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I meant in S/M.
Unless he was talking about the Gen 4 games?
Unless he was talking about the Gen 4 games?
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Pokemon Trainer Revisions (Revised)
- Thread starter Amexim
- Start date
- Status
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- 365
- Thread starter
- #42
I was talking about the statement from the Gen 4 games, which is the same dimension that Cyrus is from. Whether it's in S/M is irrelevant, because it's true in the continuity regardless.
The idea that their "physical forms" can have multiple copies and be bound by time makes the concept kind of dubious-- can you show me a statement that says they are physical avatars?
As for the Pokéball/Game mechanics argument-- you can't really call it game mechanics when it's in the story. You can't just default to an outlier or PIS immediately when anything crazy happens. Those arguments only hold water when there are blatant feats, powers, and/or points contradicting it. You can't tell me it's PIS for a Pokémon trainer to catch Arceus or the True God Pokémon in a Pokéball when villains have caught the Dialga and Palkia in the Story. And characters scaling to powerful extra dimensional beings by doing comparatively mundane shit isn't an argument-- because that's the same logic saying that a normal human girl from some Verse with High Hax can harm Ultra Instinct Goku on principal.
Fallacious argument, though I agree with it. However, me being fallacious as well doesn't make the logic true, right? To say that "the reasons it's an outlier should be obvious" is also a fallacious argument as you're trying to appeal to a commonly held view, without first considering if it's flawed. I could talk about how making appeals like that don't work in reference to things like Religion for example. But either way, the feats that are flawed in Canon need more of a reason for them to be dismissed than incredulity.
The idea that their "physical forms" can have multiple copies and be bound by time makes the concept kind of dubious-- can you show me a statement that says they are physical avatars?
As for the Pokéball/Game mechanics argument-- you can't really call it game mechanics when it's in the story. You can't just default to an outlier or PIS immediately when anything crazy happens. Those arguments only hold water when there are blatant feats, powers, and/or points contradicting it. You can't tell me it's PIS for a Pokémon trainer to catch Arceus or the True God Pokémon in a Pokéball when villains have caught the Dialga and Palkia in the Story. And characters scaling to powerful extra dimensional beings by doing comparatively mundane shit isn't an argument-- because that's the same logic saying that a normal human girl from some Verse with High Hax can harm Ultra Instinct Goku on principal.
Fallacious argument, though I agree with it. However, me being fallacious as well doesn't make the logic true, right? To say that "the reasons it's an outlier should be obvious" is also a fallacious argument as you're trying to appeal to a commonly held view, without first considering if it's flawed. I could talk about how making appeals like that don't work in reference to things like Religion for example. But either way, the feats that are flawed in Canon need more of a reason for them to be dismissed than incredulity.
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No it isn't. S/M Cyrus is the one that succesfully creates his new world with Dialga/Palkia, D/P/Platinum Cyrus doesn't. All the team bossess who succesfuly complete their goals with no 10 yr old protags running around are from different universes than the other games where they failed.
Why would a statement be needed? Them being the concepts in their true form otherwise is enough proof, but if need a little more, you can refer to the anime part as well.
Not in an actual cutscene it is, which would certainly be canon. My problem isn't pokemon in general being captured by pokeballs as thats obviously a part of the verse's concept. It's the legendaries being caught that do, especially regarding the CT, when there supposed to be mon ridiculously above the average ones trainers can catch themselves. The difference between this and your example (Why a normal human girl?) is the girl would be using hax that Goku isn't resistant to and can work on him. But in this case, we're trying to say trainers who literally only get stronger by beating gyms/trials, and beat random trainers along the way, can suddenly match up against pokemon who's power isn't something they can ever possibly hope to reach with said training. At the very least, it being pokemon who, as 2-B, are blatently beyond the scope of the verse by an infinite amount. No amount of training pokemon can acomplish that and If we can pass off every anti-feat instance of the CT being challenged by fodder and somehow struggling as PIS, then the same should be done here with the protagonist and trainers. Unless every protag ever should be upgraded to the legendaries tier because in their respective game they can either catch or beat them?
Yeah lets leave Religion out of this please. That will instantly escalate things.
Why would a statement be needed? Them being the concepts in their true form otherwise is enough proof, but if need a little more, you can refer to the anime part as well.
Not in an actual cutscene it is, which would certainly be canon. My problem isn't pokemon in general being captured by pokeballs as thats obviously a part of the verse's concept. It's the legendaries being caught that do, especially regarding the CT, when there supposed to be mon ridiculously above the average ones trainers can catch themselves. The difference between this and your example (Why a normal human girl?) is the girl would be using hax that Goku isn't resistant to and can work on him. But in this case, we're trying to say trainers who literally only get stronger by beating gyms/trials, and beat random trainers along the way, can suddenly match up against pokemon who's power isn't something they can ever possibly hope to reach with said training. At the very least, it being pokemon who, as 2-B, are blatently beyond the scope of the verse by an infinite amount. No amount of training pokemon can acomplish that and If we can pass off every anti-feat instance of the CT being challenged by fodder and somehow struggling as PIS, then the same should be done here with the protagonist and trainers. Unless every protag ever should be upgraded to the legendaries tier because in their respective game they can either catch or beat them?
Yeah lets leave Religion out of this please. That will instantly escalate things.
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It is directly stated that Giratina is basically the avatar of the Distortion World and Arceus the avatar of the original spirit, it is pretty obvious that Palkia and Dialga are the physical avatars of time and space, especially because in myths they are called directly "time" and "space".
Also Cyrus has captured Dialga or Palkia thanks to the red chain, which absolutely subjugates Dialga and Palkia.
Also in Pokemon Generations it shows how Dialga and Palkia after being released from the red chain they return to their non-corporeal state.
Also Cyrus has captured Dialga or Palkia thanks to the red chain, which absolutely subjugates Dialga and Palkia.
Also in Pokemon Generations it shows how Dialga and Palkia after being released from the red chain they return to their non-corporeal state.
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- Thread starter
- #45
Non-sequitor: How does Cyrus's victory negate the statement that catching these two pokémon in Pokéballs restricts their true power? Unless we're going to say that we can't assume things are consistent across the timelines-- which means that we don't know if there is an Arceus in Sun and Moon's universe-- I don't think that's a good idea, because it seems like an unnecessary amount of scrutiny to tear apart things that are probably true as it relates to this situation (based off of the fact that we know that the regions are all on the same planet and that the Pokemon are all in the same dimension).
Them being the concepts in physical form would, thankfully, negate associated claims before, so that's solid thanks to those statements.
However, this doesn't change the fact that your argument surrounding the Trainers not being able to catch/defeat/scale to the CT (suppressed or not) is fallacious. You say that my example is different because the hax from the mundane human girl can affect Goku. Where is the stated and demonstrated proof in verse that explicitly shows that the CT cannot ever be caught in Pokéballs? How do you explain the characters beating legends into submission and catching them without them being on the level? At this point, we're creating plot holes with our stuff.
You're making fallacious and contradictory arguments-- that I personally agree with but understand that they aren't logical and are based in my own opinion and the idea that it seems incredulous to be able to even catch Dialga, Palkia, Giratina, or Arceus and have their be multiple timelines of their existences.
Them being the concepts in physical form would, thankfully, negate associated claims before, so that's solid thanks to those statements.
However, this doesn't change the fact that your argument surrounding the Trainers not being able to catch/defeat/scale to the CT (suppressed or not) is fallacious. You say that my example is different because the hax from the mundane human girl can affect Goku. Where is the stated and demonstrated proof in verse that explicitly shows that the CT cannot ever be caught in Pokéballs? How do you explain the characters beating legends into submission and catching them without them being on the level? At this point, we're creating plot holes with our stuff.
You're making fallacious and contradictory arguments-- that I personally agree with but understand that they aren't logical and are based in my own opinion and the idea that it seems incredulous to be able to even catch Dialga, Palkia, Giratina, or Arceus and have their be multiple timelines of their existences.
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That was only to counter you saying both universes were in the same exact continuity. As far as Cyrus's pokeball statements go, I honestly see one very big issue regarding it.
Obviously we all know that when trainers catch pokemon with pokeballs, they do so by battling the pokemon in question and weaken them to the point where they can be caught (otherwise they'll just break out). Unless Cyrus is specifically refering to the master ball (which even that failed to catch Palkia and fodders way below it), by saying their power are restricted when caught by a pokeball is him implying that any of the CT can be fought against by fodders and weakened to the point where they can even be caught at all. Him implying this would have to be factual or else Cyrus would never claim such a thing in the 1st place. Taking this into account would mean 1 of 2 things:
Either the CT are all on the level of the lower legendaries and pokemon owned by trainers, or every single trainer and their mother are 2-B since they, by this logic, can weaken the trio to the point of pokeball capture....
And of course neither of those things are true. Which is why im starting to believe Cyrus's pokeball statement is just an incorrect one altogether. Of course he is an intelligent source, no doubt about that. But his word isn't absolute 100% of the time. And unless we want 2-B Pikachu's, Lucario's or Charizards (fun ovo) I think we need to disregard it all together as Cyrus undermining the legendaries power to such a degree for him to think the balls can capture them against their will. But thats just me.
Obviously we all know that when trainers catch pokemon with pokeballs, they do so by battling the pokemon in question and weaken them to the point where they can be caught (otherwise they'll just break out). Unless Cyrus is specifically refering to the master ball (which even that failed to catch Palkia and fodders way below it), by saying their power are restricted when caught by a pokeball is him implying that any of the CT can be fought against by fodders and weakened to the point where they can even be caught at all. Him implying this would have to be factual or else Cyrus would never claim such a thing in the 1st place. Taking this into account would mean 1 of 2 things:
Either the CT are all on the level of the lower legendaries and pokemon owned by trainers, or every single trainer and their mother are 2-B since they, by this logic, can weaken the trio to the point of pokeball capture....
And of course neither of those things are true. Which is why im starting to believe Cyrus's pokeball statement is just an incorrect one altogether. Of course he is an intelligent source, no doubt about that. But his word isn't absolute 100% of the time. And unless we want 2-B Pikachu's, Lucario's or Charizards (fun ovo) I think we need to disregard it all together as Cyrus undermining the legendaries power to such a degree for him to think the balls can capture them against their will. But thats just me.
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Or the pokeball weakens when caught.
No need ta do mental workout or gymnastics .
The quote exists not just because.
No need ta do mental workout or gymnastics .
The quote exists not just because.
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Game Cyrus directly talks about having successfully created his perfect world in USUM, so even assuming they were weakened, his legendaries would be at least Low 2-C from that feat.
Really all I'm gonna say.
Really all I'm gonna say.
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If Cyrus has captured Dialga or Palkia, it's all thanks to the red chai.
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Not quite, he could have caught the duo.
After.
Chain>new world>pokeball.
After.
Chain>new world>pokeball.
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I mean, Cyrus was able to capture Dialga and Palkia because they didn't resist. The red chain subdued them.
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@Azathoth
Nah that wouldnt change their tier, they'd still be 2-B and it'd just be another feat to add in their arsenal.
@J-man
Except thats blatently going against what all Pokeballs do, sans a masterball. A quote being a thing doesnt change that.
A pokemon cannot be caught without being weakened or fought in battle, unless they of course let themselves be caught (this has happened in-game before like with Latios and Latias in ORAS). For Cyrus to believe for even a second that the time-space pokemon can be weakened by others to a point where a ball can hold them highly suggests he's undermining their strength. Or else again, the CT are suddenly on the levels of fodder or every pokemon from trainers and their mother become 2-B. And either option is just straight up ridiculous.
Hence, for me, I think we should just disregard it all-together.
Nah that wouldnt change their tier, they'd still be 2-B and it'd just be another feat to add in their arsenal.
@J-man
Except thats blatently going against what all Pokeballs do, sans a masterball. A quote being a thing doesnt change that.
A pokemon cannot be caught without being weakened or fought in battle, unless they of course let themselves be caught (this has happened in-game before like with Latios and Latias in ORAS). For Cyrus to believe for even a second that the time-space pokemon can be weakened by others to a point where a ball can hold them highly suggests he's undermining their strength. Or else again, the CT are suddenly on the levels of fodder or every pokemon from trainers and their mother become 2-B. And either option is just straight up ridiculous.
Hence, for me, I think we should just disregard it all-together.
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Or.
Red chain made no resistance. Pokebal, bam, caught and this weakened.
Explicitly stated. And we actually visually see both in balls.
Us can not just go Nah PIS for everything .
Red chain made no resistance. Pokebal, bam, caught and this weakened.
Explicitly stated. And we actually visually see both in balls.
Us can not just go Nah PIS for everything .
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The problem with that is why even put them in pokeballs after already capturing them with the Red chain?
As far as S/M Cyrus goes, there's no protag to stop him. So all he'd need is the red chain, a pokeball at that point is worthless.
As far as S/M Cyrus goes, there's no protag to stop him. So all he'd need is the red chain, a pokeball at that point is worthless.
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Portability.
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@J-Man
Cyrus has Dialga and Palkia captured in a pokeball, what I mean is that Cyrus could capture them in a pokeball because he had them under control.
Cyrus has Dialga and Palkia captured in a pokeball, what I mean is that Cyrus could capture them in a pokeball because he had them under control.
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Well... US and UM's protagonists fights Legendaries throughout their entire journey, and debatably has the most Legendary Scaling within game , if not ANY pokemon game :
- 4 Times fighting Poipole, a confirmed UB-Level enemy .
- Stated you have to be Champion-Level Power to take on the Beasts anyways.[ Stated by the ultra Retcon Squad Post-Story , with Hau taking on the Ultra Beasts as well... AKA he was the Champion ... And he did well against them, albeit wasn't strong as the protagonists, proving they were at least accurate. ] .
- Fighting Necrozma twice and won canonically, a third time including U.Necrozma... But i'm not here for that.
- Fighting Sivally twice and won canonically .
- Fighting Nihilego.
- Outright besting Anabel twice who canonically uses Legendaries in her Battle Tree fight .
- His whole adventure inside the Rainbow Rocket Arc.
The difference is, if you noticed in-game if you ever played or watched the full walkthough , is how casually the protagonist best everything in-verse. According to multiple statements, he was able to do everything in the game, in-story, very easy without effort, despite game mechanics.
- 4 Times fighting Poipole, a confirmed UB-Level enemy .
- Stated you have to be Champion-Level Power to take on the Beasts anyways.[ Stated by the ultra Retcon Squad Post-Story , with Hau taking on the Ultra Beasts as well... AKA he was the Champion ... And he did well against them, albeit wasn't strong as the protagonists, proving they were at least accurate. ] .
- Fighting Necrozma twice and won canonically, a third time including U.Necrozma... But i'm not here for that.
- Fighting Sivally twice and won canonically .
- Fighting Nihilego.
- Outright besting Anabel twice who canonically uses Legendaries in her Battle Tree fight .
- His whole adventure inside the Rainbow Rocket Arc.
The difference is, if you noticed in-game if you ever played or watched the full walkthough , is how casually the protagonist best everything in-verse. According to multiple statements, he was able to do everything in the game, in-story, very easy without effort, despite game mechanics.
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Nah got ya, talking ta kukui.NeoZex6399 said:
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Could someone summarize for moi, plz?
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I don't see why he'd have the need to carry them around with him. If its his perfect world, he's basically ruler of it all.
Especially with no 10 yr olds around to try and stop him.
Especially with no 10 yr olds around to try and stop him.
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For the same reason Lysandre has captured Yveltal.
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Pocket Monster.
Why not keep the duo.
Why not keep the duo.
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[Ignored]
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Cuz Cyrus's trainer days are over ovo
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@Cal
It's a bit complicated. My apologies but you may have to read the thread over. Halfway, not the full thing tho.
It's a bit complicated. My apologies but you may have to read the thread over. Halfway, not the full thing tho.
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Kukui, you present a false dichotomy here:
"Either the CT are all on the level of the lower legendaries and pokemon owned by trainers, or every single trainer and their mother are 2-B since they, by this logic, can weaken the trio to the point of pokeball capture...."
Clearly the third option is that the trainer's pokemon scales to Ultra Necrozma and that the Legends are just below Necrozma. And, only trained Pokémon could ever be 2-B, if at all. Also, when has the Master Ball canonically failed to catch "Fodder below Palkia" aside from Ultra Beasts (because pokéballs don't work on them because of their foreign biology...? Which makes the capture of Deoxys an awkward one because he's literally an alien). As for the idea that Palkia/Dialga cannot be caught against there will, how do you explain his possession of them. It's also Canon that he used the master ball too btw.
"Either the CT are all on the level of the lower legendaries and pokemon owned by trainers, or every single trainer and their mother are 2-B since they, by this logic, can weaken the trio to the point of pokeball capture...."
Clearly the third option is that the trainer's pokemon scales to Ultra Necrozma and that the Legends are just below Necrozma. And, only trained Pokémon could ever be 2-B, if at all. Also, when has the Master Ball canonically failed to catch "Fodder below Palkia" aside from Ultra Beasts (because pokéballs don't work on them because of their foreign biology...? Which makes the capture of Deoxys an awkward one because he's literally an alien). As for the idea that Palkia/Dialga cannot be caught against there will, how do you explain his possession of them. It's also Canon that he used the master ball too btw.
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Finally, why can't the protagonists and characters scale to 2-B? Why is it impossible for Trainers to weaken the CT? This is literally an argument from incredulity-- just because it's ridiculous doesn't make it untrue, and we have information all around Sun and Moon to support it.
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For the masterball stuff, Palkia smacks it away in the manga with Hareyta. And in anime, a Whisclash literally eats one like its a snack.
Anyways, first point is wrong because that was regarding the pokeball stuff. If Cyrus is implying the CT can be caught in balls, then he is implying any trainer with their pokemon in general could come and harm the CT to the point where they can capture them, hence why I listed those 2 options Ultra Necro scaling is a different case that I don't have an opinion on right now (might even be fine with it but depends on what others say).
And why can't they scale? That should.....kinda be obvious. It would upgrade literally majority of the whole verse to 2-B, which practically makes it an entire show of outliers. Trainers who get stronger by beating (from the trio's point of view) fodders, gyms, trials and such can't suddenly jump entire tiers, tiers also infinitely beyond others, to damage the CT. This is simply another instance of CT being subjigated to inconsistency that we pass off as PIS and this is no different the way I see it. Heck, if we accepted trainers scaling to legendaries all the time like this the trainers would be there already, So unless we want 2-B random people with [Insert here] pokemon, I don't think I need to explain any further on why this is incredibly incorrect.
Anyways, first point is wrong because that was regarding the pokeball stuff. If Cyrus is implying the CT can be caught in balls, then he is implying any trainer with their pokemon in general could come and harm the CT to the point where they can capture them, hence why I listed those 2 options Ultra Necro scaling is a different case that I don't have an opinion on right now (might even be fine with it but depends on what others say).
And why can't they scale? That should.....kinda be obvious. It would upgrade literally majority of the whole verse to 2-B, which practically makes it an entire show of outliers. Trainers who get stronger by beating (from the trio's point of view) fodders, gyms, trials and such can't suddenly jump entire tiers, tiers also infinitely beyond others, to damage the CT. This is simply another instance of CT being subjigated to inconsistency that we pass off as PIS and this is no different the way I see it. Heck, if we accepted trainers scaling to legendaries all the time like this the trainers would be there already, So unless we want 2-B random people with [Insert here] pokemon, I don't think I need to explain any further on why this is incredibly incorrect.
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Your last paragraph isn't saying anything. From my perspective, all of that would be true. And it would be consistent. From the CT's perspective as well as the actual Verse in the last paragraph you say would be Canon. Why is it inconsistent, really? Because I think the idea that there's no limits to TRAINED Pokemon (as this would only apply to important trainers who actually fight against the protagonists, if at all, considering most of the time the protagonists are effortlessly defeating everyone and everything.) actually fits in with everything.
You keep saying that it's obvious that it's inconsistent, and that the whole verse can't be 2-B-- with no real evidence or argument that's not a fallacy. So what if everyone who scales to the legend wielding protagonist trainer is Legendary Tier-- if they even scale at all! Hell, I think that they might not really scale because we could write any battles where the protagonist one and canonically had a Legend on the team as a STOMP! They don't even have to really scale, but I'm arguing to point out how this logic we're using doesn't make sense.
You showing me that everyone would be Legend Tier isn't an argument-- you're literally trying to appeal to the idea that X claim must be false because X means that Y is true, and Y is ridiculous. This thought process only works if Y cannot be true at all, when the games show that it is. As for the Master Ball shenanigans, I think THOSE are the real PIS. When you really check the Anime, when (besides that one time in the beginning with Ash and Pidgey, and that Pidgey still broke out of its ball by the way) has a basic pokémon ever gotten captured against it's will? There probably were some instances, but those were already inconsistent within the lore anyway, as in other places, we see Pokémon get hit with Pokéballs and get caught, whereas in other places, Pokémon knock back pokéballs with PHYSICAL CONTACT all the time, regardless of their level or the pokéball used. So to say that is an example of how Pokéballs are fodder isn't necessarily a good argument when in THOSE mediums specifically, the process of obtaining a Pokémon is already filled with weird shit anyway.
It's weird shit, because that means that no pokémon should ever be caught in a Pokéball ever because they can just knock it away. Like, no, by your logic, Pokéballs can't catch ANYTHING, including fodder!
TL
R; Just because everyone in their mother becomes 2-B doesn't make my argument invalid. You're trying to make an appeal to emotion by pointing out how absurd it sounds, which is an argument of incredulity as well, and a FALLACY! The only way that works is if it's IMPOSSIBLE for trainers to fight, weaken, capture, or even remotely harm CT in any way-- and it is only TRAINED PKMN that could get the scaling IF ANY in the first place. And we know that in the game's it isn't true that it's impossible to harm a legend, and every other instance of it happening in the CT's case is CONVENIENTLY (or correctly?) PIS when it comes to the anime. It's not based in any fact, your argument.
You keep saying that it's obvious that it's inconsistent, and that the whole verse can't be 2-B-- with no real evidence or argument that's not a fallacy. So what if everyone who scales to the legend wielding protagonist trainer is Legendary Tier-- if they even scale at all! Hell, I think that they might not really scale because we could write any battles where the protagonist one and canonically had a Legend on the team as a STOMP! They don't even have to really scale, but I'm arguing to point out how this logic we're using doesn't make sense.
You showing me that everyone would be Legend Tier isn't an argument-- you're literally trying to appeal to the idea that X claim must be false because X means that Y is true, and Y is ridiculous. This thought process only works if Y cannot be true at all, when the games show that it is. As for the Master Ball shenanigans, I think THOSE are the real PIS. When you really check the Anime, when (besides that one time in the beginning with Ash and Pidgey, and that Pidgey still broke out of its ball by the way) has a basic pokémon ever gotten captured against it's will? There probably were some instances, but those were already inconsistent within the lore anyway, as in other places, we see Pokémon get hit with Pokéballs and get caught, whereas in other places, Pokémon knock back pokéballs with PHYSICAL CONTACT all the time, regardless of their level or the pokéball used. So to say that is an example of how Pokéballs are fodder isn't necessarily a good argument when in THOSE mediums specifically, the process of obtaining a Pokémon is already filled with weird shit anyway.
It's weird shit, because that means that no pokémon should ever be caught in a Pokéball ever because they can just knock it away. Like, no, by your logic, Pokéballs can't catch ANYTHING, including fodder!
TL
R; Just because everyone in their mother becomes 2-B doesn't make my argument invalid. You're trying to make an appeal to emotion by pointing out how absurd it sounds, which is an argument of incredulity as well, and a FALLACY! The only way that works is if it's IMPOSSIBLE for trainers to fight, weaken, capture, or even remotely harm CT in any way-- and it is only TRAINED PKMN that could get the scaling IF ANY in the first place. And we know that in the game's it isn't true that it's impossible to harm a legend, and every other instance of it happening in the CT's case is CONVENIENTLY (or correctly?) PIS when it comes to the anime. It's not based in any fact, your argument.
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And, as for the method by which they attained this Strength-- that's irrelevant. Caulifla didn't train. Yet, somehow, she, Kale, Cabba, and pretty much everyone else is Universal. The method in which she got her power doesn't negate the truth and what she has clearly DEMONSTRATED.
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And LASTLY Kukui, as for the Ultra Necrozma Scaling, make up your OWN MIND please. This is a site that is supposed to be based in facts (ideally). What everyone else thinks to be true doesn't make it true. This is the perfect example-- I'm assuming no one challenged the idea that no one scales to the CT because the idea of Tier 1-A Arceus level pokémon trainers SOUNDED absurd. That doesn't make it true. And if changing that is "off limits" or some shit, then that's a huge wiki issue, because that means no one can point out faulty logic for what it is. Ugh.
Think for yourself. Please. Honestly, since we have the statement for Cyrus, I think we should go for the Ultra Necrozma Scaling which only applies to Cyrus because he wielded one of the CT. Every other battle with the Aqua, Magma, Plasma, and Flare bosses can be assumed to be an absolute stomp-- and if you want to make the protagonists normal mons consistent, we can make the normal mons Continent level because of the Weather Duo belonging to Archie and Maxie in game.
Think for yourself. Please. Honestly, since we have the statement for Cyrus, I think we should go for the Ultra Necrozma Scaling which only applies to Cyrus because he wielded one of the CT. Every other battle with the Aqua, Magma, Plasma, and Flare bosses can be assumed to be an absolute stomp-- and if you want to make the protagonists normal mons consistent, we can make the normal mons Continent level because of the Weather Duo belonging to Archie and Maxie in game.
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For one, ease up on the comments please. Whatever you need to say can either be shortned or placed in one reply at a time so this thread doesnt get any longer than it should.
Two, again, the U.N. scaling is the least of whats on my concern regarding these revisions so I don't have an opinon on that atm. And i'd rather wait to see what others think for it before making my own. There is nothing wrong with that.
Third, you do realize what you are trying to imply here right? Im not going to repeat any more stuff that I already said so i'll make this short. Your basically saying that every single trainer and their pokemon in the entire verse should become 2-B because of this, which is still completely 100% ridiculous. The very fact it upgrades majority of the verse to such inflated levels should scream outlier to you. We have never accepted something as massive as this and as far as I know, we aren't going to start now. Even if this could be accepted, I can promise you one thing, many of us here will be against it the same way I am and is sure as hell isn't going to be easy to get through.
Fourth, I don't know what your comments about Pokeballs are supposed to be refering to when I never said pokeballs capturing pokemon was incorrect. I said pokeballs capturing legendaries such as the CT are incorrect. And are from what? A statement from Cyrus that can easily just be baseless when he can easily be undermining the CT's power hell of a lot to think they can be captured the same way weedles and pikachus can.
Fifth, Caulifa and the others in DBS are very very different here. Caulifa and are the others are universal for actually facing universal characters and consistently keeping up with them. Whereas for pokemon, it is a mere statement that implies just any trainer can come and harm the CT when that can easily be completely incorrect depending on how far your willing to stretch Cyrus's credibility on it. And unlike DBS, them being universal is no where near the same thing as every single trainer period being at such a massive tier level beyond what any form of method they can use to become stronger.
Regardless, at this point, Im just going to make a separate thread about this topic later after I wake up from bed. This is too big of a topic for only the 2 of us to be talking over and it will need A LOT of input to even consider any of this happening.
Two, again, the U.N. scaling is the least of whats on my concern regarding these revisions so I don't have an opinon on that atm. And i'd rather wait to see what others think for it before making my own. There is nothing wrong with that.
Third, you do realize what you are trying to imply here right? Im not going to repeat any more stuff that I already said so i'll make this short. Your basically saying that every single trainer and their pokemon in the entire verse should become 2-B because of this, which is still completely 100% ridiculous. The very fact it upgrades majority of the verse to such inflated levels should scream outlier to you. We have never accepted something as massive as this and as far as I know, we aren't going to start now. Even if this could be accepted, I can promise you one thing, many of us here will be against it the same way I am and is sure as hell isn't going to be easy to get through.
Fourth, I don't know what your comments about Pokeballs are supposed to be refering to when I never said pokeballs capturing pokemon was incorrect. I said pokeballs capturing legendaries such as the CT are incorrect. And are from what? A statement from Cyrus that can easily just be baseless when he can easily be undermining the CT's power hell of a lot to think they can be captured the same way weedles and pikachus can.
Fifth, Caulifa and the others in DBS are very very different here. Caulifa and are the others are universal for actually facing universal characters and consistently keeping up with them. Whereas for pokemon, it is a mere statement that implies just any trainer can come and harm the CT when that can easily be completely incorrect depending on how far your willing to stretch Cyrus's credibility on it. And unlike DBS, them being universal is no where near the same thing as every single trainer period being at such a massive tier level beyond what any form of method they can use to become stronger.
Regardless, at this point, Im just going to make a separate thread about this topic later after I wake up from bed. This is too big of a topic for only the 2 of us to be talking over and it will need A LOT of input to even consider any of this happening.
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OMFG.
"Scream outlier," "You realize what you're trying to imply, right?"
Fallacious. It doesn't matter WHO agrees with it based on how "neatly" it fits, and it doesn't matter how "inflated" the ratings are, what matters is if they work with the scaling and if the verse has evidence to support the scaling. These are fallacious, illogical arguments that should be discarded. It doesn't matter how ridiculous it is. I find it ridiculous for Bugs Bunny to be Large Planet. But he is. I find it stupid for X to be X, but it is. The only times when "scream outlier," "inflated", and shit like that should be used is when the evidence for why X is "inflated" and "screams outlier" is hard fact. Otherwise it sounds like people are down playing and whining about how X cannot be true because it's ridiculous. This cite can't be based in facts of we're letting opinions cloud logic.
No, not any trainer can harm the CT. Not what I said. I am saying that a Trainer who has TRAINED could. Not every trainer would be at this level, and the method by which they attained said power is irrelevant. Not only that, but you haven't demonstrated any more reason or given any more evidence other than an inkling to say that Cyrus is wrong. How is he down playing the CT? He is stating that Pokéballs weaken them. Nothing more, nothing less. All the examples for why the CT specifically (as if that changes anything) cannot be caught directly clashes with two things.
A; In the Anime and Manga, the only person who has caught and used Legends, is like, Tobias. What I mean is, not many trainers have even ATTEMPTED to catch Legendary pokémon in the first place, let alone the CT. So to say they can't be caught might be a bit of an argument from ignorance.
B; Coupled with the fact that it's TWICE Canon that they were caught by the protagonist anyway contradicts the idea that they can't. You can't call this an inconsistency when there's not enough evidence to really show what "consistent" looks like.
I also want to say that I don't emotionally agree with this idea, but I find it to be a rational line or reasoning, whereas the rationale everyone's going by here isn't rational at all, even if sometimes it SOUNDS right. To not accept big inflations on principal without any reason beyond incredulity is bad for a wiki that tries to be as rational and factual as possible. You can quote me on this if you want.
"Scream outlier," "You realize what you're trying to imply, right?"
Fallacious. It doesn't matter WHO agrees with it based on how "neatly" it fits, and it doesn't matter how "inflated" the ratings are, what matters is if they work with the scaling and if the verse has evidence to support the scaling. These are fallacious, illogical arguments that should be discarded. It doesn't matter how ridiculous it is. I find it ridiculous for Bugs Bunny to be Large Planet. But he is. I find it stupid for X to be X, but it is. The only times when "scream outlier," "inflated", and shit like that should be used is when the evidence for why X is "inflated" and "screams outlier" is hard fact. Otherwise it sounds like people are down playing and whining about how X cannot be true because it's ridiculous. This cite can't be based in facts of we're letting opinions cloud logic.
No, not any trainer can harm the CT. Not what I said. I am saying that a Trainer who has TRAINED could. Not every trainer would be at this level, and the method by which they attained said power is irrelevant. Not only that, but you haven't demonstrated any more reason or given any more evidence other than an inkling to say that Cyrus is wrong. How is he down playing the CT? He is stating that Pokéballs weaken them. Nothing more, nothing less. All the examples for why the CT specifically (as if that changes anything) cannot be caught directly clashes with two things.
A; In the Anime and Manga, the only person who has caught and used Legends, is like, Tobias. What I mean is, not many trainers have even ATTEMPTED to catch Legendary pokémon in the first place, let alone the CT. So to say they can't be caught might be a bit of an argument from ignorance.
B; Coupled with the fact that it's TWICE Canon that they were caught by the protagonist anyway contradicts the idea that they can't. You can't call this an inconsistency when there's not enough evidence to really show what "consistent" looks like.
I also want to say that I don't emotionally agree with this idea, but I find it to be a rational line or reasoning, whereas the rationale everyone's going by here isn't rational at all, even if sometimes it SOUNDS right. To not accept big inflations on principal without any reason beyond incredulity is bad for a wiki that tries to be as rational and factual as possible. You can quote me on this if you want.
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What happened here?
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Kaioken.
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Kaio what?TheJ-ManRequiem said:
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It most certainly does matter when its effecting not 5, not 6, not even 20, but literally majority of an entire verse. You can't seriously expect something as massive as that to be legit.
And thats were your missing the point. Cyrus stating the CT can even be confined to pokeballs AT ALL is undermining them. And no, you can't pick and choose what trainers would be effected by the scaling. Its either all of them or none of them. If we're taking Cyrus's claim as legit, then it would apply to trainers in general. Trainers who can suddenly go tiers beyond tiers beyond tiers, out of nowhere, to damage the CT enough to where they can be captured. And thats exactly why im calling Cyrus's claim here to be complete crap.
>Tobias
Who is an incredibly huge Plot Device and is PIS altogether. And im not the only one who agrees on this. Using him as an example doesn't help this case.
>Caught by protagonist
Then it would be PIS all again. Simple as that. It just goes with all of the PIS stuff that happens with the CT and fodders who get grouped with them. Otherwise we would have made the Gen 4 protags tier 2 already. Added with the fact that even in the manga Palkia swatted away a master ball to prevent capture and even a Whisclash ate one to avoid capture, again.
It's not about "for no reason" its to keep things sensible and not make a laughing stock out of us. Seriously, 2-B trainers and pokemon will make us be seen as a joke and while im usually for not going off of what people outside this site think or say, this is pushing it VERY far. Pokemon isnt getting special treatment from this. If we deny inflated ratings for other verses that would make everyone and their mother [Insert here], this is no different.
And thats were your missing the point. Cyrus stating the CT can even be confined to pokeballs AT ALL is undermining them. And no, you can't pick and choose what trainers would be effected by the scaling. Its either all of them or none of them. If we're taking Cyrus's claim as legit, then it would apply to trainers in general. Trainers who can suddenly go tiers beyond tiers beyond tiers, out of nowhere, to damage the CT enough to where they can be captured. And thats exactly why im calling Cyrus's claim here to be complete crap.
>Tobias
Who is an incredibly huge Plot Device and is PIS altogether. And im not the only one who agrees on this. Using him as an example doesn't help this case.
>Caught by protagonist
Then it would be PIS all again. Simple as that. It just goes with all of the PIS stuff that happens with the CT and fodders who get grouped with them. Otherwise we would have made the Gen 4 protags tier 2 already. Added with the fact that even in the manga Palkia swatted away a master ball to prevent capture and even a Whisclash ate one to avoid capture, again.
It's not about "for no reason" its to keep things sensible and not make a laughing stock out of us. Seriously, 2-B trainers and pokemon will make us be seen as a joke and while im usually for not going off of what people outside this site think or say, this is pushing it VERY far. Pokemon isnt getting special treatment from this. If we deny inflated ratings for other verses that would make everyone and their mother [Insert here], this is no different.
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>PIS.
Litterally half of every argument ya make . even when no PIS actually happens.
And ya misunderstood him, not every Pokemon would be effected.
Litterally half of every argument ya make . even when no PIS actually happens.
And ya misunderstood him, not every Pokemon would be effected.
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When the US and UM imply that you have to be Champion Level to catch and defeat Legendaries.
When every protagonists is implied to be stronger than their respective champions by the time they fight and catch legendaries.
CONSISTENCY . JK, but i agree with J-Man/
When every protagonists is implied to be stronger than their respective champions by the time they fight and catch legendaries.
CONSISTENCY . JK, but i agree with J-Man/
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According to you. And with 90% of pokemon being PIS you can't expect anything else to be said for it, honestly. And yes every pokemon owned by trainers would be, there's no picking and choosing.
Regardless, I made a new thread for this topic so we can all go there to continue it.
Regardless, I made a new thread for this topic so we can all go there to continue it.
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