Possible Dragon Ball (pre-Z) upgrade revolving around Kami

[Purgy]

I don't think he should get a possibly, there's more evidence to say Kami didn't restore it himself than there is to say he did.

 

[AstralKing7]

If he didn't do it himself he shouldn't get the rating since we don't know how he did it

 

[Adem_Warlock69]

But SomebodyData is bringing up some good points to why Shenron Doing it wouldn't make sense

 

[Purgy]

The dragon balls were used just before the training (leaving them inert for a year into the training) and used during the tournament (meaning they couldn't have been used for the last year of the training). So its really at most 1 years time and it would have had to been without anyone noticing, which again, is unlikely given that Kami lacks the dragon radar and would have turned the whole world black.

Goku was training with Kami for 3 years iirc, so there's a year in there where the Dragon Balls could have been used. I think you said that but I'm just going to reiterate it.

Just because Toriyama didn't have characters reacting to or recounting memories of seeing the sky go dark doesn't mean it didn't happen, considering the probable wish happened off screen it would be quite strange for Toriyama to have characters recall it years later.

 

[AKM sama]

So its really at most 1 years time and it would have had to been without anyone noticing, which again, is unlikely given that Kami lacks the dragon radar and would have turned the whole world black.

According to his profile, that is a weakness. If I remember correctly that's the reason he can't bring back the dead twice.

Kami recreated it before Goku's training tho, it was like a reset. (And I don't remember them being used during the tournament?) Popo gathered the balls pretty quickly during the Namek saga so I wouldn't put it beside him. And nobody noticing or not acknowledging it doesn't necessary disprove its use.

According to DB wiki, it only applies on reviving the dead more than once, not the wishes. And I'm pretty sure that is the actual case, but somebody should surely check it in the manga.

 

[Antvasima]

I have to unsubscribe from this thread due to time constraints. You can notify me later via my message wall if you need my help after you have reached a conclusion.

 

[Kepekley23]

Shenlong being unable to grant the same wish twice is headcanon. The only weakness that is stated is that he's unable to revive the dead twice.

The idea that the entire world's sky turns black whenever the Dragon Balls appear is also headcanon. It was only implied to be the case with Porunga, not Shenlong. Considering the Dragon Balls are consistently being summoned on a world full of humans, the sky turning black worldwide for a considerable span of time would create problems narratively, to say the least.

 

[Purgy]

Also agree with what Kepekley said, I don't recall it being stated the entire sky turns black around the planet and not just in the immediate vicinity, also it's likely they were used on Kami's lookout and I wonder how that would work due to being at such high altitude to the point where I'm pretty sure they're above the clouds etc.

 

[Kepekley23]

> also it's likely they were used on Kami's lookout

This is a very good point.

Kami's Lookout was originally an alternate dimension only bridged to the Earth by Goku's Power Pole, located far above Korin's Tower. And since even Korin's Tower is incredibly high into the sky (tall enough that planes would run out of fuel before even reaching its halfway point, according to Uupa), it is incredibly unlikely that the "atmosphere-darkening" effects of the Dragon Ball would have been noticed by anyone, even buying into the unproven speculation that it darkens the whole world.

 

[SomebodyData]

@AKM they had to revive Piccolo Jr's victims shortly after the tournament.

If he recreated the moon before the training then that makes Shenron impossible since it hadn't been a year since Piccolo regained his youth.

Are we shown Popo gathering the dragon balls? Since Bulma's on Earth I always assumed he got a dragon radar to do so.

@Kep

I see, but if we're going by that translation, it would imply that the kamehameha used to shatter the moon is different from Roshi's regular kamehamehas wouldn't it? That would stop making it an outlier, since it wouldn't scale to regular attacks by Roshi and by extension King Piccolo's anti-feat. Regardless, it would still be calling the attack stronger than a moon-shattering attack specifically.

I have no access to the manga, but I do remember the anime showing Shenron's effect crossed all the way from Bulma's place to the tournament in the Buu Saga.

Also In ROF (movie ver), Frieza's henchmen were concerned that they would be noticed by the Saiyans because of their use of Shenro. (10:11-11:00)

 

[SomebodyData]

That jet part makes it sound like a good feat to calc later but as far as I'm aware, its unproven speculation that what happens to the atmosphere near the hideout doesn't translate to the Earth, I also don't remember it ever being called a pocket reality,

 

[Kepekley23]

> I see, but if we're going by that translation, it would imply that the kamehameha used to shatter the moon is different from Roshi's regular kamehamehas wouldn't it? That would stop making it an outlier, since it wouldn't scale to regular attacks by Roshi and by extension King Piccolo's anti-feat. Regardless, it would still be calling the attack stronger than a moon-shattering attack specifically.

This translation is attributing the moon-shattering power to a "normal Kamehameha", and then scaling the Super Kamehameha upwards from it. If normal Kamehameha being moon-shattering is considered inconsistent, which it rather undeniably is, it doesn't make sense to scale the Super Kamehameha from it, either.

> I have no access to the manga, but I do remember the anime showing Shenron's effect crossed all the way from Bulma's place to the tournament in the Buu Saga.

Fairly sure this is anime-only and that the manga cuts to Goku teleporting to the area to ask Shenron to leave.

> Also In ROF (movie ver), Frieza's henchmen were concerned that they would be noticed by the Saiyans because of their use of Shenron. (10:11-11:00)

Noticed by Saiyans who had mastered the art of sensing ki, not the pre-Saiyan Saga Z Warriors who were still on their baby steps in comparison.

 

[Purgy]

After reading through the manga, specifically instances where Shenron was summoned, the visible sky is completely dark in all instances. Even the sky above Kami's lookout is dark after Shenron is summoned on the ground. So my initial idea that it might not have been visible, was wrong.


I still think it's unreasonable to disregard the idea that Kami used Shenron simply because Yamcha and Krillin didn't comment on the sky turning dark years later.

 

[Kepekley23]

In the end, this is just a battle between two rampant and unbacked speculative theories. Kami restoring the Moon requires more assumptions than him summoning Shenron, however.

 

[SomebodyData]

We're currently only considering it inconsistent because of King Piccolo's strongest attack right? Which in turn is consistent only if we don't consider Kami's / this statement. So doesn't it seem like the premise is being used to prove the premise? Regardless, it did destroy the moon, that much is undeniable, while we consider it an outlier the statement does make note that the Super Kamehameha is > moon shattering. I could understand the argument if it only mentioned the attack without the moon shattering part, but it seems hard to disagree that the Super Kamehameha is meant to be moon level.

Possibly. Like I said, I don't have the manga on me right now. Here's something I found when I did a search tho.

They have no way of knowing that the Z-Fighters can sense ki, nor do they have any high ki either.

 

[Leon_Help4]

5-C Kami is legit based on the evidence and the lack of proof of him using the dragon balls. (Not to mention whoever claims that he did use them is under burden of proof.)

I just love how quick are the mods to "reject" a pretty clear cut feat for Dragon Ball when it is consistent with the daizenshuu statements.

 

[Kepekley23]

> We're currently only considering it inconsistent because of King Piccolo's strongest attack right? Which in turn is consistent only if we don't consider Kami's / this statement.

Kami doesn't actually have this feat to begin with. You are speculating that he did it instead of Shenron.

> Possibly. Like I said, I don't have the manga on me right now. Here's something I found when I did a search tho.

This was a city block's radius. It in no way proves worldwide scale.

> They have no way of knowing that the Z-Fighters can sense ki, nor do they have any high ki either.

I. Freeza is well aware that the Z Warriors are capable of sensing ki, and since he sent both of them into this mission, he obviously informed them of what they should be wary of. The Z Fighters being capable of sensing their energy would be at the very top of the list.

II. Their ki is pretty immense compared to nearly every other being in the planet, and the Z Warriors have sensed far, far lower kis than theirs from much wider distances.

 

[Kepekley23]

> 5-C Kami is legit based on the evidence and the lack of proof of him using the dragon balls. (Not to mention whoever claims that he did use them is under burden of proof.)

This is not how basic debating, burden of proof, or Occam's Razor work.

If Kami has access to the Dragon Balls, items that have actually been shown as capable of easily restoring celestial bodies far bigger than the Moon, and there is nothing suggesting he did not use them, the standard assumption is that he used them.

No out-of-universe evidence points to him restoring the Moon under his own powers. You're the one who has to prove that.

 

[SomebodyData]

Kami says he recreated the moon, the speculation is that he used Shenron to do it.

Sorry wrong one.

Frieza is dead though? They hadn't communicated in years.

Any examples? They were considering extremely weak weren't they?

 

[Purgy]

The biggest speculation here is assuming Kami did something he's never shown to have the ability nor AP to do instead of using the Dragon Balls which have been shown to be able to do things exactly like this.

 

[SomebodyData]

No he has the ability. @Purgy Actually, hold on, when did Shenron recreate the moon (for your AP part)?

 

[Purgy]

Btw, Kami never said "I recreated the Moon", Goku says "Kami wanted the Moon back". Pretty significant difference.

 

[SomebodyData]

Not sure I trust the translation given its not official, but if Herms said it, nvm. Though can you say where you got the scan, may make searching for stuff easier.

 

[Purgy]

No he has the ability. @Purgy Actually, hold on, when did Shenron recreate the moon (for your AP part)?

Now that you mention it I can't remember when Shenron remade a Moon or Planet.

@Kepekley You said they restored celestial bodies bigger than the Moon?

 

[Purgy]

Not sure I trust the translation given its not official, but if Herms said it, nvm. Though can you say where you got the scan, may make searching for stuff easier.

Are sites that host Manga scans allowed to be linked here? Better safe than sorry.

 

[SomebodyData]

Oof, nvm then.

 

[Purgy]

Oh, Porunga remade Earth.

So wish granting Dragons can perform such feats.

 

[SomebodyData]

And hold on, even assuming Shenron can recreate the moon, why are we assuming he's a glass cannon and breaking all the verse's rules?

Sounds like an attempt to keep King Piccolo 7-B consistent rather than inconsistent.

@Purgy but why would he scale to Shenron, when we don't even consider the mechanics (such as affecting the planet with darkness) to be the same?

 

[Adem_Warlock69]

Oh, Porunga remade Earth.
So wish granting Dragons can perform such feats.

Isn't porunga far above Shenron ?

 

[Purgy]

And hold on, even assuming Shenron can recreate the moon, why are we assuming he's a glass cannon and breaking all the verse's rules?
Sounds like an attempt to keep King Piccolo 7-B consistent rather than inconsistent.

Is there any reason to assume Shenron's magic abilities would scale to his durability? Seems kinda weird to scale King Piccolo who is currently 7-B to 5-B even though he has no other feats placing him there.

 

[Purgy]

I don't recall it being stated Porunga is above Shenron, only that Porunga can grant 3 wishes instead of one (That's not relevant to the power).

 

[SomebodyData]

You're probably right, strangely though I vaguely remember that keeping his body requires his magic so he can't stay very long. That would scale with the reason (Uses his magic to maintain his body, which will use his magic up quickly), but I don't have any scans, maybe give me a day or two? (Or if you got the manga hosting site and have an idea of what I'm saying, you may be able to find it).

Well we have the Roshi feat (outlier, because of Piccolo speciifcally), his own statement of being able to destroy 1/40 something of the Earth at a time, if he scales to Shenron there's that too.

 

[Purgy]

You're probably right, strangely though I vaguely remember that keeping his body requires his magic so he can't stay very long. That would scale with the reason (Uses his magic to maintain his body, which will use his magic up quickly), but I don't have any scans, maybe give me a day or two? (Or if you got the manga hosting site and have an idea of what I'm saying, you may be able to find it).
Well we have the Roshi feat (outlier, because of Piccolo speciifcally), his own statement of being able to destroy 1/40 something of the Earth at a time, if he scales to Shenron there's that too.

I can link you the place to read the Manga, I'm just not sure if it's against the rules here or something.

 

[Adem_Warlock69]

Well Shenron couldn't effect Vegeta and Nappa in any way, But Porunga could effect a stronger Vegeta

 

[Purgy]

That's ignoring a lot of context.

Pretty sure Kami was referring to killing Vegeta with Shenron, and he didn't even say it wouldn't work as a fact, just that it might not.

Porunga teleported a willing near dead Vegeta to Earth iirc.

Two completely different situations.

 

[AKM sama]

Did somebody find the scan where Shenron's weakness of not being able to revive the same person more than once was said? We'll need to update his weakness on the profile.

 

[Leon_Help4]

King Piccolo's city busting was a threat. It was never stated to have used a lot of his strenght or if it even remotely was "his strongest attack." He was literally blowing them up to threaten the people into not opposing his reign.

Read the manga before downplaying.

 

[SomebodyData]

@Purgy best not to mess with the site's rules, might ask you on chat if you're avaliable tomorrow tho.

@Leon you got scans? If it turns out you're right we'd have to change the scaling a lot lol, but this is rather derailing from the actual thread.

 

[SomebodyData]

Bump

Not sure people realize this, but the thread may change the entire scaling for the latter half of OG Dragon Ball.

 

[AKM sama]

I still think there is no definitive evidence of Kami doing it himself, and it's much more likely that Shenron did it.