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A bit late, but we have to account for the context in each individual series as depending on the options being used.
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Possible Mario Profile Split/Varies Rating
- Thread starter Armorchompy
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I haven't even finished it, nor did I fully support Option B, nor option A.
I don't see how that is "Painting" plus most people who support canon splits are people haven't played through each and every game in the series or found it's numerous connections.
I know what Option A you proposed is, but I disagree with it. Treating different series as different continuities is simply not the way to go because they are the same continuity. By that logic, Eficiente didn't agree with option A and proposed a different option. Besides, stop trying to force parties to agree with you Andy even pointed out you have a tendancy to be more blunt than necessary. At least other staff such as Maverick and ArmorChompy are legit trying to be open-minded and polite.
For the same reason we don't give certain superheroes varies between 10-B and 1-A. Even variables can still have outliers on each end, and if not, that just means I repeat. I voice distaste with both options, and I will showcase both options.
That makes no sense, because you already seem to have your own definition of Loose Canon and Dino had his. Loose Canon and "Floating Continuity" as you worded it are the same thing. It's one canon/continuity, but the exact order in which the events takes place is unknown.
All I did was repeat something said in the OP in which I agree with said secondary statement. We are definitely NOT going to say "Galaxy level anything" the standard assumption is that low end portrayals are just that, low end portrayals. I don't even get why you even quote/argue against me there.
I can't make any promises, but it should not be too long. I just hope my laptop doesn't crash again like it did this morning.
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I struggle to think anyone has given there's over 200
But I have played numerous Mario games and would consider myself fairly knowledgeable.
The mechanic there is different, a superhero Varies because of power systems, this is straight-up dubious/separate canons, so if one mario continuity is 9-C and one is 2-A, they'd have to be that.
Personally I just think Varies leaves out a bunch of useful information, effectively we'd just be tiering two or three continuities and nothing else which has little logic to it when we can be more thorough.
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Fair, but I said "Most" not all, I wasn't suggesting you didn't play it, but I don't think Zark or AKM have for example tbh; and the latter has self-admitted to it iirc.
Some maybe, but actually others but inconsistencies also are within a single canon, but different writers didn't portray cosmic entities as cosmic. Some differences yeah, but not all different. Still, sub-series isn't different continuity, just has different portrayal via being programmed/narrated differently.
Edit: I'll go over what games are canon and what ones aren't and show evidence for why the games are canon when I find the quality time. Hopefully tonight if I'm not worked out from night shift job.
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This untold subtext of "inconsistencies alone cannot make a character have several tiers" is going to waste us so much time if nobody touches it. You prove canon connections between games and then what, that does something? I didn't say that we needed to make clear as water that everything was still canon because it was something new, but because certain people would otherwise straw man the sh*t out of that factor by feeling like that's what we were going for.
By experience, I wouldn't be surprised if you posted some big list of canon connections and then a bunch of users who commented little, if at all all acted as if that was a massive game changer. If everything is canon and the different stats come from how the characters are used in the sub-series of the verse then look deeply into all evidence that everything is canon is redundant.
By experience, I wouldn't be surprised if you posted some big list of canon connections and then a bunch of users who commented little, if at all all acted as if that was a massive game changer. If everything is canon and the different stats come from how the characters are used in the sub-series of the verse then look deeply into all evidence that everything is canon is redundant.
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Did I state otherwise
Rq, don't you go around arguing verse consistency for comics despite not having read nearly the same amount of comics as say, myself? I have never attempted to lower the value of your opinion for that, in the slightest. Yet here you go around claiming Armor or Maverick haven't played all the games, without basis mind you, and that makes their opinions inherently lower?
I wouldn't mind this assertion anyways, if we literally didn't have a thread a few months back, the Superman staff thread, where people who hadn't read a single comic gave their votes while supporters got sidelined, despite many demonstratively had read thousands upon thousands of issues.
"Because I said so"
You're knocking a strawman here anyways.
No not exactly
Do you know how debates work, Medeus? You state your points on why you believe your points to be correct. If I was "forcing", I'd be bribing or using any other unfair fallacies. I'm not.
This is immensely accusatory, Andy's statement you just voided context of entire to act like I'm an inherently toxic individual to reduce the merit of my argument.
Either that or you're genuinely taking offense and warning me over nothing.
Armor literally got pseudo-reported on RVR, only difference here is I'm addressing you and he isn't.
And WHEN have I been rude? Did I swear at you? Did I insult your capabilities? Hell I didn't even speak negatively of your points. This in fact I do consider rude because you're straight up accusing me of stuff that didn't happen.
Don't repeat it, I'll not elaborate further to not cause derailment
Mario doesn't have a FRACTION of the canon material to compare to Marvel or DC, this analogy is flawed at its core.
We're not fighting on term definitions, whatever fits Mario's case more is what's relevant. So irrelevant.
...point out exact wording, both Discord or this thread, where I said Loose Canon has to deal with "order of events".
Yeah so you're cherrypicking scaling.
K, if it helps I tend to type out these riskily long messages on Discord first aince its drafting feature often times saves you from severe data loss.
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Honestly yeah, again, people are acting like my argument is reliant on Mario games not being canon, this is essentially knocking down a strawman.
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Also FYI DDM, this issue with comics cosmology did get addressed by a similiar concept cosmology rework ALREADY ACCEPTED for Marvel, the splitting and you even agreed to it, saying the "Proposal makes sense."
...like man, c'mon. I feel you're being abit unobjective here.
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The most recent stuff on the Power Stars + Galaxy thread concluded a while back, the feat's legit. We see the galaxies being created on-screen, starry skies and all, with galactic sized explosions. The entire premise of the game is that Mario is travelling from galaxy to galaxy to reach Bowser in the centre of the universe. Unless anything new is getting brought up, that stuff stands.
As for whether the cosmic tier feats are outliers, I haven't got a response for that yet. Though I will say that I don't like the option of splitting Mario characters based on what we perceive to be their different 'series' considering the multitude of references from one game to another. And if they are from the same series, then it wouldn't make sense for Mario to have distinct power levels in each series either - by Miyamoto's statement, they're the same characters 'playing' out different scenarios. I also feel it's disingenuous to call these characters composites when there are in-universe explanations as to how Mario is all one canon.
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The notion isn't that "they're not canon to each other", it is what Miyamoto says, they're playing out different scenarios, Mario's capabilities genuinely do depend on the type of scenario, or game series essentially, presented.
Their relevance for them being the exact same character and thus needing no filesplit plays out in the scenario we assume most of Mario is make believe "playing out a scenario" and begin dismissing context for certain feats as "imaginary crap of the day, doesn't fit", we don't do that in the slightest (mostly because it puts Mario canon in utter limbo), we take what is said in the games as literal and factual, and because of this we have certain of these "different scenarios" have Mario dying to lava and having issues with tier 7 shit, and other scenarios where Mario can have consistency at Tier 4/3. This even extends to P&A, there are games where Mario has to use a power-up for using fireballs, level up to use fireballs, have to learn using fireballs or just having fireballs by default.
Regarding the notion why we don't do this for other verses prominently, well 1. This kind of splitting would ONLY make in these verses with admitted flexible canon, while most verses save for classic cartoons try and tell a rigid canon story with none of these "scenario of the episode" stuff and 2. The applicable verses are ******* dead on wiki.
We have NEVER EXCLUSIVELY split files solely because of "separate canon", shounen verses can be seen, and even if you'd prefer to argue some arbitrary distinction of it being for "erasplit only", straight up, I'm perfectly fine with Option B which keeps the one Mario file but just slaps in a Varies, to account for the fact they don't intend for Mario to be 3-C for every breath of his, and that Mario's strength is dependent on the scenario the GAME DESIGNER wants to present.
People genuinely keep knocking down a strawman 50 times and this is the thread now. For the last time, crux of the argument isn't "This isn't canon, that isn't canon", if you latch onto beyond the buzzwords the argument, it is "they don't want to live and die by rigid storytelling, if they wanna make a tennis game they'll make a tennis game, and not have it scale to the time these characters blew up a galaxy, because that's the paly-scenario storytelling they wanna do"
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I overall said I was starting to lose interest in general, and only mentioned a lean, but you sounded insistent I should agree with option A.
I said "Some/Most" not all. Armor says he has, and Maverick I have seen him commented implying she has. Also, I am in no way, shape, or form saying that being unfamiliar with a verse makes their opinions lower. Quite the contrary to an extent. We need more neutral staff to evaluate if things meet criteria for things like energy source scaling or if that qualifies as a Tier 2 or above feat and what not.
Though, certain topics do require audiences to have at least some form of familiarity to judge concepts that are often too verse specific or case by case such as Outliers, PIS, and Game Mechanics. I have heard people go as far as to try to claim tier 6 to tier 5 feats were outliers for another series and failing to realize the simplistic linearity of that verse/protagonist in question in contrast to nonlinear verses like this one. Not disagreeing or belittling, just pointing out small facts.
You're the one who sounded like what you wanted to do was separate them into different canons when you messaged me on Discord, but maybe I misunderstood.
I've been hear for a long time, and debated on other platforms long before this. But this statement
Still sounds like a forced imperative command.
I'm not saying your a toxic person, or even a bad mod. But there has to be a limit to how many times staff members are allowed to be more abrasive than necessary. Also, I'm not going to say not to be passionate or blunt, but tone it down just a bit is what I meant.
That was more so Nero being harsh when Armor reported him, but by civil he apologized to me for "Making this thread at a bad/inconvenient timing" for me and said my input sounded important. Plus, he also apologized to Nero because he didn't mean to upset him. Though Nero also apologized so no hard feelings against him either.
You are still yelling at me, which still counts as being just a little bit rude. And sometimes talking in all caps and stuff like that. Plus you accused me of "Misrepresenting" and called my actions "Disingenuous" and admittedly, you're the one who said those actions are rude IYO.
Not my point + off topic, but still a similar premise.
I don't know how you feel about me screenshotting our Discord conversations, but this.
You: oi, suggestion for Mario, splitting the character by games, it removes so many antifeats and aligns more with how Miyamoto feels for the canon.
Me: Actually, Miyamoto just said it has a loose canon, Plus there are too many in game references that treats all games as one continuity
You: Do you know what the term loose canon implies?
Me: I know what it means. It doesn't mean "No continuity" it mean there is one, but the order in which the games takes place is unknown
You: No that's a floating continuity, not a loose canon, not interchangeable.
I was referring to that Discord conversation above. But I'll get to that later.
How is agreeing with a general policy about not assuming 3-C floor/lava/mooks/bullets/ect being cherry picky? That's just something universally agreed by staff that we don't assume high tiered units getting killed by cannon fodder hazards/threats is something we treat as legit anti-feats whether or not it's "PIS" or "Inconsistency" and not high tiered cannon fodder.
I used to type them in letter.txt files, and sometimes still paste the BB code in one when my laptop still works but have lost internet connection for example. But now I use the internal Sandbox feature that can be edited peace by peace.
Finally, profile splits for same characters from the same canon are usually done via era splits. Not some random side series that's technically still part of the main canon. It's like making a profile that just covers some random episodes in no particular order for each and profile split. We don't make a profile that mixes up some random early chapters and random recent chapters keys while also making another profile that covers random mid chapters. Unless we're certain about full chronological orders we don't split a bunch of keys or better yet making more profile pages if there are more than 6 keys to make.
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Also, I'm aware I'm the one who added that "Simply being inconsistent" isn't enough for a full variable tier. Because sometimes variable tiers should be overused to cancel out the existence of outliers and PIS. Which Eficiente question on the thread where it was being implemented iirc, but "At least Tier, possibly/likely Tier" isn't the same as a variable.
Also, that had different issues such as the writers not just potraying certain Beyonders differently or sometimes reboots happen, but Mario doesn't really have reboots/cosmology changes and is just plain ongoing in general and usually just tells simple stories outside the RPG games or Galaxy.
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Multiple people have claimed this and no one has been able to provide solid proof for the existence of this alleged feat.
Already addressed by Efi and Impress.
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This maybe?
Ignoring the lore and the like saying they can become planets, stars, or galaxies anyway, sometimes special comets as well.
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Because your point of support sound bizarre for Option B
Yet you irrelevantly bring up verse knowledge as a factor when referring to the opposition.
Who
You have, as I note.
I don't see a single comment I made worth toning down, to be frank.
Caps Lock is also for emphasis, I'm emphasizing words. You're defaulting to presumptions it's for yelling or aggression here
When have I said you're maliciously misrepresenting? And I will still stand by calling your proposal disingenuous, it is unnecessary omission to further a narrative.
Don't bring it up then.
Yeah so as seen, I explicitly said it's not about series of events like you keep claiming it is, I corrected you the very first time you said it and I'm correcting you now, the Discord log you brought up demonstrates this.
It isn't a general policy, only thing I can accept so far is "fall damage randomly harms people", which fair, gravity's magic in verses.
When have bullets EVER been non-valid antifeats?
Apparently not universal anymore.
Not when said cannon fodder is 99% the game and your "legitimate feats" are 1%
Show me the exactly worded rule that says this, so I can get it reappealed in a staff thread.
We can derive a set of canon groupings, that's enough.
Can you reiterate this? I'm abit confused by the wording
No reboots happened in Marvel, wrong point, and Mario's capabilities by demonstrative fact can vary according to game, he isn't doing 3-C feats every game in existence.
Wow just like Marvel, I should know considering I've got the sheer wiki pagecount of all issues read to demonstrate me having 3 to 4 thousand issues read with ease, and thus possess a "form of familiarity to judge concepts that are often too verse specific or case by case such as Outliers, PIS, and Guidelines to Comics Scaling"
DDM what percentage of Marvel Comics contain an abstract? I can show it's a lower percentage than the fraction you gave of Mario rn.
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For this, I have to say again that given Mario himself as a character is not constant like Toon characters, his power level depends on the plot of the game like Toon characters depend on the episode.
I say this as a Varies supporter as while in Galaxy he's consistently Tier 4/3 in Platformers he's barely Tier 8/7.
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Also if we gonna been fair on the Galaxy portion, it is not even under Mario’s power at all.
It was under the Lumas and other’s own power instead as again even in Galaxy, we clearly see that Mario isn’t doing that under his own power to begin with, but was pretty much helped especially with the lore pointing to it (Like are we seriously gonna overlook that plot point of him collecting things to begin with).
It was under the Lumas and other’s own power instead as again even in Galaxy, we clearly see that Mario isn’t doing that under his own power to begin with, but was pretty much helped especially with the lore pointing to it (Like are we seriously gonna overlook that plot point of him collecting things to begin with).
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I'll say this, Miyamoto's statement heavily supports the notion of splitting Mario according to different scenarios/game series. I still don't know how that statement was initially misunderstood as exactly opposite of what it means.
Kirbonic_Pikmin
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I was always confused by how this website interpreted Miyamoto's statement. It seems more like it would support splitting the franchise's profiles, or possibly even invalidate a lot of the series' feats via being.... plays and acts played out by the characters.
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Let's not bring speed into this, that is a separate can of worms and we're handling a couple already
Lou_change
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That's not what he said he said they were like a group of actors but also they were like cartoon characters put in different situations and a big family. I believe this is the interview
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Okay based on that statement and what i read so far ill say option A over B. Both options have merit but since it would create issues trying to scale bosses with one time appearances with scaling not even listed on marios profile (though i dont know if this would apply to fodder enemies too) option b would be more weird to work with unless you only had the main cast on the wiki and left it at that and deadass nuked profiles. Even if it is a bit weird treating it as the same universe at the same time.
Though i dont even mind mario just being outright changed to town level or something since mid end tier 7 and 8-C doesnt have a crazy difference to begin with (in comparison to anything higher at least).
Miyatmotos statement and why it is split should definitely be a note on his profile or the verse page though.
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They certainly do transform into cool lights in the sky lmao.
The reason I don't find the "They become planets, stars, and galaxies" statement to be a strong argument is twofold:
1. The game is already very liberal with the terminology of these objects, a big Yoshi head is referred to as a planet even.
2. The statement made is vague enough that Lumas becoming actual galaxies and stars could take vast amounts of time, which I'm inclined to believe when no Luma has ever transformed into anything remotely close to the size of a galaxy on-screen. Rosalina says at the end of the game that new born stars will grow up to become galaxies, which to me at least, implies the process of a long cycle rather than any Luma being able to transform into a real galaxy on demand. Which again, is something that is decillions of times greater than the rest of the series, giving me reason to doubt that these galaxies that Hungry Lumas transform into are real galaxies and not simply called that due to the level naming convention in the game.
Pikaman
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Yes, the “Galaxy level” feat we’ve seen from Lumas has no reason to be an exception to how hyperbolic Mario Galaxy is when describing its areas and levels
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Thats how i interpreted the statement tbh. Although if you took them becoming galaxies as actually forming real galaxies collectively, itd still be high 4-C or 4-B since theyd have to be able to create all the celestial bodies within.
But no ues so might not matter
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Agreed, but other than that, I am still neutral overall.
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For the record I don't think Option B is a bad option by any means, we may have to use a tabber-heavy P&A section sure, but it's abit more accurate and isn't reliant on wiki-assumption.
I don't mind arguments for it, but acting like it and Option A have an objective superiority over one another is kinda silly, it's just indexing aesthetics, you can't really "debunk" either, just make cases for them.
I don't mind arguments for it, but acting like it and Option A have an objective superiority over one another is kinda silly, it's just indexing aesthetics, you can't really "debunk" either, just make cases for them.
Pikaman
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Ironically, despite the fact this exact topic was indeed what the OP was about, it feels like more of an issue for another thread now imo
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Possibly, but it will not scale to every character.
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I've changed the title to fit what the thread is currently about
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Colonized.
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bump
what do we really need to do here? there is a decent amount of agreement for Option A.
what do we really need to do here? there is a decent amount of agreement for Option A.
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I was waiting to see if A opponents/B proponents had any further cases to make but if the discussion reached an impasse I think we should go ahead and apply the consensus.
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If were reaching conclusion soon im gonna just list everything so you guys can decide how you wanna compose the profiles later minus hotel mario because its already a profile (im not sure if this is gonna affect the mario cosmology itself and downgrade tier 2s n shit but dat 4 later)
Pinball... (kinda useless as a profile)
Mario Kart (probably another useless profile)
Dr. Mario (useless profile)
Mario Sports (Golf, Tennis. Mix, Strikers etc. etc.)
Mario and sonic olympics? (mayyyy be useless)
Wool/Yarn Yoshi games (would be a yoshi profile)
Super Mario Bros and Super Mario World
New Super Mario Bros + Super Mario Run (can probably be lumped in with above)
Super Mario Land
Super Mario RPG
Mario Party
Paper Mario and Mario and Luigi (crosses over with paper mario)
Luigi’s Mansion
Mario 64 and Sunshine (sunshine explicitely takes place after 64)
Mario Galaxy
Odyssey and Mario vs Donkey Kong (because of pauline, and maybe original donkey kong counts too?Where mario was getting obliterated by 5 meter falls
3D Land/World (could be lumped in with the 3 maybe 4 above, dunno about rabbids)
Mario + Rabbids
Mario Maker
Mario Kart (probably another useless profile)
Dr. Mario (useless profile)
Mario Sports (Golf, Tennis. Mix, Strikers etc. etc.)
Mario and sonic olympics? (mayyyy be useless)
Wool/Yarn Yoshi games (would be a yoshi profile)
Super Mario Bros and Super Mario World
New Super Mario Bros + Super Mario Run (can probably be lumped in with above)
Super Mario Land
Super Mario RPG
Mario Party
Paper Mario and Mario and Luigi (crosses over with paper mario)
Luigi’s Mansion
Mario 64 and Sunshine (sunshine explicitely takes place after 64)
Mario Galaxy
Odyssey and Mario vs Donkey Kong (because of pauline, and maybe original donkey kong counts too?
3D Land/World (could be lumped in with the 3 maybe 4 above, dunno about rabbids)
Mario + Rabbids
Mario Maker
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Cosmology should stay the same across all entries with the exception of Mario +Rabbids and Mario and Sonic as per crossover rules. As stated before, Option A is not splitting canon, simply separating the different subgroups of games for ease of indexing and more consistent scaling.
I'm not a big fan of splitting it into that many groups, I think splitting them up on the grounds of main series and spin-offs is far less arbitrary and more reader friendly, the series is inconsistent but it's not SO inconsistent that Super Mario Bros and New Super Mario Bros need to be separated.
I'm not a big fan of splitting it into that many groups, I think splitting them up on the grounds of main series and spin-offs is far less arbitrary and more reader friendly, the series is inconsistent but it's not SO inconsistent that Super Mario Bros and New Super Mario Bros need to be separated.
Pikaman
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I disagree with a splitting process as basic as Mainline | Spin-off 1 | Spin-off 2 etc, stuff like Super and New Super sure, but there are very clear differences in some of the Mainline games, lumping them all together is dumb and doesn’t solve the problems the split is meant to
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