Prime Moria key

[Crabwhale]

Alright so, Moria needs a prime key. Why you may ask? Well, simple really. 23 years ago, when he was 27 years old, he matched Kaido.

And if you don't believe the words of some random person, we also get direct story confirmation many hundreds of chapters later in the Wano flashback.

As far as we know, Moria's crew were all slaughtered but he still escaped alive. Wherever he's supposed to be in relation to Kaido, this is enough to classify for him to be comparable.

So that means 6-B attack potency, FTL speed and likely Class T, though I am admittedly iffy on the last one due to lack of physical showings of any kind. Could settle for a "possibly far higher" instead.

As for abilities, if you can see in the second picture he still possesses the Brick Bats (the shadow bat attack he creates with his Devil Fruit), meaning he still had the Kage Kage no Mi in his prime. So for abilities he'd simply get the same as his current self.

 

[KingTempest]

Nice job

His current weakness

Overconfident and lazy

Should be out tho, since he doesn't rely on zombies like he does in the recent

 

[Eminiteable]

Makes sense, I agree

 

[Crabwhale]

Nice job

His current weakness

Should be out tho, since he doesn't rely on zombies like he does in the recent

This is fair.

 

[DemonGodMitchAubin]

Yep, 20 years of depression makes someone on the Yonko's level become Enies Lobby Luffy level

Such a shame

 

[Crabwhale]

Moria had the alpha energy but the beta mindset.

 

[PsychoWarper]

Full disagree Moria tresh gg

Makes sense, I agree.

 

[ThanatosX]

It makes sense, I agree with the proposal.

 

[Damage3245]

Wherever he's supposed to be in relation to Kaido, this is enough to classify for him to be comparable.

Err, why?

We have absolutely no details on the fight.

For all we know Moria got horifically stomped like Luffy did when he first fought Kaido.

 

[KingTempest]

Err, why?

We have absolutely no details on the fight.

For all we know Moria got horifically stomped like Luffy did when he first fought Kaido.

Alright so, Moria needs a prime key. Why you may ask? Well, simple really. 23 years ago, when he was 27 years old, he matched Kaido.

 

[Damage3245]

So that's a pirate going off rumors with no actual first-hand knowledge of the battle.

Too little information to say he actually has Attack Potency that high.

 

[KingTempest]

So that's a pirate going off rumors with no actual first-hand knowledge of the battle.

Too little information to say he actually has Attack Potency that high.

The entire crew of that pirate had their shadows taken.

The only person who can take shadows is Moria.

So they were in direct contact with the person who fought Kaido.

I'm 100% sure they would've gotten this "matched Kaido" information from the dude who actually fought Kaido.

 

[Crabwhale]

Err, why?

We have absolutely no details on the fight.

For all we know Moria got horifically stomped like Luffy did when he first fought Kaido.

I'd say context in this case stops it from being that. We don't hear about him getting humbled badly. He doesn't have any significant injuries in the present (we've seen with Jack that the Beast Pirates don't **** around when it comes to maiming and goring). He's traumatized because his entire crew gets killed.

Equally I could argue that nothing says Moria didn't stop Kaido in his tracks, and only fled because his crew got slaughtered. Him getting destroyed and him putting up a fight are both valid. But the way it's presented makes me lean on this being a battle between peers rather than the other option.

 

[Damage3245]

I'm against scaling from an entirely off-screen fight.

Imagine if you heard a rumor of Luffy's first fight with Kaido; "Luffy knocked Kaido out of the sky. He made him revert back to human form and he knocked Kaido around all over the place."

While that is all technically true, it does not make Luffy to be Kaido's peer at all.

 

[KingTempest]

The entire crew of that pirate had their shadows taken.

The only person who can take shadows is Moria.

So they were in direct contact with the person who fought Kaido.

I'm 100% sure they would've gotten this "matched Kaido" information from the dude who actually fought Kaido.

This is not a rumor

 

[Crabwhale]

I'm against scaling from an entirely off-screen fight.

Imagine if you heard a rumor of Luffy's first fight with Kaido; "Luffy knocked Kaido out of the sky. He made him revert back to human form and he knocked Kaido around all over the place."

While that is all technically true, it does not make Luffy to be Kaido's peer at all.

A rumor that'd be squashed instantly by the knowledge that Luffy got one shot immediately afterward. If we're insinuating an outside observer here, there's no way they see the dragon fall but miss the giant rubber man getting knocked out so fast nobody can watch the move happen.

If this were the case for Moria we'd hear something like "Moria put up a good fight but ultimately was crushed". The text we have on it does not frame it as such.

And while I know we don't use the anime for scaling here, we see in that adaption that Moria and Kaido clash. So I'd wager the official interpretation of events isn't that far off what I'm saying. They WERE genuine rivals, before Moria got PTSD and ****** off to molest corpses for a few decades.

 

[Damage3245]

I'd consider a "Possibly" rating at most for Prime Moria's stats, but I still think the existence of a "Prime Moria" key is unnecessary.

 

[Nierre]

I agree with possibly

 

[KingTempest]

Ehh I'm still advocating for a full rating.

He canonically fought Kaido.
He's stated to have matched him by someone who has met Moria.
Kaido keeps his foes who he defeats and puts them in prison on their crew, Moria escaped to go steal Ryuma and Shusui.
Moria has no bad wounds.

See nothing truly hindering a full rating

 

[Crabwhale]

I would like to add it's pointed out also that Moria has actively gotten weaker due to inactivity thanks to his new over-reliance on undead minions.

 

[Damage3245]

I would like to add it's pointed out also that Moria has actively gotten weaker due to inactivity thanks to his new over-reliance on undead minions.

Noted. But just because Moria has gotten weaker, that isn't support for a 6-B rating.

 

[Crabwhale]

I'm not saying it's a boost to my argument on scaling him to Kaido. I'm saying it by itself facilitates a prime key, irrespective of the final rating we decide upon.

 

[KingTempest]

Again.

Ehh I'm still advocating for a full rating.

He canonically fought Kaido.
He's stated to have matched him by someone who has met Moria.
Kaido keeps his foes who he defeats and puts them in prison on their crew, Moria escaped to go steal Ryuma and Shusui.
Moria has no bad wounds.

See nothing truly hindering a full rating

What counter is there?

 

[Damage3245]

He canonically fought Kaido.

Simply fighting Kaido with no exact details isn't enough. If the statement was comparable to the description we got of the duel at Punk Hazard like, "They fought for days" then that'd be a different story.

He's stated to have matched him by someone who has met Moria.

Given that we don't know what this person learned from meeting Moria, this isn't a strong point.

It's speculation to say that Moria himself told this guy that he fought Kaido equally.

Kaido keeps his foes who he defeats and puts them in prison on their crew, Moria escaped to go steal Ryuma and Shusui.

Moria escaping doesn't mean he is equal to Kaido in stats. For all we know Kaido decided not to imprison Moria because he thought he was too weak to join his crew, and Moria escaped while Kaido was slaughtering his crewmembers.

Moria has no bad wounds.

Luffy has no bad wounds/scars from his encounter with Kaido either. Moria does have that long vertical scar on his chin, but we don't know whether he got that from his fight with Kaido or not.

 

[Metalballrun]

He's stated to have matched him by someone who has met Moria.

Isn't this a pretty weak evidence?
Them meeting Moria doesn't have any bearings with Moria scaling to Kaido.

It would be a strong evidence if they met Kaido instead and can attest that Prime Moria was on Kaido's level.

Just my take though.

 

[KingTempest]

Isn't this a pretty weak evidence?
Them meeting Moria doesn't have any bearings with Moria scaling to Kaido.

It would be a strong evidence if they met Kaido instead and can attest that Prime Moria was on Kaido's level.

Just my take though.

It means that the source is reliable.


A fight 20 years prior (in Wano) is closed off from the rest of the world. The only source he could've gotten that information from is Moria, which means he has a direct source from the guy who fought Kaido that he matched him.

Now it's reaching for reasons to deny this

 

[Nierre]

I'm neutral. I really do think there should be more stronger evidence, but I'm not totally against it.

 

[DemonGodMitchAubin]

I'm fine just making the 6-B a "Possibly"

Moria went head to head with Kaido and came out alive, that's clearly a feat of comparison, but since people have doubts, the possibly should be fine

 

[KingTempest]

Idky "once matched one of the four emperors" is up for discussion

 

[Crabwhale]

I'm fine just making the 6-B a "Possibly"

Moria went head to head with Kaido and came out alive, that's clearly a feat of comparison, but since people have doubts, the possibly should be fine

I'd settle for this as well, if there is to be no consensus.

 

[Axxtentacle]

I'm fine with a possibly. I do agree with Damage that the fighting part can be vague, and that the guy saying he matched Kaido isn't the most viable source, but I don't think his point should deny any possibility of scaling. That's why I support possibly.

 

[KingTempest]

and that the guy saying he matched Kaido isn't the most viable source

It means that the source is reliable.


A fight 20 years prior (in Wano) is closed off from the rest of the world. The only source he could've gotten that information from is Moria, which means he has a direct source from the guy who fought Kaido that he matched him.

 

[Axxtentacle]

Hm. Gonna assume he's just a random that hasn't had the chance to hear it from a Wano citizen or anything of the sort? Or that Moria wouldn't have a reason to gloat how strong he was?

 

[KingTempest]

Hm. Gonna assume he's just a random that hasn't had the chance to hear it from a Wano citizen or anything of the sort? Or that Moria wouldn't have a reason to gloat how strong he was?

Not anybody can go to Wano, so most likely he wouldn't go to Wano.

We see Moria loves talking about Kaido in Thriller Bark, so I'm 99% sure he told him the villain backstory and such

 

[Axxtentacle]

Well, if Moria is reliable (as in not cocky enough to lie and exaggerate), then I'd be fine with supporting it. If he's not fully reliable, then I'm still in support of a possibly.

 

[Crabwhale]

Moria doesn't seem to brag about it, from what we hear of it in Thriller Bark. Dude lost his entire crew.

 

[Axxtentacle]

If it's not something he brags about, then sure. My concerns are satisfied.

 

[Crabwhale]

Bump

 

[Damage3245]

I believe the current consensus is to add a Prime key but with Possibly ratings.

 

[Crabwhale]

I think we should put it to a vote between a possibly and a full rating. Both sides make a good argument.