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I think we should just merge the Post-Crisis and Post-Flashpoint profiles and give them 3 keys:
Pre-Flashpoint | Post-Flashpoint | Rebirth
Pre-Flashpoint | Post-Flashpoint | Rebirth
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Profiles for the Dark Knights and their scalings...
- Thread starter C2_of_Omegon
- Start date
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- #43
We should keep Post-Crisis seperate. They are different characters with, what, decades worth of history, feats and potrayals?
As for Post-Flashpoint and Rebirth we could just add onto the Post-Flashpoint profiles and rename them "Prime-Earth" or "New-52"? The profiles would have two keys:
Post-Flashpoint | Rebirth
It would make sense, especially since characters like Flashpoint Superman fused with his Post-Crisis self. It would allows to reflect how the characters where right after Flashpoint happened and them update them with the Rebirth material.
That way, we can add the new material feats without just getting rid of everything that came before. It would also lighten the workload and we wouldn't have to make some profiles from the ground up.
As for Post-Flashpoint and Rebirth we could just add onto the Post-Flashpoint profiles and rename them "Prime-Earth" or "New-52"? The profiles would have two keys:
Post-Flashpoint | Rebirth
It would make sense, especially since characters like Flashpoint Superman fused with his Post-Crisis self. It would allows to reflect how the characters where right after Flashpoint happened and them update them with the Rebirth material.
That way, we can add the new material feats without just getting rid of everything that came before. It would also lighten the workload and we wouldn't have to make some profiles from the ground up.
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Honestly, we could probably just change his Post-Flashpoint Avatar key. If we're actually going to just update the Post-Flashpoint profiles into the hypothetical Prime Earth or New 52 profiles, Darkseid could just have his key updated to reflect that. Any feats he performs could just be chalked up to the fact that his avatars can vary in power. We already do that with his Post-Crisis avatars.Antvasima said:
That reminds me, Orio has to also be included in the profiles list.
As for the staff inqut, I got a message from Azzy saying he'll look into the thread eventually. I contacted Matt eariler today and yesterday and I've never gotten a response. I will presume he's busy as I've seen him active on site.
So outside of contacting more staff or highlighting the thread, I don't know what else to do. I wil say this, that the consequences of this thread affect 17 already established profiles and 3 hypothetical/in progress profiles. I don't know if that's enough to warrant a highlight.
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A highlight (or rather a link in our official highlights thread, given that the highlights function was removed) seems to be a bad idea for this particular thread, as Marvel and DC are extremely hard to evaluate properly, due to being very inconsistent and dense to get into, and this would attract relatively uninformed people.
It is probably better to just inform all of the members that have shown to be reasonably knowledgeable about them in the past.
Here is my current list:
Matthew Schroeder, Sandman31, Azathoth the Abyssal Idiot, Hykuu, Shivansh Garg, KLOL506, Zensum, TheC2 (you), and Nether nine.
We particularly need the help of Matthew and Sandman31.
It is probably better to just inform all of the members that have shown to be reasonably knowledgeable about them in the past.
Here is my current list:
Matthew Schroeder, Sandman31, Azathoth the Abyssal Idiot, Hykuu, Shivansh Garg, KLOL506, Zensum, TheC2 (you), and Nether nine.
We particularly need the help of Matthew and Sandman31.
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Sure. Just to note, the original message may sound a tad narrow due to us progressing beyond where we at in the thread at that time.Antvasima said:
Thread:2533279
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Bump
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Azzy said he'd come by at somepoint, though he feels like he's not that knowledgable on the matter. Hykuu has said that they'd come back to talk in more detail as well. That was yesterday.
Zensum seems to be busy and doesn't really have time to come participate.
Sandman31 hasn't answered the last two I've messages I've left. Nether nine is in the same boat.
Matthew, he's been active on site but...hasn't answered me at all...lack of interest?
KLOL506 has been dropping in and out of the thread, so I'd assmume that he's just making time where he can.
Finally, Shivansh Garg, I haven't messaged them but that's because when I went to their wall, someone had asked for help with a DC thread and Garg said they weren't knowledgable and recommended speaking to Hykuu.
After a while, I feel like I'm pestering them.
Zensum seems to be busy and doesn't really have time to come participate.
Sandman31 hasn't answered the last two I've messages I've left. Nether nine is in the same boat.
Matthew, he's been active on site but...hasn't answered me at all...lack of interest?
KLOL506 has been dropping in and out of the thread, so I'd assmume that he's just making time where he can.
Finally, Shivansh Garg, I haven't messaged them but that's because when I went to their wall, someone had asked for help with a DC thread and Garg said they weren't knowledgable and recommended speaking to Hykuu.
After a while, I feel like I'm pestering them.
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We're updating the Post-Flashpoint profiles to incoporate the changes, feats, etc. that have happened since DC:Rebirth.Hykuu said:
Basically, the Multiverse has changed again and new things have happened with the characters but our profiles do not reflect it, currently.
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Most of the OP guys except for New 52 Superman- Upgrade to 4-B for being equals with Post-Crisis Superman who got his original power level back and fought against Rebirth Orion, who blew up a solar system which he mentions when he goes against some deathbots in the Rebirth continuity.
Post-Flashpoint Batman- Gets upgraded to 8-C+ via school explosion calc.
Post-Flashpoint Batman- Gets upgraded to 8-C+ via school explosion calc.
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" We're updating the Post-Flashpoint profiles to incoporate the changes, feats, etc. that have happened since DC:Rebirth. "
Ok, that seems logical.
" Most of the OP guys except for New 52 Superman- Upgrade to 4-B for being equals with Post-Crisis Superman who got his original power level back and fought against Rebirth Orion, who blew up a solar system which he mentions when he goes against some deathbots in the Rebirth continuity. "
They themselves have solar system feats of their own, but i guess this scaling also works. But like, the entire point of rebirth is every continuity being merged into one, pre crisis, post, etc. (not everyone was effected If i recall correctly)
also this
Newsrama: How would you describe what's happened now to Superman - is he truly a new person, or kind of a mix of what he was before?
Jurgens: In a way, the answer would be, "All of the above. I think of him as a new person. There are adventures in his past we haven't seen. Yet we selected some of the best possible aspects of his past to include, selecting from both the "New 52" Superman and pre-Flashpoint Superman, to make everything work. And, yes, to make that work right, we discarded some elements as well. Superman's past was messed with for a period of time. During that time, he was separated in two, living two distinctly different lives as two distinctly different characters. During "Reborn," those timelines were merged and rebuilt as one. There was essentially one Superman and one Lois. As for how and why his past was altered, that's a story that will unfold down the road.
Newsrama: Do they remember all of it? Part of it? What are their memories of what just happened?
Jurgens: They do not remember all of it. Superman knows that his reality was fractured for a time. He no longer remembers the details or every aspect of it. For him, it's somewhat like waking from a bad dream. For a brief second or two, you might remember it but the memory fades. All you know is that something has left you with an unsettled feeling. So shall it be for Superman
Ok, that seems logical.
" Most of the OP guys except for New 52 Superman- Upgrade to 4-B for being equals with Post-Crisis Superman who got his original power level back and fought against Rebirth Orion, who blew up a solar system which he mentions when he goes against some deathbots in the Rebirth continuity. "
They themselves have solar system feats of their own, but i guess this scaling also works. But like, the entire point of rebirth is every continuity being merged into one, pre crisis, post, etc. (not everyone was effected If i recall correctly)
also this
Newsrama: How would you describe what's happened now to Superman - is he truly a new person, or kind of a mix of what he was before?
Jurgens: In a way, the answer would be, "All of the above. I think of him as a new person. There are adventures in his past we haven't seen. Yet we selected some of the best possible aspects of his past to include, selecting from both the "New 52" Superman and pre-Flashpoint Superman, to make everything work. And, yes, to make that work right, we discarded some elements as well. Superman's past was messed with for a period of time. During that time, he was separated in two, living two distinctly different lives as two distinctly different characters. During "Reborn," those timelines were merged and rebuilt as one. There was essentially one Superman and one Lois. As for how and why his past was altered, that's a story that will unfold down the road.
Newsrama: Do they remember all of it? Part of it? What are their memories of what just happened?
Jurgens: They do not remember all of it. Superman knows that his reality was fractured for a time. He no longer remembers the details or every aspect of it. For him, it's somewhat like waking from a bad dream. For a brief second or two, you might remember it but the memory fades. All you know is that something has left you with an unsettled feeling. So shall it be for Superman
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I'm not crazy familiar with everything that has happened in Rebirth, but I'm a quick learner. We need to get everyone's various feats together. Who did what and who scales to them.
Superman: This is the easy one. Post-Flashpoint merged with Post-Crisis. Not only that but their histories did as well. As such, he can easily be said to be 4-B as he should have reclaimed his Post-Crisis power levels. In addition, when the two versions fused together, this caused a chain reaction that did this for everyone one, creating a reality made from Post-Crisis and Post-Flashpoint.
If we can accept that, we can reasonably scale a lot of characters back to him plus their own feats. That would be a good starting point, IMO.
IIRC, Green Lantern and Orion also fought someone who could destory Solar Systems.
Superman: This is the easy one. Post-Flashpoint merged with Post-Crisis. Not only that but their histories did as well. As such, he can easily be said to be 4-B as he should have reclaimed his Post-Crisis power levels. In addition, when the two versions fused together, this caused a chain reaction that did this for everyone one, creating a reality made from Post-Crisis and Post-Flashpoint.
If we can accept that, we can reasonably scale a lot of characters back to him plus their own feats. That would be a good starting point, IMO.
IIRC, Green Lantern and Orion also fought someone who could destory Solar Systems.
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Okay, so if we scale Green Lantern to Superman, things should go like this then:
(Note: I'm assmung that because Rebirth changed Superman's history that, this would reflect on Post-Flashpoint's feats and fights)
Superman: 4-B (Merged with his Post-Crisis self with their histories intertwined. Hence, he should be capable of the same feats.)
Green Lantern: 4-B (Fought Superman)
Wonder Woman: 4-B (Fought Superman and broken out of Green Lantern's constructs)
Aquaman: 4-B (Held his own against both Superman and Wonder Woman)
Supergirl: 4-B (has fought both Superman and Wonder Woman)
Darkseid: 4-B (Should be stronger than Superman)
Orion: 4-B (Should be superior to Wonder Woman)
Cyborg: 4-B (Fought Mammoth, who can contend with Superman and Aquaman)
Flash: 4-B (Broke Green Lantern's ring with the help of Wally West)
Zoom: 4-B (Scales to Flash)
Godspeed: 4-B (Scales to Flash)
Superboy: ???
Batman: 8-C+, 4-B with Hellbat (Harmed Darkseid)
Swamp Thing 4-B (Overpowered Superman and fought Wonder Woman. Far above Aquaman)
Grail: I don't believe we've seen her since Rebirth.
Super-Man: 4-B due to copying Superman's powers.
H'el: 4-B (Stronger than Superman)
Rao: 4-B (Harmed both Superman and Wonder Woman)
Black Alice: Unknown. Don't think there's anything to change here. At least, none that I know of...
If there's any issue, feel free to let me know.
(Note: I'm assmung that because Rebirth changed Superman's history that, this would reflect on Post-Flashpoint's feats and fights)
Superman: 4-B (Merged with his Post-Crisis self with their histories intertwined. Hence, he should be capable of the same feats.)
Green Lantern: 4-B (Fought Superman)
Wonder Woman: 4-B (Fought Superman and broken out of Green Lantern's constructs)
Aquaman: 4-B (Held his own against both Superman and Wonder Woman)
Supergirl: 4-B (has fought both Superman and Wonder Woman)
Darkseid: 4-B (Should be stronger than Superman)
Orion: 4-B (Should be superior to Wonder Woman)
Cyborg: 4-B (Fought Mammoth, who can contend with Superman and Aquaman)
Flash: 4-B (Broke Green Lantern's ring with the help of Wally West)
Zoom: 4-B (Scales to Flash)
Godspeed: 4-B (Scales to Flash)
Superboy: ???
Batman: 8-C+, 4-B with Hellbat (Harmed Darkseid)
Swamp Thing 4-B (Overpowered Superman and fought Wonder Woman. Far above Aquaman)
Grail: I don't believe we've seen her since Rebirth.
Super-Man: 4-B due to copying Superman's powers.
H'el: 4-B (Stronger than Superman)
Rao: 4-B (Harmed both Superman and Wonder Woman)
Black Alice: Unknown. Don't think there's anything to change here. At least, none that I know of...
If there's any issue, feel free to let me know.
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Oh yeah, the Dark Multiverse:
The Batman Who Laughs: 8-C+ physically (Even with Batman), 4-B with weapons (Knocked out Wonder Woman), Unknown with Prep
The Merciless: 4-B (Overpowered Wonder Woman)
The Drowned: 4-B (Can overpower Aquaman)
The Devastator: 4-B (Fought and killed his universe's Superman. Easily subdued main universe Superman)
The Batman Who Laughs: 8-C+ physically (Even with Batman), 4-B with weapons (Knocked out Wonder Woman), Unknown with Prep
The Merciless: 4-B (Overpowered Wonder Woman)
The Drowned: 4-B (Can overpower Aquaman)
The Devastator: 4-B (Fought and killed his universe's Superman. Easily subdued main universe Superman)
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Ok time for the hypotheticals that started this whole thing. This is just so once this all goes down and I create the rest of the Dark Multiverse profiles, everything will be clear and I can just create them without too many eyebrows raised:
The Murder Machine: 4-B (Fought, overpowered and killed his universe's entire Justice League. Can harm Cyborg)
The Red Death: 4-B (Fought and overpowered Flash)
The Dawnbreaker: 4-B (Can overpower Green Lantern. Killed the Guardians and multiple Green Lanterns of his universe.)
Hykuu, you said that Dawnbreaker destroyed his Universe but I after reading his origin again, I think that it was just his universe self-destructing. All the universes of the Dark Multiverse are created wrong and flawed to the core, they eventually deteroriate and die. That'd how Barbatos and BWL got the Dark Knights to join them, by promising that they could have the worlds of the actual Multiverse.
As for the update of the Post-Flashpoint profiles already established, we've thrown around some ideas but I'll try and sum them up, so that anyone who comes into the debate at this point can see what we're trying to do.
1. Rename Post-Flashpoint profiles. New 52 or Prime Earth, are good names for this.
2. Utilize a key for these profiles, so that we don't have to remake them from the ground up. Post-Flashpoint | Rebirth has been proposed.
3. Set up scaling and feat chain for the Rebirth key so everything makes sense. Also forms basis for any future character profiles.
4. Discuss any other concerns or objections.
The Murder Machine: 4-B (Fought, overpowered and killed his universe's entire Justice League. Can harm Cyborg)
The Red Death: 4-B (Fought and overpowered Flash)
The Dawnbreaker: 4-B (Can overpower Green Lantern. Killed the Guardians and multiple Green Lanterns of his universe.)
Hykuu, you said that Dawnbreaker destroyed his Universe but I after reading his origin again, I think that it was just his universe self-destructing. All the universes of the Dark Multiverse are created wrong and flawed to the core, they eventually deteroriate and die. That'd how Barbatos and BWL got the Dark Knights to join them, by promising that they could have the worlds of the actual Multiverse.
As for the update of the Post-Flashpoint profiles already established, we've thrown around some ideas but I'll try and sum them up, so that anyone who comes into the debate at this point can see what we're trying to do.
1. Rename Post-Flashpoint profiles. New 52 or Prime Earth, are good names for this.
2. Utilize a key for these profiles, so that we don't have to remake them from the ground up. Post-Flashpoint | Rebirth has been proposed.
3. Set up scaling and feat chain for the Rebirth key so everything makes sense. Also forms basis for any future character profiles.
4. Discuss any other concerns or objections.
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Before I go to bed I will leave this.
I am still working on the profiles for the Murder Machine, the Red Death and the Dawnbreaker, though I won't release any of them until the whole Post-Flashpoint/Rebirth fixing is done with, for the sake of simplicity.
That said, I'm almost done with the Murder Machine .
I am still working on the profiles for the Murder Machine, the Red Death and the Dawnbreaker, though I won't release any of them until the whole Post-Flashpoint/Rebirth fixing is done with, for the sake of simplicity.
That said, I'm almost done with the Murder Machine .
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I think that almost all of your suggestions seem to make sense, but am uncertain about Cyborg.
So, should we rewrite the post-Flashpoint profiles entirely, or just give them new Rebirth keys?
Btw: The Justice Society and Legion of Superheroes are still not restored in the Rebirth continuity, but likely will be after Doomsday Clock.
So, should we rewrite the post-Flashpoint profiles entirely, or just give them new Rebirth keys?
Btw: The Justice Society and Legion of Superheroes are still not restored in the Rebirth continuity, but likely will be after Doomsday Clock.
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"Hykuu, you said that Dawnbreaker destroyed his Universe but I after reading his origin again, I think that it was just his universe self-destructing. All the universes of the Dark Multiverse are created wrong and flawed to the core, they eventually deteroriate and die. That'd how Barbatos and BWL got the Dark Knights to join them, by promising that they could have the worlds of the actual Multiverse. '
U sure
I do remember a statement indicating he did it i think, I'll try and get it later
U sure
I do remember a statement indicating he did it i think, I'll try and get it later
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So are the Rebirth versions going to be 4-B? Can someone post a 4-B feat of Rebirth Superman? I know he has the same history as PC but I honestly think Rebirth Superman was portrayed nowhere as near as powerful as the PC supes.So I think maybe a likely 4-B may work if we dont have anything concrete to based 4-B on.
I'm also a little skeptical of the supposed 4-B feats from Rebirth as shown in the previous superman upgrade thread
Maybe I'm just being too careful/paranoid so I'll just go with what everyone agrees on here, I dont have the energy to enter a long argument.
I'm also a little skeptical of the supposed 4-B feats from Rebirth as shown in the previous superman upgrade thread
Maybe I'm just being too careful/paranoid so I'll just go with what everyone agrees on here, I dont have the energy to enter a long argument.
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" I'm also a little skeptical of the supposed 4-B feats from Rebirth as shown in the previous superman upgrade thread "
y
y
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The Justice Buster's microscopic red suns were agreed to be either 5-A or High 4-C
I dont think anyone should scale to the Golem destroying a solar system. Orion fought it yes but he didnt actually tank the energy discharge of the golem that destroyed the solar system. He escaped using his boom tube. The Nth Metal Golems were stomping everyone including Orion, the GLs and even Highfather and they were only able to defeat them by attacking their weak spots.
@Ant
Yes, but I dont think he's been portrayed as powerful as PC. I know that it was restored which is why I think maybe something like "likely 4-B" is better
I dont think anyone should scale to the Golem destroying a solar system. Orion fought it yes but he didnt actually tank the energy discharge of the golem that destroyed the solar system. He escaped using his boom tube. The Nth Metal Golems were stomping everyone including Orion, the GLs and even Highfather and they were only able to defeat them by attacking their weak spots.
@Ant
Yes, but I dont think he's been portrayed as powerful as PC. I know that it was restored which is why I think maybe something like "likely 4-B" is better
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So two questions then.
1. Would the rating be just 'Likely 4-B' or something akin to '5-A, Likely 4-B'?
2. How should we phrase the justification?
1. Would the rating be just 'Likely 4-B' or something akin to '5-A, Likely 4-B'?
2. How should we phrase the justification?
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1) Just "Likely 4-B", I think.
2) Maybe "(Most of the history of his Post-Crisis incarnation has been restored, which likely means a similar scale of power)" for the Superman (Post-Flashpoint) profile, and scaling the others to it?
2) Maybe "(Most of the history of his Post-Crisis incarnation has been restored, which likely means a similar scale of power)" for the Superman (Post-Flashpoint) profile, and scaling the others to it?
