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Possible Dragon Ball (pre-Z) upgrade revolving around Kami

Well now there is no proof Shenron did it. And it does seem that if he did use the dragon, it would have been noticed by the Z-Fighters. Would be strange considering they think the dragon balls are gone by Piccolo Jr. Saga.

Also seems inconsistent with King Piccolo killing Shenron, unless you wanna upgrade King Piccolo (Though I guess that's inevitable regardless of the outcome).

Also, in the link I just showed, Shenron states he can't maintain his form for long. Seems strange that he can't maintain a 7-B form but would be capable of instantly recreating the entire moon.

And another also, the moon is recreated again by the Mecha Frieza Saga. That is impossible to have been done by Shenron, giving they had used the dragon balls the previous year to revive the dead Z-Fighters.
 
Actually, wasn't that Vegeta who technically recreated the moon? Where is it stated Mecha Frieza did it and why would he do that?
 
I tried looking up the origin of the city busting calc and the image isn't availiable. Neither of the links on the calc are there any longer. But if it's from where King Piccolo destroyed the King's castle and the city, the context of the feat is this: King Piccolo and Goku had started using their full power (King Piccolo states he didn't want to because it shortens his lifespan - earlier he makes no mention of requiring his full power to destroy 1/43 regions in the world), Goku had been using his Power Pole to dodge things and King Piccolo disarms him. Before Goku can reaquire the Power Pole, King Piccolo throws out a quick ki blast (unnamed, effortless, much like how Piccolo threw out a random ki blast in DBZ to destroy the moon), this ki blast destroys the King's castle and the city (while Tien picks up Goku and they fly out of the way).

A point to mention: this calc is the feat King Piccolo's AP is derrived from...and it seems to be completely effortless. King Piccolo says this concerning the regions "That number will correspond to a region I will destroy on the spot. In the blink of an eye, it'll all be over! Don't worry, you won't have time to suffer!" It doesn't make logical sense for him to need his true power, thereby shortening his lifespan, to destroy 1/43 of the regions of earth in an instant. This would imply that his normal power is enough to destroy a region of eath. This would imply he's at least 6-B (maybe at least High 6-B since we have 195/197 countries compared to their 43 which makes me think their countries might be larger than the average we use - though I don't know if they have the same amount of landmass as we do) normally, possibly higher at full power.
 
@DDM what are you talking about?

@Chemist so even by his own statements, he's tier 6 at the very minimum. Does anyone have a link to the thread that kept King Piccolo tier 7?
 
@SD, that time Vegeta struggled to look for the Moon in Saiyan Saga due to it being destroyed by Piccolo. So he created an energy ball to replace the Moon. It was a joke to say Vegeta actually created the actual moon, but I don't think it was explained how the moon got fixed again.
 
DarkDragonMedeus said:
Actually, wasn't that Vegeta who technically recreated the moon?
Click to expand...
It isn't really a moon, I think of it as more of a mirror of sorts to reflect the right about of light to transform. Kyle Hill did calculations for something similar:

How to Hunt Werewolves with Science! (Because Science w Kyle Hill)
How to Hunt Werewolves with Science! (Because Science w Kyle Hill)
 
DarkDragonMedeus said:
It was a joke to say Vegeta actually created the actual moon, but I don't think it was explained how the moon got fixed again.
Click to expand...
Didn't read this part?
 
SomebodyData said:
And it does seem that if he did use the dragon, it would have been noticed by the Z-Fighters. Would be strange considering they think the dragon balls are gone by Piccolo Jr. Saga.
And another also, the moon is recreated again by the Mecha Frieza Saga. That is impossible to have been done by Shenron, giving they had used the dragon balls the previous year to revive the dead Z-Fighters.
Click to expand...
Dragon balls could have been used at any time of the day or night and the others could have failed to notice for a number of reasons. I don't remember if they were really unaware of the return of dragon balls during the tournament, but it can have a number of reasons behind it.

Where is it stated that the moon was recreated by the Mecha Friexa saga? And it still was more than a year apart from when Shenron was used to revive the Namekians.
 
Piccolo wasn't revived by Shenron, he was revived by Porunga. And he never died from Frieza's attack, only knocked out hence why Kami was still alive and told Mr Popo to gather the Dragon Balls. Shenron revived everyone killed by Frieza and his henchmen. And then Porunga was used two or three times with 1/3rd year intervals to do the rest of the things needed.
 
AKM sama said:
Where is it stated that the moon was recreated by the Mecha Friexa saga? And it still was more than a year apart from when Shenron was used to revive the Namekians.
Click to expand...
We see the Moon from King Cold's ship as he and Frieza approach Earth.
 
If it was used, then they would have the dragon radar beeping again because they would have left upper world and gone back down to Earth, so they would have known. None of those reasons would be headcanon, would they?

I brought up the Mecha Frieza saga because Kami and Popo didn't leave the lookout til Piccolo fused with Kami.

And I'm sorry if I have to keep bringing this up but:

  • Kami has no way of gathering the dragon balls without the radar, which he didn't have at any point.
    • Anime ver. of og dragon ball has the balls actually reactivate in Bulma's closet and not leave there. Meaning Kami could not have summoned Shenron.
    • GT (non-canon to the nth degree, I know) makes no mention of the moon being created via shenron during the shadow dragon arc, when the wishes are the basis of the dragons.
  • Shenron lacks any feats near that scale, so Occam's Razor now points towards Kami.
    • Like being killed by King Piccolo and struggling to maintain his body.
I probably should have asked this from the beginning, but what proof is there that Shenron ever created the moon?
 
> Kami has no way of gathering the dragon balls without the radar, which he didn't have at any point.

Mr. Popo collected them rather quickly when Kami sent him in the Freeza Saga.

> Anime ver. of og dragon ball has the balls actually reactivate in Bulma's closet and not leave there. Meaning Kami could not have summoned Shenron.

The anime is non-canon.

> GT (non-canon to the nth degree, I know) makes no mention of the moon being created via shenron during the shadow dragon arc, when the wishes are the basis of the dragons.

Nor does it mention the wish to revive everyone killed by Cell or to remove the Androids' bombs.

> Shenron lacks any feats near that scale, so Occam's Razor now points towards Kami.

Neither does Kami, and Porunga was capable of restoring the Earth in the Boo Arc. Since Porunga was shown to be unable to revive more than one person with each wish, Shenron is likely more powerful than him.

Kami was also considering using the Dragon Balls to wish away Vegeta and Nappa.

> Like being killed by King Piccolo and struggling to maintain his body.

This is irrelevant, all it means is that Shenron is a glass cannon.

> I probably should have asked this from the beginning, but what proof is there that Shenron ever created the moon?

None, much like there is no proof Kami recreated it on his own. However, the former would scale multiple characters to Tier 5, meaning more assumptions are necessary to justify it, while the other doesn't require any assumptions beyond what the series itself has already shown as possible.
 
Yes, but in the Buu Saga, they were stated to still need the Dragon Radar, hence why Goku distracted Buu while Trunks got the radar. Which wouldn't cover getting the dragon balls in the og series.

Porunga is capable of three wishes whereas Shenron is only capable of one, I think its reversed.

That reminded me, in the same chapter Kami considered using the dragon balls, it was mentioned the dragon is only as capable as Kami is in terms of strength. So they scale regardless, no?

Like? Currently, I'm seeing more assumptions (such as Kami or Popo being able to sense the dragon balls or kami waiting til night to summon shenron) to oppose Kami creating it.
 
Porunga and Shenron have different limitations - Porunga can limitlessly resurrect single people while Shenron can revive multitudes, but only once.

King Piccolo, newly restored to youth, killed a Shenron that had just granted a wish, who was getting ready to disperse, and who was caught off guard [we know what happens in Dragon Ball when you're caught off guard]. That doesn't necessarily mean Shenron's a glass cannon. Also, King Piccolo, by his own statements, should be considerably more powerful than he's rated.
 
Prounga resurrected Piccolo, which brought Kami back. They used Shenron to wish back everyone who Frieza had killed, which brought Guru back and Porunga back with 1 wish remaining. They used Porunga to move everyone except Goku and Frieza from Namek to Earth.
 
> Yes, but in the Buu Saga, they were stated to still need the Dragon Radar, hence why Goku distracted Buu while Trunks got the radar. Which wouldn't cover getting the dragon balls in the og series.

The Dragon Radar combined with the Z Warriors's high flight speed makes collecting the Dragon Balls a laughably easy task by the end of series. However, as shown by Mr. Popo taking a few hours at most to collect all seven of them as well as the fact he possesses a magical carpet capable of traversing immense distances in seconds, it'd be relatively trivial for Kami to request all seven Dragon Balls collected and see them by the hour.

> Porunga is capable of three wishes whereas Shenron is only capable of one, I think its reversed.

Shenron, with his one wish, showed much greater area of effect and magical potency than Porunga with his three wishes.

> That reminded me, in the same chapter Kami considered using the dragon balls, it was mentioned the dragon is only as capable as Kami is in terms of strength. So they scale regardless, no?

All that is stated is that the Dragon can not wish away people stronger than his own creator. And no, Kami clearly does not scale to Shenron's wishes based on this, unless Dende and the second Namekian elder are planet destroyers.
 
I know Roshi's moon-busting feat is popularly considered an outlier (despite it existing and being a maximum Kamehameha that used every erg of Roshi's ki to do)...but would the writer have considered that when he wrote it? Kami outclasses the Roshi he drew who destroyed the moon, meaning the writer would have no problems with someone much stronger casually deciding the moon needed to exist again.

Another thought occured to me (perhaps I should stop thinking) that Kami wouldn't have had to materialize it all in one go. As God, he's probably got the blueprints for the moon somewhere and if he couldn't materialize it all in one go, then he could materialize pieces of it at a time.

Anyone else think King Piccolo should be raised from 7-B to at least High 6-B from his statements alone rather than relying on a quick and basic ki blast that casually leveled a city? [Cell gets his rating from a statement as well, rather than an actual feat.]
 
Sorry, I don't understand. What I'm saying is that despite Popo being in the Buu arc, it was still deemed they needed the radar. In other words, Popo doesn't have a way to sense the dragon balls making it impossible for him to have gathered them in the og series.

Porunga's third wish teleported the entire population across interstellar distances. Not sure your example was what you were going for, since it required Shenron's full magic to do what Porunga did with only of one of his wishes, there shows a clear gap in power. Not to mention Porunga's limitation is explicitly placed by Guru, and easily removed afterwards.

Shenron has what planetary feat to scale to Dende again? I have no idea how strong the second namekian leader is by the buu saga, if you got any info to show why its absurd, go ahead, but I do have to remnd you that by the Buu Saga, basically everyone could bust a planet. Just look at Goten and Trunks.
 
> Sorry, I don't understand. What I'm saying is that despite Popo being in the Buu arc, it was still deemed they needed the radar. In other words, Popo doesn't have a way to sense the dragon balls making it impossible for him to have gathered them in the og series.

SD, this is a complete non-sequitur argument. Trunks being capable of flying faster to collect them does not invalidate Popo being able to collect them.
 
@ChemistKyle, Master Roshi's feat was actually calculated to above Moon level and has a comparable calculation to Piccolo's moon busting feat. So I don't think we should lowball it to Moon level to hide an outlier.
 
DarkDragonMedeus said:
@ChemistKyle, Master Roshi's feat was actually calculated to above Moon level and has a comparable calculation to Piccolo's moon busting feat. So I don't think we should lowball it to Moon level to hide an outlier.
Click to expand...
I've always been a fan of giving Roshi Moon level, but it's never been accepted here...even though it occurs in every version of media. If Roshi had Moon level, then King Piccolo and Kami would have at least Moon level (probably Small Planet level) simply from being vastly superior to Roshi. Roshi is currently City level and that's his last rating until ROF.

[I'm not a fan of pixel calculations since they assume whoever drew it was taking into account the physics behind the feat, rather than simply what looks good. I understand they're used here, but that doesn't mean I have to like them].
 
I've always only ever interpreted early DB Roshi as being Moon level at his max power (buff) state, but outside of that state, he's significantly lower. Meaning whoever he's fought wouldn't necessarily scale to Moon level.
 
Kepekley23 said:
> Sorry, I don't understand. What I'm saying is that despite Popo being in the Buu arc, it was still deemed they needed the radar. In other words, Popo doesn't have a way to sense the dragon balls making it impossible for him to have gathered them in the og series.SD, this is a complete non-sequitur argument. Trunks being capable of flying faster to collect them does not invalidate Popo being able to collect them.
Click to expand...
I... never mentioned speed? Just mentioned they couldn't sense the dragon balls, and actively needed the radar, despite Popo being there.

@DDM, what calc?
 
MeleeniumRXJ said:
I've always only ever interpreted early DB Roshi as being Moon level at his max power (buff) state, but outside of that state, he's significantly lower. Meaning whoever he's fought wouldn't necessarily scale to Moon level.
Click to expand...
If Roshi though he had a hope against King Piccolo, wouldn't he have tried his maximum Kamehameha against him instead of trying to use all his life force to seal him away (and failing)?
 
@ChemistKyle89

I think his Max Kamehameha takes longer to prepare and power-up to than just doing the Mafuba, which means the latter has the more likelihood of succeeding (even though it ultimately didn't). We never see him power-up to max in general in a fight, so why expect differently against King Piccolo? The form is obviously only good for accessing an immense amount of ki, but it's probably too cumbersome in actual battle.
 
Any thoughs on upping King Piccolo to 6-B or High 6-B from his statements? I find it difficult to believe a quick, casual, unnamed ki blast before Goku could retreive the Power Pole is the extent of his output.
 
@SD, I recall another thread where Dark649 brought up that Roshi's moon busting feat was calculated at 5-B and Relativistic making it on par with what Saiyan saga Piccolo currently scales from. But, that's more of an indicator of an outlier for Roshi.
 
Is Goku's Super Kamehameha's PL of 910 from the Piccolo Jr. Saga accepted here? That's the PL given by Weekly Jump #31, 1991 and it's on the db fandom. The Kamehameha he used against Raditz had a PL of 924 and I would postulate it was stronger than the nameless, casual ki blast Piccolo used to bust the moon in DBZ.
 
Power levels are used more as stronger than or weaker than comparisons. With planet level Saiyan saga characters in the thousands, it doesn't scale linearly especially those with a PL of 5.
 
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