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Pokemon Trainer Revisions (Revised)

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Dragon, it doesn't matter how complicated it is. That doesn't change the facts.

Is it rational to go with X as the truth if X is the simplest solution to an irrelevant issue surrounding the consequences/implications tied to X-- instead of it being because X is objectively true?

No? Thank you. This scaling would change protagonist profiles and possibly how champions and crime bosses are scaled-- but that's all. Only the Champions would scale to the Legends-- depending on further context of course.
 
@Cal

Funny enough, those instances are pretty unique. Lance is the undisputed strongest elite 4 member, and could only be matched by Yellow empowering her pokémon through her bond with them. His next big appearence is giving Silver a Tyranitar, and later being stomped against Arceus.

Emerald was having a pretty good run through the Battle Frontier using Crystal's pokémon, and could only match Brandon with his own. A Sceptile that before gave a bullet seed straight into Rayquaza to wake him up and put in the Battle Factory by Archie. A Dusclops with almost the same circumstances as Sceptile (except the Rayquaza thing) and... I forgot his third member by that point, but was pretty much undefeated till Brandon (Emerald had to use a revive). The only time Emerald lost during that arc was against Tucker, and was because he didn't used his team, but rather used Crystal's pokémon.

When he rematched Tucker, all the Dex-Holders were participating, and it was implied he defeated all of them.
 
@Axenim

You continue to say facts, however at the end of the day, it depends on what the majority decides. If you disagree, make a CRT. That's how it works here. What you consider objectively right may be considered objectively wrong by someone else. At the end of all this talk of being objective, it is still all subjective.

Either way, like we long agreed on. If you disagree, to be blunt, does not matter unless you make a CRT. We will only scale legends to those who capture them as that is what was originally agreed on and that is what stands until a CRT decides otherwise. Do I make myself clear?
 
Finally, Lephyr is coming through.

Now, what you said about the Gym Leaders in Gen 4 who fought the protagonist can be simply written off as "Protagonist actually stomped." Like I said, only champion level trainers would scale for sure, if at all. And even then, there's still room for a stomp coming from the Protagonist alone. Depending on the case, we might not have to scale the Protagonist to anyone else because of that. But even then, that doesn't negate any of the other showings.

Ash against Brandon's legendaries-- hell, maybe even everything you said is proof. We can't just write off every encounter where a trainer (who is plot important) fought a legend as an outlier without there being reasons for why that instance by itself is an outlier. Specifically. Each outlier claim needs more than one contradicting showing or a legitimate issue with the scenario to support it-- otherwise we're labeling everything as an outlier when said things CONSISTENTLY happen in the verse.

If Cuphead has multiple planet level feats and each one individually had no issues with it-- like, for example, everyone still being demonstrated to be wall level consistently, even top tiers-- then we would be wrong to write them off. They keep happening. The verse just got a sudden, ridiculous boost that makes no sense, but is still true.
 
Stop it. Stop acting like I don't think it's ridiculous for anyone else to scale to legends-- I have said it time and time again, I do. What's the point in making changes and CRT's when the service thing that happened just a few hours ago will happen again-- no one will consider it because it's "ridiculous". No one respects the idea that that reasoning is a fallacy.

As for objective shit, philosophically speaking (and therefore truthfully), that is... Dubious.

While our understanding of things is based on our definitions we set, and we can redefine and alter those definitions to essentially make one man's objective truth another man's falsehood, that's not how we interact in real life. We debate by using agreed upon standards and definitions-- otherwise there's no point in having conversations or debates. So, if we're going by the agreed upon definitions, no. And, the idea that an objective truth can be subjective is contradictory anyway.

But no. It doesn't matter what one person or 1,000 say. We set a standard for what is considered Logical. If the claim follows that standard, then it is fact, and no one can go against it.

I don't see how making a CRT or anything will change it either, if this is how people on the wiki think (no offense of course). Because eventually, the topic will get banned, and worse case scenario, the cite will always have wrong information because the people running it let their opinions and subjective truths cloud their process.
 
Also, isn't this a CRT anyway? And relevant to the topic at that. Didn't I make this thread?
 
ProfessorKukui4Life said:
Basically, im on the side of the majority and I don't want anyone else to get the wrong idea of where I stand here.
Click to expand...
What is the point in making a CRT if everyone's just going to go with majority opinion, like this^

And then the thread immediately gets closed by PaChi or someone before actual rational discourse can take place? If everyone has one opinion that isn't based in fact, and all those who stand against it are either biased already, staff members that can literally silence opposition by closing the thread and then eventually making the topic banned, or both, then nothing can change. Democracy is broken if the people who are in power are this rigid/stubborn, and refuse to hear the same arguments or allow discourse on topics. I am not trying to "undermine" anything. I'm just saying that we really need to bring in neutral parties or something to logically analyze arguments-- otherwise, we get this stuff.
 
Special cases how though ?

Lucario was by defeating a legendary in the manga. We could use that argument to scale to any manga character that defeated an Legendary.

Same , but opposite, case for the anime version

Unless i am missing something huge....
 
It would only scale to those by the end of their series... Like Post-Game Stuff... Or by the time they are Champion. Anything before... Can be completely ignored... Unless specifically implied by the game .
 
"Stop it. Stop acting like I don't think it's ridiculous for anyone else to scale to legends-- I have said it time and time again, I do. What's the point in making changes and CRT's when the service thing that happened just a few hours ago will happen again-- no one will consider it because it's "ridiculous". No one respects the idea that that reasoning is a fallacy."

Never said you didn't. Not once. And if that fails then so be it. Maybe your ideals are not as correct as you may think. It's all subjective. Nothing is objective here.

"While our understanding of things is based on our definitions we set, and we can redefine and alter those definitions to essentially make one man's objective truth another man's falsehood, that's not how we interact in real life. We debate by using agreed upon standards and definitions-- otherwise there's no point in having conversations or debates. So, if we're going by the agreed upon definitions, no. And, the idea that an objective truth can be subjective is contradictory anyway."

Talk like a normal person, this isn't a philosophy class, I barely can understand a single thing you are saying. We are going by our agreed upon definitions simple as that. It's Pokemon, nothing more. Here, we go by what we agreed on simple as that.

"I don't see how making a CRT or anything will change it either, if this is how people on the wiki think (no offense of course). Because eventually, the topic will get banned, and worse case scenario, the cite will always have wrong information because the people running it let their opinions and subjective truths cloud their process."

For one, we do not go by us being the end all be all here. It's analyzing fictional characters, everything is subject to change. That's how it works here. Our subjective views are what drives us here. Our subjective view collide to create a subjectively accurate rating that is only placed under the guise of objective.
 
And don't try to make out like saying "lol2bPikachuisabsurd, therefore no scaling" is a logical argument. It's an argument from incredulity. As ridiculous as it sounds, if it's consistent, it's facts.
 
People will agree with what we think is correct. Simple as that. If your arguement cannot persuade anyone, then it's pointless.
 
I should note that I do not give two ***** if we scale notable trainers. I just better not see a 2-B Youngster Joey and his Top Percentage Ratatta running around.
 
Talk like a normal person-- if I continue to do that, you won't understand me any better. This is me talking like a normal person.

When in conversation about FACTS, even though they cannot actually exist because we're not able to know anything for certain at all, we agree on certain definitions. Otherwise, we don't get anywhere. Everything is subjective, but we don't treat it that way, even here. Otherwise, in the real world, cops wouldn't do anything because "everyone is entitled to their opinion, if he thought it was ok to rape her, that's his right!" You're factually correct when you put things like that. But I am just pointing out that that's not what you're doing Dragon. That's not what any human being who has discussions does. We create rules and then disregard the opinions of those people who do not follow said rules.

Kinda like you're doing to me-- yeah, I know you don't mean harm or anything, I'm making a point.


"Our subjective view collide to create a subjectively accurate rating that is only placed under the guise of objective."-- this is true about life in general btw, and as it pretains to the wiki, it's important to recognize the contradiction with your actions and words as well, as you don't give a ****, which is cool if you don't. That's kinda true for life too, that we can't say objectively anything is X or whatever-- anyway;

You can't claim this wiki is reliable and you can't debate if you don't hold certain things and certain rules to be law-- and if this wiki is rational, then it should conform to the logic that we agree to follow. And for the last paragraph, you might not intend to be the end all, but you are. That thread literally got shut down because of the staff opinions. And certain topics are off limits because of your (the wiki staff) authority.
 
If this is even remotely considerable, it absolutely must be decided in a staff-only thread with capable non-staff to comment on this. Thats the only way this can be managed at this point.
 
I'm just saying that "what we think is correct" isn't always correct, and debate should be held often. I'm afraid to open up a CRT about this because I feel like no one will agree and it won't change BECAUSE of irrationality. Which makes a debate pointless. Honestly, I don't really care about Legendaries scaling to every trainer either-- I care about what is factual. So I'm with the court of rational argument.

I don't know where Misty stands by herself, or if we're combining her game, manga, and anime counterparts. Because all of them are physically separate. Stat wise. Misty scales to Ash's durability in the anime.
 
Kukui, that's the problem. That's exactly the problem. Because people with the power here effectively control what gets discussed-- even if they have good intentions. It can't be staff only, especially if the people who disagree aren't staff.

Democracy is kinda like two wolves and a sheep voting on who gets dinner sometimes-- at least if there isn't a mediating party to get rid of incorrect/fallacious arguments.
 
I tried to come here to help, but it seems as if my assistence didn't help at all. I did prove that in US and UM, you eed to be Champion-Level to fight Legendaries. Albeit ... That causes issues in and of itself...
 
Axenim must have not read my earlier comments. However, some of your stuff is lack of understanding me.

"if I continue to do that, you won't understand me any better. This is me talking like a normal person."

I can guarantee you would be easier to understand. This is Pokemon, no one is interested in the philosophical meaning and contradictions. This isn't a philosophy class. This is just vs debating. Nothing as near as serious.

"When in conversation about FACTS, even though they cannot actually exist because we're not able to know anything for certain at all, we agree on certain definitions. Otherwise, we don't get anywhere. Everything is subjective, but we don't treat it that way, even here. "

This is basically what I said. But at the same time, we have gone on record stating multiple times that we are not the end all be all. We try to be as accurate as we can by arguing viewpoints. However, we aren't going to claim that we are 100% correct either.

"You can't claim this wiki is reliable and you can't debate if you don't hold certain things and certain rules to be law-- and if this wiki is rational, then it should conform to the logic that we agree to follow. And for the last paragraph, you might not intend to be the end all, but you are. That thread literally got shut down because of the staff opinions. And certain topics are off limits because of your (the wiki staff) authority."

Okay here, you are not understanding why we do things here. We only disable certain discussions when nothing new is to being brought up. If we have argued about something countless times, we are not going to waste wikia resources over and over again over the same subject. If something new comes to light, then we evaluate it.
 
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