Profiles for the Dark Knights and their scalings...

[C2_of_Omegon]

Hi, all. So we have several profiles for members of the Dark Knights of the Dark Multiverse from DC Comics (The Batman Who Laughs, The Drowned, & The Merciless). As such we still don't have any for The Devastator, The Murder Machine, The Dawnbreaker or the Red Death. I've decided to do something for at least one of those.

Here's my draft of a profile for the Devastator. I was hoping to get some feedback before I actually put it out on the site. Making any corrections or the like.

The profile is published but it's creation has lead to some other questions which pertain to making profiles for the rest of the Dark Knights not yet created and the prexisting ones. This had lead to more questions about the Post-Flashpoint version of the Justice League, whom the Dark Knights scale to.

 

[Antvasima]

The Devastator is supposed to be as powerful as Doomsday, and after DC Rebirth, the characters seem to be back at their Post-Crisis power levels, so 4-B is likely a more appropriate rating.

However, you can ask Matthew Schroeder, Sandman31, Azathoth the Abyssal Idiot, Hykuu, Shivansh Garg, KLOL506, and Nether nine to give input here as well.

 

[KLOL506]

I haven't read enough of Rebirth and was mostly waiting for Doomsday Clock, but yes, since this happens after Superman merges with his New 52 self and restores all 5-A characters to 4-B (also supported by Rebirth Orion blowing up a solar system), Devastator would undeniably be 4-B.

 

[KLOL506]

I should also note that New 52's 5-A characters should actually be 5-A+, given how the calcs for their reasoning almost reach Dwarf Star level (They top out at 14.72 ninatons, BTW, a mere 2 ninatons away from High 5-A)/

 

[C2_of_Omegon]

@Ant

Thank you for taking some to look what I have so far over. I've sent out some messages and will patiently await any responses.

@KLOL

Thanks for the feedback. I'll explain why I rated the Devastator the Tier that I did. See, with the whole Post-Flashpoint Superman merging with Post-Crisis Superman I was kind of unsure which version to use to justify the Devastator's Tier.

When I read over the comic in which they merge and it was Post-Flashpoint who took in Post-Crisis' essence, memories, etc. So I figured I'd use him, just to stay a little on the safe side.

This also brings something else up, an issue I realized when writing the profile for the Devastator: I only gave him the abilities he demonstrated of Doomsday. In the Devastator's origin, he says he infected himself with the Doomsday Virus, he said he'd engineered it. So, I took that as evidence that he may not be exactly like Doomsday and may not have all the capabilities. It also doesn't help that we don't have a profile for Post-Flashpoint Doomsday

However, I also learned that seemingly Doomsday of Post-Flashpoint, merged with his Post-Crisis self. I'll have to look into that.

But to bring things to a head, should I grant the Devastator all of Post-Crisis' abilities? It's honestly easy enough to justify. Also, if so, should we include Post-Flashpoint's version of them as well?

 

[C2_of_Omegon]

Ok, I've updated the Devastator to be Tier 4 and scaling to Post-Crisis Superman and his stats to reflect that.

The biggest thing here is just should we give him all the abilities of Post-Crisis and Post-Flashpoint Doomsday?

 

[Antvasima]

I think that we do not have enough information about him to say for certain. Perhaps you could put "likely" in front of the Post-Crisis Doomsday's most characteristic abilities, i.e. reactive evolution, self-sustenance, Regenerationn, and such.

 

[C2_of_Omegon]

I think that we do not have enough information about him to say for certain. Perhaps you could put "likely" in front of the Post-Crisis Doomsday's most characteristic abilities, i.e. reactive evolution, self-sustenance, Regenerationn, and such.

This is what I was feeling as well. While logic dictates that he should have them, he never really demonstrated them or got the oppurtunity to do so. The fact that the strain of the Doomsday Virus he uses was engineered is another basis for possible differences.

So, for now, I'll add the 'Likely' and Doomsday's iconic abilities.

 

[C2_of_Omegon]

Well, I've made the additional changes. Fixed some minor errors I spotted.

As this point, I'm just waiting for some more input from the members I messaged and the community in general.

Thank you Ant and KLOL506 for everything so far.

 

[Antvasima]

Okay. No problem.

 

[C2_of_Omegon]

Bump

 

[WeeklyBattles]

Is someone going to make Red Death too?

 

[C2_of_Omegon]

Is someone going to make Red Death too?

Eventually, I would say so. I've been thinking about Murder Machine, Red Death and Dawnbreaker and who they would scale to, their abilities, etc. Outside of a few questions for each, the hardest thing is really just gathering up information and providing links to evidence for them.

Honestly, if I had to rank them:

Red Death would be the easiest profile to work on next. Mainly due to the fact that he primarily scales to Flash who is an unknown in most of his stats. Honestly, the biggest difference between the two would be Red Death's Age Manipulation/Withering Effect and the fact the he has his world's Barry in his head as a weakness. Really, anyone could make the profile easily in my opinion with a little research.

Murder Machine is next. His most consistent showings are against Cyborg and his abilities are very straight forward.

Finally Dawnbreaker. I just don't what he scales to really. We don't have a profile for Hal Jordan/Green Lantern Post-Flashpoint.

 

[C2_of_Omegon]

Well, I think I'm going to publish the profile now. I think that it's been put together well all things considered: makes senses, no contradictions or anything. As such, I'll put it out there. If there are any problems further CRTs can be done to correct it but I really don't see that being a major issue at this point.

Fingers crossed.

 

[Antvasima]

You can probably scale the Dark Knights from their post-Crisis counterparts.

 

[C2_of_Omegon]

You can probably scale the Dark Knights from their post-Crisis counterparts.

Wouldn't that cause a bit of confusion?

I mean, the Dark Knights fought the Post-Flashpoint versions of the Justice League. With Superman, it's easy scale Devastator to him since Post-Flashpoint and Post-Crisis Superman merged together. With the other members of the League members, are they in a similiar situation to Superman? Because right now, they are the current versions and are completely seperate from the Post-Crisis counterparts with their own feats, IIRC.

But you also said that Post-Flashpoint versions are on par with the Post-Crisis. Shouldn't the Flashpoints version be scaled up to their Post-Crisis version then, to avoid any mess or barrage of questions that will occur? It would just make the process of creating this profiles more straight forward and done deal in the long run.

 

[C2_of_Omegon]

As for the scalings for all the Dark Knights, if we say that they and the Post-Flashpoint Justice League scale to Post-Crisis, it would end up like this:

The Devastator- Scales to Superman (Post-Crisis) who merged with Superman (Post-Flashpoint) self. Very straight forward, I just scale him to Post-Crisis.

The Drowned & Aquama- If we scale them to Aquaman (Post-Crisis) they would go from 5-A to Unknow. So really, would we want to do that??? Or would we leave that alone since Flashpoint Aquaman actually has feats to put him at 5-A?

The Merciless & Wonder Woma: Scaling to Wonder Woman (Post-Crisis) would have them go from 5-A to 4-B. No real problems here.

The Batman Who Laughs & Batma: Both go from 9-A to 8-C, scaling to Batman (Post-Crisis). BWL also gets 4-B with weaponry (Scaling to Wonder Woman) and is still Unknow with prep time.

The Red Death & Flash: If we scale them to Flash (Barry Allen) (Post-Crisis) they'd be 4-B. However that's based on the Infinite Mass Punch, which has not been done yet in the Post-Flashpoint continuity. So, bit of a red flag there...

The Dawnbreaker: We don't have a profile for Green Lantern Hal Jordon for Post-Flashpoint. If we scale Dawnbreaker to Green Lantern (Hal Jordan) (Post-Crisis), he's 4-B.

The Murder Machine: 4-B I mean he's killed his universe's entire Justice League which included Superman, Wonder Woman, Green Lantern and Flash, who, if we're scaling them to Post-Crisis are all 4-B.

Ultimately, it seems to me that the Post-Flashpoint Justice League need to be updated first before I proceed with making anymore of the Dark Knights' profiles. Because, otherwise, it's just going to cause confusion down the line with people asking 'If the Dark Knights scale to Post-Crisis, why doesn't Post-Flashpoint (insert character here)?'

 

[C2_of_Omegon]

Bump

 

[Antvasima]

The Devastator should scale to Post-Crisis Superman, yes.

I don't think that we have any calculated feats for Aquaman, regardless of continuity, but he was treated as comparable to Wonder Woman during the Flashpoint event.

The Merciless should scale to Wonder Woman, who scales to Superman, yes.

I am unfamiliar with whether or not Batman's entire Post-Crisis history has been restored.

The Murder Machine is probably 4-B, yes. At least if he defeated the Justice League with raw power.

We do need to do something about the Post-Flaspoint profiles, yes. I have mentioned this several times previously, but it never seems to happen.

Here are some members that you can ask to comment here to help us out:

Matthew Schroeder, Sandman31, Azathoth the Abyssal Idiot, Ryukama, Hykuu, Shivansh Garg, Zensum, and Nether nine

 

[Ryukama]

I agree with Ant

 

[KLOL506]

New 52 Batman has repeatedly been shown to be vastly stronger, and the school explosion calc proves it. The final results were 0.2 tons away from High 8-C, and it badly damaged Batman's suit. He also has no problems fighting against those who can damage it. The calc was accepted, but it has still not yet been applied. No point in him scaling to Post-Crisis Bats, who has some decent Tier 8 feats himself (Hellbeast is working on it ATM).

 

[C2_of_Omegon]

Ok,

Bumping up the Flashpoint League to Post-Crisis levels, we can just say that they're comparable to Post-Crisis.

Going to draft up some reasonings/justifiaction:

Wonder Woman: 4-B (Should be comparable to her Post-Crisis incarnation), Ignores Durability with her sword. This is very straight forward and clean.

Flash: 4-B (Despite not performing the Infinite Mass Punch yet, he should be capable of it as he is comparable to his Post-Crisis self.) Luckily, this is also pretty straight forward.

Aquaman: 4-B (Has fought against Wonder Woman, Superman and Martian Manhunter). Should we leave out his fighting of Flashpoint Superman and Martian Manhunter? Him fighting with WW alone leaves him at 4-B or should we keep them for extra justification?

Batman: 8-C+ due to calc.

Cyborg: 4-B (Held his own against Aquaman and Superma)

Superman: 4-B? He merged with his Post-Crisis self.

If all of those check out and get update, it makes scaling the Dark Knights much easier.

 

[KLOL506]

Also, I think it would be wise to note which comic book issues feats like these happen (Makes research much easier).

 

[C2_of_Omegon]

Also, I think it would be wise to note which comic book issues feats like these happen (Makes research much easier).

I certainly agree that such things make it easier, but it would take a bit of time to find out which comics the feats originate from. I was simply working with what's already been put onto their pages and running with the notion of 'Comparable to their Post-Crisis selves'.

Simply justifying Wonder Woman as 4-B can justify Aquaman's and Cyborg's ratings. That's 3 members down right there.

Flash is as easy as Wonder Woman if we simply say he's comparable to his Post-Crisis self.

Batman has his own calc and feats to stand on.

Superman may not need to be changed. So there's that.

Aaaannndddd Green Lantern's got no Post-Flashpoint profile soooo...

 

[KLOL506]

No, what I meant was, generally when calcs are made, it makes it easier to find the feat if the issue or reference to the source material is found. For example, I still haven't found the issue of Spidey's Low 7-C feat.

The powerscaling thing really doesn't need context, IMHO, since it's ridiculously consistent at this point.

 

[C2_of_Omegon]

Oh...yeah competely agree. Without knowing what comic a feat comes from, you can't always evaulate the context of the situation, which is so important.

 

[Standuser081]

I don't think there should be a Post-Flashpoint Green Lantern profile since his history wasn't really rebooted in Flashpoint like Batman.

 

[C2_of_Omegon]

I don't think there should be a Post-Flashpoint Green Lantern profile since his history wasn't really rebooted in Flashpoint like Batman.

It really seems like that. Some charactes got their entire origin and early history changed, others not so much.

 

[Antvasima]

I think that it would be easiest to get rid of some of the outdated post-Flashpoint profiles (such as Superman and Wonder Woman), and rewrite others (such as Batman) to replace them with "Post-Rebirth" profiles instead.

 

[Antvasima]

Here are some members that you can ask to comment here to help us out:

Matthew Schroeder, Sandman31, Azathoth the Abyssal Idiot, Ryukama, Hykuu, Shivansh Garg, Zensum, and Nether nine

Have you asked all of them?

 

[C2_of_Omegon]

Here are some members that you can ask to comment here to help us out:

Matthew Schroeder, Sandman31, Azathoth the Abyssal Idiot, Ryukama, Hykuu, Shivansh Garg, Zensum, and Nether nine

Have you asked all of them?

I've contacted all of except Shivansh Garg, who admits to not being knoweldegable on DC.

 

[Antvasima]

Okay. Thanks.

 

[C2_of_Omegon]

I think that it would be easiest to get rid of some of the outdated post-Flashpoint profiles (such as Superman and Wonder Woman), and rewrite others (such as Batman) to replace them with "Post-Rebirth" profiles instead.

Agreed.

 

[Hykuu]

I agree with ant

also dawnbreaker should have a low 2-C key, since he destroyed the universe after fully absorbing the lantern battery.

I am going to elaborate more later.

 

[Antvasima]

So would somebody experienced be willing to write replacements for the post-Flashpoint profiles?

 

[C2_of_Omegon]

Well, I got a response from Zensum.

I heavily disagree with the scaling especially with the Post-Crisis incarnations being directly comparable to their Flash/Post-Flash/Rebirth counterparts other than Superman but have no time to argue a long post.

 

[KLOL506]

The feats heavily say otherwise, I'm afraid. They have their own 4-B feats now, with or without scaling to their Post-Crisis counterparts. Rebirth Orion is legit 4-B.

 

[Antvasima]

Can somebody collect a list of all our post-Flashpoint profiles?

 

[C2_of_Omegon]

Can somebody collect a list of all our post-Flashpoint profiles?

Superman (Post-Flashpoint)

Wonder Woman (Post-Flashpoint)

Aquaman (Post-Flashpoint)

Batman (Post-Flashpoint)

Flash (Post-Flashpoint)

Cyborg (Post-Flashpoint)

Swamp Thing (Post-Flashpoint)

Rao (Post-Flashpoint)

Superboy (Post-Flashpoint)

Supergirl (Post-Flashpoint)

Professor Zoom (Post-Flashpoint)

Black Alice (Post-Flashpoint)

Darkseid

Orio

Grail (DC Comics)

Super-Ma

H'el (Post-Flashpoint)

Godspeed (Post-Flashpoint)

The Batman Who Laughs

The Drowned

The Merciless

The Devastator

I believe I got all of them. (Turns out I missed a few.)

 

[KLOL506]

I think their 5-A feats should remain, and we should clarify that part as pre-Rebirth. The characters post-Rebirth are completely different.