Possible Mario Profile Split/Varies Rating

[Armorchompy]

Anyway, I'd like opinions on the list, mostly on whether

• Donkey Kong and DKC should be fused
• Wario Land should be considered part of mainline canon
• Yoshi's Island should be considered part of mainline canon

 

[Pikaman]

Anyway, I'd like opinions on the list, mostly on whether

• Donkey Kong and DKC should be fused
• Wario Land should be considered part of mainline canon
• Yoshi's Island should be considered part of mainline canon

Disagree
Agree
Agree

 

[Maverick_Zero_X]

Donkey Kong and DKC should be fused

Not sure.

• Wario Land should be considered part of mainline canon
• Yoshi's Island should be considered part of mainline canon

Agreed.

 

[Seol404]

Anyway, I'd like opinions on the list, mostly on whether

• Donkey Kong and DKC should be fused
• Wario Land should be considered part of mainline canon
• Yoshi's Island should be considered part of mainline canon

I'm fine with all of this

 

[Mariogoods]

Anyway, I'd like opinions on the list, mostly on whether

• Donkey Kong and DKC should be fused
• Wario Land should be considered part of mainline canon
• Yoshi's Island should be considered part of mainline canon

1] It seems reasonable. However, it should be noted that

CRANKY KONG I am the original Donkey Kong and, as such, command barrel loads of due respect from my proteges Junior (the Donkey Kong of this game) and Diddy.

But "Cranky Kong" here is also known as "Donkey Kong" by casuals, so if the result is fusing DK and DKC, this difference should be specifically noted and have a clear reference. Before reading that reference, I had believed that Donkey Kong in DK series and Donkey Kong in DKC series are the same character.
2] It seems fine. Mario has canonly confronted Wario in Super Mario series and as you said. (Unlike 3] situation, Wario has appeared in Super Mario Land 2: 6 Golden Coins before so Wario Land: Super Mario Land 3 can be considered as Super Mario series canon, though I personally feel that different keys used in Wario's profile can be kept)
3] Maybe not. I feel that the original Japanese title should be respected first and the translated title (especially for 80s game and 90s game) tends to disrespect the original. You and me have experienced many video games with similar situation when revising the old games.

 

[Armorchompy]

1] It seems reasonable. However, it should be noted that

But "Cranky Kong" here is also known as "Donkey Kong" by casuals, so if the result is fusing DK and DKC, this difference should be specifically noted and have clear reference. Before that, I believe that Donkey Kong in DK series and Donkey Kong in DKC series are the same character.

Well, yeah

3] Maybe not. I feel that the original Japanese title should be respected first and the translated title (especially for 80s game and 90s game) tends to disrespect the original. You and me have experienced many video games with similar situation when revising the old games.

We're not using the title as basis, just the contents of the game

 

[Mariogoods]

We're not using the title as basis, just the contents of the game

If the content of the game could support the "same canonity" thing, then it is supported then.

 

[Da_Lunge_Fish]

Anyway, I'd like opinions on the list, mostly on whether

• Donkey Kong and DKC should be fused
• Wario Land should be considered part of mainline canon
• Yoshi's Island should be considered part of mainline canon

I agree

 

[Foxthefox1000]

It being launched into a space full of realistic Galaxies is completely irrelevant, I'm not arguing that real Galaxies exist in Mario, they obviously do lol. I'm disputing the idea that Lumas can instantly transform into said realistic galaxies on demand, which there is no proof of. I'm going to be honest with you though I have absolutely zero clue why you continue to link sources that don't in any way refute my points and merely confirm what I say, it's a rather unorthodox method of debate.

Claiming that what they transform into only appears the way it does because of an artistic choice and that canonically they are actually full sized planets and galaxies is an absolutely extraordinary claim which I do not believe you have the evidence to back up.

Just saying the plot of the game is literally Mario traveling into space and through the universe to save Peach. We've seen Earth portrayed realistically in Mario before but in Galaxy? It's very tiny. It quite literally is an artistic thing. I'm pretty sure we can go scrutinize literally EVERY Videogame feat where something cosmic happens because the character had to actually be on screen otherwise if it was realistic they wouldn't even be visible to the naked eye.

Also, using the planets as an example is fine and all, but what about the other things it says Lumas can become? The only galaxies we see are actual ones. The only stars we see are clearly meant to be actual stars. The comets are also appropriately sized iirc. Why is everything but the one example you bring up appropriately sized? And don't give me the level select images for the galaxies. Those are just small portions of the Galaxy you travel to to get the Star. With all this said, it's clear the planets and moons are small clearly for gameplay, which Mario does all the time. Look at Mario on Level Select screens or the famous castle punt. Imagine actually running through an accurately sized planet. Wouldn't make for a great game

 

[Foxthefox1000]

Aside from that, if we have to vote for an option, I'm fine with A. I think it makes sense

 

[Seol404]

Just saying the plot of the game is literally Mario traveling into space and through the universe to save Peach. We've seen Earth portrayed realistically in Mario before but in Galaxy? It's very tiny. It quite literally is an artistic thing. I'm pretty sure we can go scrutinize literally EVERY Videogame feat where something cosmic happens because the character had to actually be on screen otherwise if it was realistic they wouldn't even be visible to the naked eye.

Also, using the planets as an example is fine and all, but what about the other things it says Lumas can become? The only galaxies we see are actual ones. The only stars we see are clearly meant to be actual stars. The comets are also appropriately sized iirc. Why is everything but the one example you bring up appropriately sized? And don't give me the level select images for the galaxies. Those are just small portions of the Galaxy you travel to to get the Star. With all this said, it's clear the planets and moons are small clearly for gameplay, which Mario does all the time. Look at Mario on Level Select screens or the famous castle punt. Imagine actually running through an accurately sized planet. Wouldn't make for a great game

We do see Mario's planet and it is regular planet sized lol, no idea where you got this claim from because it's blatantly untrue.

The rest of this argument boils down to claiming that the objects we see in game are actually way bigger and were only made like that due to artistic intent and that the areas Mario is canonically exploring are unfathomably larger, which as I said before, is an incredibly extraordinary claim that I've yet to see any evidence for, be it direct developer commentary, guidebook statements, etc...

 

[RethPo]

Well its the 10th for me. Probably time to make a new revision with this

 

[Maverick_Zero_X]

Yeah, I think it's time to get implementation underway.

Option A is the majority vote.

 

[Armorchompy]

Definitely. Anyone have an issue with the list I made? I don't have a vote count at the moment but I think the majority voted option A. Also for now I will be operating with Wario Land and Yoshi's Island fused with mainline, but will keep Donkey Kong and DKC split for now.

If there's no issues I'll make the next thread.

 

[Pikaman]

I wanted to bring up a few things if you can give me the day to compile my suggestions?

 

[Armorchompy]

Sure, no problem

 

[DarkDragonMedeus]

I'll post my draft; even though I probably won't fully finish it. Plus I don't think it will sway nor stop the generally voted proposal of option A. I don't have the hardest evidence aside from direct quotations sourced for some arguments, I wasn't able to watch videos, screenshot specific statements, and post on Imgur Albums is why I don't think any swaying will happen.

But I at least want to organize the bullet point formats before I post. Which should still be some time today; in the North American evening time at latest.

 

[Antvasima]

Okay. I think that wecan wait a bit longer for Medeus then.

 

[Foxthefox1000]

We do see Mario's planet and it is regular planet sized lol, no idea where you got this claim from because it's blatantly untrue.

The rest of this argument boils down to claiming that the objects we see in game are actually way bigger and were only made like that due to artistic intent and that the areas Mario is canonically exploring are unfathomably larger, which as I said before, is an incredibly extraordinary claim that I've yet to see any evidence for, be it direct developer commentary, guidebook statements, etc...

No. It is not. You can see the area the castle got plucked from and it is visible from space if you look through the clouds. That is small. Hell, even the size of the castle in relation to the curvature of the planet right there you can see it's small. You call that actual planet-sized?

 

[Foxthefox1000]

And for another example, you said the Earth was planet-sized?

Guess this shot proves the "miniature planets" are Earth-sized after all.

So either it was an artistic thing because the earth is not much bigger than the "miniature planets" or they're all planet-sized because of that shot. Either way my argument has credibility while yours doesn't. This is the proof you wanted.

 

[Seol404]

No. It is not. You can see the area the castle got plucked from and it is visible from space if you look through the clouds. That is small. Hell, even the size of the castle in relation to the curvature of the planet right there you can see it's small. You call that actual planet-sized?

lol. lmao. They are supposed to be far away from the planet, of course it looks small, it even looks normal planet sized again later in that very scene, and earlier in these scene (like, a couple seconds before the timestamp you linked) it shows the Castle floating up from what appears to be a normal sized planet.

Guess this shot proves the "miniature planets" are Earth-sized after all.

So either it was an artistic thing because the earth is not much bigger than the "miniature planets" or they're all planet-sized because of that shot. Either way my argument has credibility while yours doesn't. This is the proof you wanted.

This shot also shows the other galaxies right next to Mario's planet when you've already claimed he goes across the universe in this game.

This tiny Earth model is only used when they are showing far away shots of it, ffs you literally walk around on the planet at the start of the game and it's not tiny, the final shot of the game when it zooms out has to cut out to a view of the full planet because it's not tiny. They don't have far away view models of the other "planets" in the game because that is meant to be their actual size in relation to Mario, claiming otherwise is to argue that what we see and experience in game is canonically not what happens, which you still haven't backed up with any statements from the creative team or an other official source.

 

[DarkDragonMedeus]

So this post will be quite lengthy and much of it might consist of repeated topics, but I will try to cover all the relevant details as well as mention some notes about some common plot points for each series. And of course, it's still agreed we won't be splitting canon/continuity or cosmology or characters and what not. But just noting that the main cast is consistently much higher during certain series compared to others. And if there are too many keys to create, we may need to make multiple profile pages. Which may or may not happen after this, but there's still quite a few things that need to be said.

And since I ran out of time, I didn't collect many Imgur Album screenshots from YouTube videos, but there are direct quotations in the source for most of the wiki pages.

Canonicity Connections
As what has been brought up numerous times; there are a ton of games that reference each other back and forth. In which it pretty much starts with a lot of details originating from Paper Mario.

• Paper Mario Makes quite a few references to other Mario games
  • Starting with Luigi's Diary
    • Page 1 brings up Mario Golf, Mario Tennis, and Mario Party series using capitalized letters
    • Page 2 references an upcoming Luigi's Mansion. And the quote is identical to what Luigi said in the instruction manual that comes with the game
      • Furthermore, the character Herringway was writing a book called Paper Mario/Mario Story which matches which ever localization of the games title. And it is officially published by the time Luigi's Mansion takes place as he's shown reading a book called "Mario Story by Herringway."
    • Page 11 also confirms a wish he made over a shooting star, which is one of the wishes seen in Star Hill in Legend of the Seven Stars; aka the prequal to the original Paper Mario.
  • On Yoshi's Island, there are quite a few references to that game.
    • Raphael the Raven appears in that game was was hinted at being a former villain; aka is was a boss in Yoshi's Island
    • Village Leader said he used to attack Ravens and was once heroic; also seems to recognize Mario even if Mario doesn't recognize him because he claimed that, "He was just a baby when they parted ways".
    • Other NPCs also made mention that the Village Leader also used to carry a young hero on his back. Though can't seem to find specific statements for Village Leader.
• In turn, there are references to the Paper Mario series in later Mario titles
  • Goomboss from Super Mario 64 DS is the exact same character as Goomba King from Paper Mario; same design, recognizes Mario as someone who defeated him before and he got his revenge. Also recognizes Luigi similarly to what is explained in the Super Luigi Book series when course episode is revisited as Luigi.
  • The blocks from Paper Mario appear in Mario and Luigi Superstar Saga and its remake and described as coming from "Mario's Past Adventures"
  • Star Hill appears in Partners in Time and it's recognized as a place they been to.
  • While it mentioned Luigi's Mansion; Luigi's Mansion is also canon to Super Mario Sunshine given E Gadd is the confirmed inventor of FLUDD and Bowser Jr's Paintbrush. The vacuum that catches ghosts is also referenced in Serina Beach Episode 3 and it's noted Mario gave the Pianta a strange look for mentioning that. Luigi's Mansion, Mario Sunshine, and Superstar Saga all respectively connect each other making E Gadd a pretty recurring figure ever since.
  • Koopatrols appear in Super Princess Peach
• Paper Mario: The Thousand Year Door also references a lot of past Mario games. Though only one seems very plot related outside of more obvious ones.
  • Aside from it being a clear sequel to the original Paper Mario, there are evidences of it taking place after Super Mario Sunshine; Piantas recognize someone looking at him doing "Funny business at Isle Delfino". A minor thing on paper, but it gives hints.
• Super Paper Mario basically introduced us to Mario's version of Hell, that literally goes above and beyond with lore. Plenty old game references, but a lot of NPCs are defeated characters from old games.
• In Mario & Luigi, Superstar Saga also has story follow up details from other Mario series games
  • E Gadd appears and recognizes Luigi as well as his fear of ghosts. He also had inventions such as Poltergeist 4000 and Gameboy Horror SP; which are stated to be upgraded versions of Poltergeist 3000 and Gameboy Horror from Luigi's Mansion.
  • The first NPC Toad also takes to Mario that basically implies the game takes place immediately after Super Mario Sunshine where he just had "A long vacation".
• Partners In Time also continues the trend with E Gadd being the same one from Luigi's Mansion
  • The past version of E Gadd moves to a place called "Boo Woods" which the present older E Gadd confirms where he eventually meets Luigi the first time; confirming the plot of Luigi's Mansion did canonically happen.
• Never played Captain Toad's Treasure Tracker, but this is another character with a notable history.
  • It may be his own spinoff game, but it's a follow up to 3D World
  • Future games such as Color Splash and Super Mario Odyssey also make note that imply Treasure Tracker's events happened
  • Super Mario Galaxy also marked the first official appearance and when Mario recognizes him

That mostly wraps up all I need to say minus specific Imgur screenshots and/or YouTube video links which is why I don't think this is going to sway anyone. But there's a lot of back and forth information that the classic Paper Mario games, Luigi's Mansion series, Mario & Luigi series are all connected to each other with the sports, party, and kart games thrown in as Luigi consistently states in the Paper Mario series that he has experience doing those things combined with TTYD being the first chronological appearance of Toadette and when she first meets Mario, then later appears in Sports, Party games, Mario Kart, and even New Super Mario Bros U Deluxe. Then Sticker Star was the game that made Paper Mario dull, with Color Splash making some effort to pick up pace characterization and story wise. Paper Jam's Paper Mario is an outlier as it's implied they were born when the book was opened, and Color Splash mentions all these "Alternate Dimensions" and "Parallel Universes", but it also has a lot of connections.

Others already covered Yoshi's Island series being official prequals to the mainline Super Mario series + Paper Mario ect. The Seven Star Children plot is still something officially canon across all Mario series games. Including the 7th star child being born during the credits of Yoshi's Island DS is the same Yoshi who regularly appears in the various Mario Party, Sports, Kart, ect and the first Yoshi the Mario Bros meet in the introduction to Super Mario World.

Wario Land was already covered as an official sequal to Super Mario Land series. As for Donkey Kong and Donkey Kong Country; Nintendo used to always say Cranky Kong was the original Donkey Kong and the grandfather of the one who all know and love. But there have been contesting given the Mario Vs Donkey Kong series still has Mario and Pauline being in the 20's with it being Modern DK and not Cranky who kidnaps her. And we sure aren't using Game Theory's idea of Jump Man actually being Mario's dad with that Pauline being his mum. And it's more implied Donkey Kong as opposed to Cranky Kong was the Star Child.

Power Tiering Notes​

I'm not going to go over every single feat and what not here but that's for a different topic. But I will say that while Mario is often inconsistent, there should be some notices on what is consistent. The RPGs especially are very consistent in implying Mario does get much stronger as the story progresses; he often goes from being extremely fodder compared to the main villain but later turns the tables throughout his journey. Not just ones with level up systems, but so do Color Splash and The Origami King. Though, resetting to level 1 next game is often a game mechanic and there are other RPG verses that have those issues which shall be unnamed for the avoidance of whataboutism, but it's still a consistent RPG trend.

There are statements I've heard for Mario 64 DS about Mario getting stronger as he collects power stars. It's also consistent in Galaxy where Mario couldn't reach or catch Bowser initially, but was able to catch up and over power an massively amplified version of Bowser later on. Even Bowser's Inside Story eventually has Bowser get much stronger during the course of his journey as he was initially weakened by his consumption of a poison mushroom, but it takes until the end to get his full strength back. It's also implied that the Dark Star is supposed to be far more destructive than any Giant Boss, yet Bowser matched and surpassed him in his regular form.

There aren't really any specific statements of Mario cast getting weaker, only ones that get stronger. Another example are the lyrics to the DK Rap. There are short implications such as the statement that Toad made in the beginning of Superstar Saga; in which he hoped Mario's "Long vacation he had didn't leave him out of shape", which of course is a nod to Super Mario Sunshine. There's no story based details of getting weaker, more so just game mechanics and plot convivence of Mario characters needing something to struggle. But some might make the argument that maybe the new threat was stronger than the last; but that's also contested.

So if there are going to be key splits, then obvious examples such as obvious direct sequels should consider Mario cast stronger in the sequels than in the prequals generally speaking; Odyssey Mario shouldn't be weaker than Galaxy Mario despite much less impressive feats who is in turn stronger than Mario was in Sunshine, Dream Team Mario & Luigi should be stronger than they were Bowser's Inside Story who are in turn stronger than they were in Partners in Time. And Super Paper Mario Mario > TTYD Mario > N64 Paper Mario > Seven Stars Mario. But even with canon connections, the connections Luigi's Mansion, Super Mario Sunshine, and Mario 64 DS have with Paper Mario and M&L series can often make things iffy.

Conclusion​

I won't be swaying against the majority here, but it's been agreed there's no canon split, cosmology split, or entire character splits; with only exception is Paper Jam Mario is a different character form the original Paper Mario character and everyone else.

Any collected scans to back up my claims will be done in either smaller posts or on a new thread that I might make when I'm ready to retackle the revisions if I get there. But for now, let's just go with the Option A to split into series profiles with keys for games or eras within each series.

 

[Armorchompy]

So this post will be quite lengthy and much of it might consist of repeated topics, but I will try to cover all the relevant details as well as mention some notes about some common plot points for each series. And of course, it's still agreed we won't be splitting canon/continuity or cosmology or characters and what not. But just noting that the main cast is consistently much higher during certain series compared to others. And if there are too many keys to create, we may need to make multiple profile pages. Which may or may not happen after this, but there's still quite a few things that need to be said.

And since I ran out of time, I didn't collect many Imgur Album screenshots from YouTube videos, but there are direct quotations in the source for most of the wiki pages.

Canonicity Connections
As what has been brought up numerous times; there are a ton of games that reference each other back and forth. In which it pretty much starts with a lot of details originating from Paper Mario.

• Paper Mario Makes quite a few references to other Mario games
  • Starting with Luigi's Diary
    • Page 1 brings up Mario Golf, Mario Tennis, and Mario Party series using capitalized letters
    • Page 2 references an upcoming Luigi's Mansion. And the quote is identical to what Luigi said in the instruction manual that comes with the game
      • Furthermore, the character Herringway was writing a book called Paper Mario/Mario Story which matches which ever localization of the games title. And it is officially published by the time Luigi's Mansion takes place as he's shown reading a book called "Mario Story by Herringway."
    • Page 11 also confirms a wish he made over a shooting star, which is one of the wishes seen in Star Hill in Legend of the Seven Stars; aka the prequal to the original Paper Mario.
  • On Yoshi's Island, there are quite a few references to that game.
    • Raphael the Raven appears in that game was was hinted at being a former villain; aka is was a boss in Yoshi's Island
    • Village Leader said he used to attack Ravens and was once heroic; also seems to recognize Mario even if Mario doesn't recognize him because he claimed that, "He was just a baby when they parted ways".
    • Other NPCs also made mention that the Village Leader also used to carry a young hero on his back. Though can't seem to find specific statements for Village Leader.
• In turn, there are references to the Paper Mario series in later Mario titles
  • Goomboss from Super Mario 64 DS is the exact same character as Goomba King from Paper Mario; same design, recognizes Mario as someone who defeated him before and he got his revenge. Also recognizes Luigi similarly to what is explained in the Super Luigi Book series when course episode is revisited as Luigi.
  • The blocks from Paper Mario appear in Mario and Luigi Superstar Saga and its remake and described as coming from "Mario's Past Adventures"
  • Star Hill appears in Partners in Time and it's recognized as a place they been to.
  • While it mentioned Luigi's Mansion; Luigi's Mansion is also canon to Super Mario Sunshine given E Gadd is the confirmed inventor of FLUDD and Bowser Jr's Paintbrush. The vacuum that catches ghosts is also referenced in Serina Beach Episode 3 and it's noted Mario gave the Pianta a strange look for mentioning that. Luigi's Mansion, Mario Sunshine, and Superstar Saga all respectively connect each other making E Gadd a pretty recurring figure ever since.
  • Koopatrols appear in Super Princess Peach
• Paper Mario: The Thousand Year Door also references a lot of past Mario games. Though only one seems very plot related outside of more obvious ones.
  • Aside from it being a clear sequel to the original Paper Mario, there are evidences of it taking place after Super Mario Sunshine; Piantas recognize someone looking at him doing "Funny business at Isle Delfino". A minor thing on paper, but it gives hints.
• Super Paper Mario basically introduced us to Mario's version of Hell, that literally goes above and beyond with lore. Plenty old game references, but a lot of NPCs are defeated characters from old games.

I understand that these are a lot of connections to toss away but I can't help but feel that either these are just parallel events, or they've been somewhat retconned. Not only do modern Paper Mario games lack these references (which means nothing on its own), but they clearly depict Mario characters as being made of paper. I understand usually the explanation for this has been that the paper was just an artstyle, but modern games clearly show that not to be the case (scans taken from this thread, which also has way more examples, this is just a handful of showings to make the point) and they really are as thin as paper:

• A single Toad is able to fit crumpled up inside a coconut.
• 7 Toads fit inside a tiny compact ball
• 9 Toads can be stuffed in a cabinet without issue alongside a stack of regular paper.
• 10 Toads were able to manuever through an air vent together
• Bowser Jr. Rolls into a tube on command
• Even in 64, Paper people can float when falling
• Getting "creased" is the equivalent of an injury for these people, and can be fixed just by smoothing them out
• Paper people can fold themselves if need be

Obviously, nothing here could possibly be performed if the paper gimmick was just an art style. I suppose you could assume some highly advanced form of body control but giving that to everyone in the verse is obviously not reasonable when it's clearly just something inherent to their bodies by virtue of them being made of paper. The "creased" scan is particularly damning given that obviously, flesh doesn't get creased. You could also assume every other Mario game is actually featuring paper beings, but that's a pretty insane assumption that I am sure is contradicted somewhere.

Now to take a step away from the in-verse perspective, what's actually going on here is that there was a pretty notable creative shift starting after TTYD but mainly with Sticker Star, in which the Paper Mario series' design goals shifted around, and evidently the paper gimmick went from what was an artstyle used for a few gags to an essential part of the world. But I am of the opinion that the newer games' consistent direction should be used over the older ones.

• In Mario & Luigi, Superstar Saga also has story follow up details from other Mario series games
  • E Gadd appears and recognizes Luigi as well as his fear of ghosts. He also had inventions such as Poltergeist 4000 and Gameboy Horror SP; which are stated to be upgraded versions of Poltergeist 3000 and Gameboy Horror from Luigi's Mansion.
  • The first NPC Toad also takes to Mario that basically implies the game takes place immediately after Super Mario Sunshine where he just had "A long vacation".
• Partners In Time also continues the trend with E Gadd being the same one from Luigi's Mansion
  • The past version of E Gadd moves to a place called "Boo Woods" which the present older E Gadd confirms where he eventually meets Luigi the first time; confirming the plot of Luigi's Mansion did canonically happen.
• Never played Captain Toad's Treasure Tracker, but this is another character with a notable history.
  • It may be his own spinoff game, but it's a follow up to 3D World
  • Future games such as Color Splash and Super Mario Odyssey also make note that imply Treasure Tracker's events happened
  • Super Mario Galaxy also marked the first official appearance and when Mario recognizes him

I'm not opposed to LM + M&L and CTTT + mainline being fused, btw.

Power Tiering Notes​

I'm not going to go over every single feat and what not here but that's for a different topic. But I will say that while Mario is often inconsistent, there should be some notices on what is consistent. The RPGs especially are very consistent in implying Mario does get much stronger as the story progresses; he often goes from being extremely fodder compared to the main villain but later turns the tables throughout his journey. Not just ones with level up systems, but so do Color Splash and The Origami King. Though, resetting to level 1 next game is often a game mechanic and there are other RPG verses that have those issues which shall be unnamed for the avoidance of whataboutism, but it's still a consistent RPG trend.

I think if Mario RPGs were to become their own canon (with additions), accepting the power increase through level ups would be very reasonable, they'd likely get keys and all. Although equipment might play a part into that.

There are statements I've heard for Mario 64 DS about Mario getting stronger as he collects power stars. It's also consistent in Galaxy where Mario couldn't reach or catch Bowser initially, but was able to catch up and over power an massively amplified version of Bowser later on.

My issue with these though, is that in the game afterwards Mario would go back to fighting Bowser evenly despite him lacking the amps that allowed him to fight Mario before. You could possibly assume these are just stomps happening outside of gameplay but that's unlikely, as Bowser stomps Mario in the very beginning of Odyssey and Mario generally always regards him as a thread.

Even Bowser's Inside Story eventually has Bowser get much stronger during the course of his journey as he was initially weakened by his consumption of a poison mushroom, but it takes until the end to get his full strength back. It's also implied that the Dark Star is supposed to be far more destructive than any Giant Boss, yet Bowser matched and surpassed him in his regular form.

This is kind of weird, as the bros don't undergo similar downgrades in power but they do still fight the same people as Bowser. IMO they just grow alongside each other in power, with Bowser not having been weakened much under his previous strength by the poison but just reaching new heights, though the extent of that depends on whether those implications about the Dark Star end up being usable.

 

[The_Almighty_Wholesome]

Although neither option doesn’t personally feel right to me, I’m voting option A for the time being because it makes far more sense than making huge varied tiers for the Mario gang.

 

[Foxthefox1000]

lol. lmao. They are supposed to be far away from the planet, of course it looks small, it even looks normal planet sized again later in that very scene, and earlier in these scene (like, a couple seconds before the timestamp you linked) it shows the Castle floating up from what appears to be a normal sized planet.

This shot also shows the other galaxies right next to Mario's planet when you've already claimed he goes across the universe in this game.

This tiny Earth model is only used when they are showing far away shots of it, ffs you literally walk around on the planet at the start of the game and it's not tiny, the final shot of the game when it zooms out has to cut out to a view of the full planet because it's not tiny. They don't have far away view models of the other "planets" in the game because that is meant to be their actual size in relation to Mario, claiming otherwise is to argue that what we see and experience in game is canonically not what happens, which you still haven't backed up with any statements from the creative team or an other official source.

You're very stubborn. You acknowledge the planet's size varies, though. That was my point. Mario does it all the time and Galaxy is no exception. He's supposed to be traveling space and the universe, unless you're trying to say that Mario's universe is definitely full of objects all smaller than actual celestial bodies your argument never made sense from the actual descriptions of the game anyways. Going through space you absolutely would come across galaxies, stars, and planets and the like. If you're arguing 'in the game they're all small" then I suppose you're arguing the entire cosmology is small. But you're not, right? Because you acknowledge the artistic inconsistency of size in your own arguments. You're literally shooting yourself in the foot.

And I don't quite like your attitude either. The "lmao" after everything sounds passive aggressive like you're viewing me as some kind of joke. I ask you to kindly try and refrain from doing that.

 

[Pikaman]

I wanted to bring up a few things if you can give me the day to compile my suggestions?

Ok this is a bit later than I had intended, but here:

I think a lack of split in the “Super” games is kinda dumb. While some of the games obviously have very close relationships (e.g. Sunshine is a direct sequel of Mario 64) but even then you have to remember we are doing this split because it’s an explanation for Mario’s consistency, and we do need to have splits less basic than some I’ve seen proposed to actually show that consistency

Donkey Kong + Mario vs Donkey Kong

Mario Kart

Super Mario Bros. + Super Mario Land + New Super Mario Bros. + Super Mario World + 3D Land/World

Mario Sports (Golf, Tennis. Mix, Strikers etc. etc.)

Super Mario RPG

Mario Party

Mario 64 + Mario Sunshine

Paper Mario

Mario and Luigi

(I consider Paper Jam more a temporary crossover between these two than an established link between them)

Luigi’s Mansion

Mario Galaxy

Mario + Rabbids

Here’s my proposed groupings, I think these take the closely related games with canon or heavily implied links to each other pretty well.

 

[DarkDragonMedeus]

I understand that these are a lot of connections to toss away but I can't help but feel that either these are just parallel events, or they've been somewhat retconned. Not only do modern Paper Mario games lack these references (which means nothing on its own), but they clearly depict Mario characters as being made of paper. I understand usually the explanation for this has been that the paper was just an artstyle, but modern games clearly show that not to be the case (scans taken from this thread, which also has way more examples, this is just a handful of showings to make the point) and they really are as thin as paper:

• A single Toad is able to fit crumpled up inside a coconut.
• 7 Toads fit inside a tiny compact ball
• 9 Toads can be stuffed in a cabinet without issue alongside a stack of regular paper.
• 10 Toads were able to manuever through an air vent together
• Bowser Jr. Rolls into a tube on command
• Even in 64, Paper people can float when falling
• Getting "creased" is the equivalent of an injury for these people, and can be fixed just by smoothing them out
• Paper people can fold themselves if need be

Obviously, nothing here could possibly be performed if the paper gimmick was just an art style. I suppose you could assume some highly advanced form of body control but giving that to everyone in the verse is obviously not reasonable when it's clearly just something inherent to their bodies by virtue of them being made of paper. The "creased" scan is particularly damning given that obviously, flesh doesn't get creased. You could also assume every other Mario game is actually featuring paper beings, but that's a pretty insane assumption that I am sure is contradicted somewhere.

Now to take a step away from the in-verse perspective, what's actually going on here is that there was a pretty notable creative shift starting after TTYD but mainly with Sticker Star, in which the Paper Mario series' design goals shifted around, and evidently the paper gimmick went from what was an artstyle used for a few gags to an essential part of the world. But I am of the opinion that the newer games' consistent direction should be used over the older ones.

Well again, I won't be giving any extensive arguments. And if anything, I'd argue classic Paper Mario and Modern Paper Mario also could be seperate; in which classic PM is the same as mainline and all those other games while Modern Paper Mario, Sticker Star and beyond are different + possibly the one from Paper Jam too. Although, Color Splash also has details that imply Captain Toad took place before it + There was an old Universary research paper written by Goombella in the same University Goombella was stated to go to. Color Splash is more so just a double edge sword; half the time it supports just being the same as mainline Mario but other times implies being alternate dimension.

I wasn't going to say just Art style. That is one detail, but also remember that Mario is a verse where everyone seems to have 4th wall awareness. Even mainline Mario games had being made of pixels literal. It's a similar trope to Neverhood being a universe made entirely out of clay being literal, or 3D Game Heroes being made of pixels literal. And even then, Kirby's Epic Yarn also has the whole everyone and everything being made of yarn appear a consistent physiology detail, but that doesn't stop it from being part of the main series. Same with the Yoshi's Whooly World series; it's still officially part of the Yoshi's Island series despite also contextually having the yarn physiology being consistent. Actually, I'm willing to consider that an extremely consistent Toon Force power amongst Mario characters; even mainline Mario games and Wario Land series have the ability to flatten themselves into things like pancakes, paper, or flipping from being a 3-D form to 2-D form and can transform back at will.

Then again, I don't really have any hard opinions, but I still think classic Paper Mario and Modern Paper Mario being separate could solve other potential issues.

I think if Mario RPGs were to become their own canon (with additions), accepting the power increase through level ups would be very reasonable, they'd likely get keys and all. Although equipment might play a part into that.

Well, I don't think any game being treated as different canon as opposed to having unknown time placements was what is agreed on. Or alternate universes within the same multiverse at worst. And stronger equipment is also acknowledged as contributing to getting stronger and other RPG series so not against that also being part of it alongside leveling up.

My issue with these though, is that in the game afterwards Mario would go back to fighting Bowser evenly despite him lacking the amps that allowed him to fight Mario before. You could possibly assume these are just stomps happening outside of gameplay but that's unlikely, as Bowser stomps Mario in the very beginning of Odyssey and Mario generally always regards him as a thread.

Some could argue Bowser also gets stronger, but I digress, it's another note worthy inconsistency.

This is kind of weird, as the bros don't undergo similar downgrades in power but they do still fight the same people as Bowser. IMO they just grow alongside each other in power, with Bowser not having been weakened much under his previous strength by the poison but just reaching new heights, though the extent of that depends on whether those implications about the Dark Star end up being usable.

Well, maybe not super weaker, but some muscle molecules and amino acids aren't working the way they should is one of the main plot points of BIS. Which is why Mario Bros basically act as his super molecules that trigger the proper nerves in his muscles. But every feat he does aside from arguably his giant form; which is still only a mortal danger move, should still be feats Bowser is physically more than capable of as long as his muscles are awake.

It ends with the Bros kicking his ass in a classic fashion in the epilogue, so that just means all three of them > Dark Star > Fawfuls Giant Robots. And speaking of Giant forms, regular Mario still trades blows with the same bosses as Giant Dreamy Luigi who traded blows with Giant form Bowser. Mario, Luigi, Yoshi, and Peach also traded blows with Giant form Bowser on more than one occasion. Circular on paper, but still consistent in execution.

 

[DarkDragonMedeus]

And FYI, if a remake has made some differences in story and dialogue but hasn't changed the "Mario's Past Adventures" detail in the gallery or early in the game the Toad talking about "Mario's long vacation" and said remake was after Paper Jam. I'm not sure if the retcon idea holds two much weight and/or the double retcon makes the two retcons cancel each other out.

 

[Armorchompy]

Well again, I won't be giving any extensive arguments. And if anything, I'd argue classic Paper Mario and Modern Paper Mario also could be seperate; in which classic PM is the same as mainline and all those other games while Modern Paper Mario, Sticker Star and beyond are different + possibly the one from Paper Jam too. Although, Color Splash also has details that imply Captain Toad took place before it + There was an old Universary research paper written by Goombella in the same University Goombella was stated to go to. Color Splash is more so just a double edge sword; half the time it supports just being the same as mainline Mario but other times implies being alternate dimension.

I don't think one or two vague references which might just imply similar events have happened in this world too make for a "double-edged sword", there's a very clear divide here, especially with Paper Jam providing context.

And even then, Kirby's Epic Yarn also has the whole everyone and everything being made of yarn appear a consistent physiology detail, but that doesn't stop it from being part of the main series. Same with the Yoshi's Whooly World series; it's still officially part of the Yoshi's Island series despite also contextually having the yarn physiology being consistent.

Those have actual story reasons for that though, completely different thing. I'm pretty sure Woolly World just has a different setting straight-up.

Actually, I'm willing to consider that an extremely consistent Toon Force power amongst Mario characters; even mainline Mario games and Wario Land series have the ability to flatten themselves into things like pancakes, paper, or flipping from being a 3-D form to 2-D form and can transform back at will.

There's a very big difference between Wario getting squished by certain attacks and PM characters being referred to as being made of paper explicitly.

Then again, I don't really have any hard opinions, but I still think classic Paper Mario and Modern Paper Mario being separate could solve other potential issues.

The Origami King has a room in it with pictures of Peach from previous Paper Mario games, implying it's the same continuity.

Well, I don't think any game being treated as different canon as opposed to having unknown time placements was what is agreed on.

Paper Mario would be, I think, as for the rest yeah my mistake, but effectively that is roughly how we'd be treating them in practice..

And speaking of Giant forms, regular Mario still trades blows with the same bosses as Giant Dreamy Luigi who traded blows with Giant form Bowser. Mario, Luigi, Yoshi, and Peach also traded blows with Giant form Bowser on more than one occasion. Circular on paper, but still consistent in execution.

Dream Luigi amps Mario, I believe. As for the latter, that'd require further analysis on whether it stomping them or being on even grounds with them is more consistent for any given "continuity".

And FYI, if a remake has made some differences in story and dialogue but hasn't changed the "Mario's Past Adventures" detail in the gallery or early in the game the Toad talking about "Mario's long vacation" and said remake was after Paper Jam. I'm not sure if the retcon idea holds two much weight and/or the double retcon makes the two retcons cancel each other out.

I think that's just a bit of fanservice, wouldn't give it too much weight. Ultimately Nintendo doesn't really care about Mario canon, we should try to be somewhat conservative regarding what does or doesn't count.

 

[Antvasima]

So are the rest of you fine with Medeus' suggestion to treat Mario as the same character (with one exception), but with different statistics and abilities from game series to game series, which are listed via several profile pages for him and other prominent characters in his verse?

It seems fine to me at least.

 

[Pikaman]

So are the rest of you fine with Medeus' suggestion to treat Mario as the same character (with one exception), but with different statistics and abilities from game series to game series, which are listed via several profile pages for him and other prominent characters in his verse?

It seems fine to me at least.

Yeah, Mario (and other characters) is the same guy portrayed through several different stories not inherently linked, with the exception for me of Paper Mario, which is an entirely different character

 

[Antvasima]

Okay. That is good then.

 

[Seol404]

You're very stubborn. You acknowledge the planet's size varies, though. That was my point. Mario does it all the time and Galaxy is no exception. He's supposed to be traveling space and the universe, unless you're trying to say that Mario's universe is definitely full of objects all smaller than actual celestial bodies your argument never made sense from the actual descriptions of the game anyways. Going through space you absolutely would come across galaxies, stars, and planets and the like. If you're arguing 'in the game they're all small" then I suppose you're arguing the entire cosmology is small. But you're not, right? Because you acknowledge the artistic inconsistency of size in your own arguments. You're literally shooting yourself in the foot.

And I don't quite like your attitude either. The "lmao" after everything sounds passive aggressive like you're viewing me as some kind of joke. I ask you to kindly try and refrain from doing that.

I don't acknowledge that the planets size varies, I never did. I stated that it only looked small because it was meant to be far away, then when we get a different angle it looks planet sized again, it didn't get bigger between shots, our perspective simply changes. Real celestial bodies obviously exist in Mario, I've said that I believe this so many times it's quite incredible that people still try to say I don't think this as some kind of gatcha to take down my argument when my argument has nothing to do with this, I am not arguing that real planets/stars/galaxies exist in the Mario universe because that would be really stupid since we see that they do, what I dispute is that Lumas can instantly transform into full sized Galaxies at will to justify a ridiculously exaggerated scaling chain when everything we see them transform into on sceen is so ludicrously smaller it is laughable to even suggest that what they turn into is Galaxy sized. I acknowledge that they have to use a smaller 3D model to represent what is supposed to be a real planet, but it makes it more apparent that the other objects you explore are not meant to represent real planets, the Earth in SMG looks like a real planet, the tiny floating islands in space do not and I've yet to see any official source stating they are meant to represent anything other than what they are in game.

My apologies if I came off as though I was viewing you as a joke, that was not my intention.

 

[Seol404]

So are the rest of you fine with Medeus' suggestion to treat Mario as the same character (with one exception), but with different statistics and abilities from game series to game series, which are listed via several profile pages for him and other prominent characters in his verse?

Yes, I agree with this, ideally there should be a note on each page explaining that all pages depict the same character, and that they are only separated for to indexing purposes and not that different series are not part of the same canon.

 

[Antvasima]

A note seems like a good idea.

 

[Maverick_Zero_X]

"Though almost every iteration of Mario is the same character, the franchise practices great narrative flexibility, with the cast being likened to a "troupe of actors" meant to take on a myriad of different roles, resulting in wildly inconsistent power levels between each installment to fit the plot of each game. As such, he has been separated in different profiles to reflect the fluctuations in his abilities and power level between each series."

A bit rough but I think something to this effect works

 

[Antvasima]

That wording seems fine to me at least.

 

[Eficiente]

Minor

Even Bowser's Inside Story eventually has Bowser get much stronger during the course of his journey as he was initially weakened by his consumption of a poison mushroom, but it takes until the end to get his full strength back.

You could argue the tutorial on how to fight given to Mario since he hasn't fought in a while is canon, and if so indicative that he got weaker. Is there any proof that Bowser got his full strength back by the end? Because he fought evenly against mid-game Mario & Luigi before it. The best ending for Bowser also has him reaching the "Final Boss Rank" in stats, so I would imagine that maybe he wasn't that strong by the middle of the game.

And even then, Kirby's Epic Yarn also has the whole everyone and everything being made of yarn appear a consistent physiology detail, but that doesn't stop it from being part of the main series.

That game takes place in a planet where everything turns into yarn just by being there. The villain sent everyone there and the game ended with Kirby being able to visit the planet if he wants to.

 

[The_Impress]

So are the rest of you fine with Medeus' suggestion to treat Mario as the same character (with one exception), but with different statistics and abilities from game series to game series, which are listed via several profile pages for him and other prominent characters in his verse?

It seems fine to me at least.

I mean I will say this is literally what my proposal was anyways, so.

 

[Armorchompy]

So are the rest of you fine with Medeus' suggestion to treat Mario as the same character (with one exception), but with different statistics and abilities from game series to game series, which are listed via several profile pages for him and other prominent characters in his verse?

It seems fine to me at least.

It wasn't Medeus' suggestion, Impress made it.

But yeah sure. Do I make the thread to handle the splitting? If so, should we begin by finding stats for all the major continuities, finding P&A, or just working on everything regarding profiles for one specific continuity?

Also, Mav's wording is fine but let me put the sandbox in a blog instead, it's more professional that way.