significantly more corrupted from that alone than her normal attacks (Which she clearly isn't)
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That would mean she has a lot of stamina, not that it didn't corrupt her because its not that much stronger
See above
See above
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- #172
She has less stamina than either magical girl.
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Okay lemme put it better
You have 1000 points of stamina,
Bullet uses 1
Your strongest uses 100
The attack is far stronger but it still isn't going to do sever damage to your stamina
You have 1000 points of stamina,
Bullet uses 1
Your strongest uses 100
The attack is far stronger but it still isn't going to do sever damage to your stamina
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- #174
@Schnee Your strongest uses 900, at least from what was shown in PMMM, and even then, the strongest attacks in PMMM don't jump tiers.
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- #175
@Kal
https://wiki.puella-magi.net/Puella_Magi_Production_Note#Episode_4
^ Could help determine Elly in comparison to the tiering system, especially since most of the descriptions include how strong they are.
https://wiki.puella-magi.net/Puella_Magi_Production_Note#Episode_4
^ Could help determine Elly in comparison to the tiering system, especially since most of the descriptions include how strong they are.
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From what was shown by Kyoko and Madoka, yes Mami's stamina and magic work by the same mechanics but that does not mean her strongest attack should automatically be barely weaker then the rest of her attacksSomebodyData said:
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- #177
I'm not saying 'barely', I'm stating it's not enough to call it a tier jump.
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Which is because of how we do scaling on this site, Kyoko is Low End 7C and Madoka being 5A is kinda looked down onSomebodyData said:
This isn't to say that Kyoko's and Madoka's strongest attacks aren't hilariously stronger then their normal attacks
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- #179
Fourth timeline Madoka isn't 5-A and if you're saying the issue is the scaling rules then why would it change with Mami?
Also ignoring the fact that this isn't Mami's strongest attack like Scorpion Spear or whatever Madoka did to Nacht. If we go by Portable its actually tied with Unlimited Magic Bullet works, which she's actually used quite a few times (Just a large bunch of guns firing at the same time).
Also ignoring the fact that this isn't Mami's strongest attack like Scorpion Spear or whatever Madoka did to Nacht. If we go by Portable its actually tied with Unlimited Magic Bullet works, which she's actually used quite a few times (Just a large bunch of guns firing at the same time).
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I know she isn't 5A. I said she wasn't, "5A is kinda looked down upon" is me referring to us not making her jump Tiers.
It changes with Mami because her tier isn't even a quarter as wide. And the feat she scales to is one of her strongest attacks, unlike Kyoko or Madoka.
Besides, it's easy to assume a gigantic mortar is kinda much stronger then a rifle.
It changes with Mami because her tier isn't even a quarter as wide. And the feat she scales to is one of her strongest attacks, unlike Kyoko or Madoka.
Besides, it's easy to assume a gigantic mortar is kinda much stronger then a rifle.
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- #181
"Fourth timeline Madoka"
Which is still a tier jump, yeah. We can't just assume a tier jump without either canonical reasoning behind it or a wide scaling line, the first (strongest attack) is an assumption that every other example goes against and the other Mami doesn't have.
It's also easier to assume that a musket or a mortar is much weaker than a cruise missile, but look at Homura.
Which is still a tier jump, yeah. We can't just assume a tier jump without either canonical reasoning behind it or a wide scaling line, the first (strongest attack) is an assumption that every other example goes against and the other Mami doesn't have.
It's also easier to assume that a musket or a mortar is much weaker than a cruise missile, but look at Homura.
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The Homura example doesn't make sense, it's a completely different, immensely weaker character using an attack, if Mami used a cruise middle, it would absolutely be stronger then her muskets.
Ironically, Homura's cruise missles, like Tiro Finale, are much stronger then her normal attacks, yet she can use them a few times, so Homura actually supports my point.
For that same reason we can't assume an attack that's clearly much stronger, isn't that much stronger at all.
Ironically, Homura's cruise missles, like Tiro Finale, are much stronger then her normal attacks, yet she can use them a few times, so Homura actually supports my point.
For that same reason we can't assume an attack that's clearly much stronger, isn't that much stronger at all.
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Regardless, we're going in circles, waiting for more input is probably best
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- #184
The example was just trying to show the absurdity of saying that the gap is massive just because one is a firearm and the other a mortar in a verse with tier 7 pistols and baseball bats.
Interesting, because those weapons aren't even made by Homura, showing you really need to rewatch the series again. Although, ironically she does have a 'final' attack in Homura's Revenge (Spoiler alert, it would kill her like literally every other example I've shown).
The assumption is that its 'clearly much stronger', when the verse tells us otherwise in basically every way.
"Regardless, we're going in circles, waiting for more input is probably best"
Fine, I'll probably release a final say on my side later on with the evidence that hasn't been debunked or anything.
Interesting, because those weapons aren't even made by Homura, showing you really need to rewatch the series again. Although, ironically she does have a 'final' attack in Homura's Revenge (Spoiler alert, it would kill her like literally every other example I've shown).
The assumption is that its 'clearly much stronger', when the verse tells us otherwise in basically every way.
"Regardless, we're going in circles, waiting for more input is probably best"
Fine, I'll probably release a final say on my side later on with the evidence that hasn't been debunked or anything.
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Whelp, wanted to stop there
The Cruise Missles on the trucks that Homura stored in the River not being made by her are completely irrelevant, they are still ehnhanced by her magic after she touched them. I have watched the series, it's just an irrelevant detail
Tiro Finale is blatantly stronger, Mami's normal bullets don't cause a massive AoE or explosion.
"Showing you really need to rewatch the series again"
I have, watched it a second time not even a week ago, me disagreeing with it does not mean I haven't watched the series.
So I'll state this yet again, let's wait
The Cruise Missles on the trucks that Homura stored in the River not being made by her are completely irrelevant, they are still ehnhanced by her magic after she touched them. I have watched the series, it's just an irrelevant detail
Tiro Finale is blatantly stronger, Mami's normal bullets don't cause a massive AoE or explosion.
"Showing you really need to rewatch the series again"
I have, watched it a second time not even a week ago, me disagreeing with it does not mean I haven't watched the series.
So I'll state this yet again, let's wait
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- #186
If you wanted to stop there, then why did you continue arguing right before?...
"yet she can use them a few times" obvious implication here has to do with the stamina argument we had, hence why I pointed out there is a difference in stolen weapons and weapons made under her own magic. Figuratively apples and oranges, amping already tier 7 (if they were even amped, see below) weapons would obviously require less power than making a tier 7 explosion.
No they're not. Rewatch the battle or something, the carriers were under Homura's magic but the missiles themselves were normal.
"me disagreeing with it does not mean I haven't watched the series."
I said rewatch first of all, second of all, disagreeing with the stats is okay, saying stuff like Homura amped the cruise missiles isn't a debate though and what I was referring to.
Is this a strawman? I'm not arguing it's not stronger, I'm saying the gap isn't enough to jump an entire tier without evidence and that enough muskets can produce comparable results based on Portable (Showing the gap isn't massive). Ignoring, you know, the obvious AoE fallacy there.
"yet she can use them a few times" obvious implication here has to do with the stamina argument we had, hence why I pointed out there is a difference in stolen weapons and weapons made under her own magic. Figuratively apples and oranges, amping already tier 7 (if they were even amped, see below) weapons would obviously require less power than making a tier 7 explosion.
No they're not. Rewatch the battle or something, the carriers were under Homura's magic but the missiles themselves were normal.
"me disagreeing with it does not mean I haven't watched the series."
I said rewatch first of all, second of all, disagreeing with the stats is okay, saying stuff like Homura amped the cruise missiles isn't a debate though and what I was referring to.
Is this a strawman? I'm not arguing it's not stronger, I'm saying the gap isn't enough to jump an entire tier without evidence and that enough muskets can produce comparable results based on Portable (Showing the gap isn't massive). Ignoring, you know, the obvious AoE fallacy there.
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Because you continued it, and I really want to continue but I won't
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- #188
"If you wanted to stop there, then why did you continue arguing right before?..."
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I wanted to answer your points before deciding to stop.
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- #190
And I answered your's before stopping myself, so why continue the debate?
Here, I'll show you how its done, I'm gone.
Here, I'll show you how its done, I'm gone.
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https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hTTEmtLMv7Y (Last move)
In this version, it isn't a train (Well at least I only see the same cannon, could still be a train), though everything else (including pose lol) is the same.
And note, the official name is Bombardment.
In this version, it isn't a train (Well at least I only see the same cannon, could still be a train), though everything else (including pose lol) is the same.
And note, the official name is Bombardment.
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- #194
I'll make one soon, although I think I recalced this feat before, I'll check.
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- #196
Hmm I see, checking through the math something seems off tho, I'll probably check it again.
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- #197
Eh, it was a slight pixel thing, wouldn't change the result tho.
So Current Tiering System:
1: City-Block level (Scaling from Homura's durability, not saying this is the exact tier, just that if we don't have anything else to go off of...)
???: Town level (We need to find out where Elly ranks in regards to witches)
4.5: Large Town Level (Mami created a massive explosion in 'Rebellion')
6: Island level (Magia Record Madoka, however with the gap we're seeing, I'm starting to have doubts. Could be possible that she gained the karmic power from other timelines due to Alt. Homura appearing in Magia Record.)
Holy Mami, Amped Yachiyo, possibly Holy Alina, and Campanella: Small City level+ (Waiting on calcs)
Potential Help: PMMM Portable's version of Oktavia's barrier has a sky. Specifically very gray clouds (May be able to help to determine just how big it is). Would scale directly to Kyoko.
PMMM Portable's version of a witch (Don't know which one) has a city. Probably illusionary.
PMMM Portable's version of Candeloro's barrier has a sky. Specifically significantly dark clouds (Probably bigger than Oktavia's) Would scale only to Candeloro.
Itzli's barrier also has a sky. Looks vast but probably will be calced less than anything else. Would scale to 6 AP tiered characters.
Itzli looks like she has stratocumulus clouds.
Candeloro looks like she has nimbostratus clouds with altostratus background (Could just be grey background)
@Schnee you wanna debate about the Bombardment/Train scaling to Mami's normal stats while we wait for some of the stuff to get calced or translated? At this point, there really isn't much else to do. Although, I guess I can start working on a "Homura from Another Timeline" profile.
So Current Tiering System:
1: City-Block level (Scaling from Homura's durability, not saying this is the exact tier, just that if we don't have anything else to go off of...)
???: Town level (We need to find out where Elly ranks in regards to witches)
4.5: Large Town Level (Mami created a massive explosion in 'Rebellion')
6: Island level (Magia Record Madoka, however with the gap we're seeing, I'm starting to have doubts. Could be possible that she gained the karmic power from other timelines due to Alt. Homura appearing in Magia Record.)
Holy Mami, Amped Yachiyo, possibly Holy Alina, and Campanella: Small City level+ (Waiting on calcs)
Potential Help: PMMM Portable's version of Oktavia's barrier has a sky. Specifically very gray clouds (May be able to help to determine just how big it is). Would scale directly to Kyoko.
PMMM Portable's version of a witch (Don't know which one) has a city. Probably illusionary.
PMMM Portable's version of Candeloro's barrier has a sky. Specifically significantly dark clouds (Probably bigger than Oktavia's) Would scale only to Candeloro.
Itzli's barrier also has a sky. Looks vast but probably will be calced less than anything else. Would scale to 6 AP tiered characters.
Itzli looks like she has stratocumulus clouds.
Candeloro looks like she has nimbostratus clouds with altostratus background (Could just be grey background)
@Schnee you wanna debate about the Bombardment/Train scaling to Mami's normal stats while we wait for some of the stuff to get calced or translated? At this point, there really isn't much else to do. Although, I guess I can start working on a "Homura from Another Timeline" profile.
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So Mami becomes High 7-C(?)?
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- #199
Ye, unless you wanna continue arguing that she shouldn't scale to the attack.
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Well, considering the opposition (myself included), I'm uncertain. On the other hand, I don't think there is anything else to discuss, and we're past the point where we should just get the opinion of others.
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