Pokémon Standards Part 2

[FinePoint]

It's supporting evidence, for sure, since it supports Flying Type being strongly associated with air, but I don't think we can say for certain how much Eternatus is doing to turn Peck into Max Airstream.

It just doesn't exactly nullify the argument that many Flying Type moves are just normal attacks, and that other types can also use air manip.

 

[Lou_change]

Again energy manipulation they are infused with other type energy.

 

[FinePoint]

Again energy manipulation they are infused with other type energy.

Well, my personal argument has always been that even the "normal attacks" of, say, Flying Type glow with energy from the plates.
It's like if a character from a different media infused their punches with the element of air, would we give resistance based on that?

I wonder if there's an example exactly like that.

 

[Lou_change]

I guess

 

[FinePoint]

Bump

I'm also going to push for the "complicated types" to be looked at again.

It seems like the thread has deadended again. We might have to just apply everything that's been applied and move again to laser-focus on this somewhere else.

Not sure why this happens, or why the forum randomly stops notifying people for certain threads.

 

[Antvasima]

As I keep telling our members, including in a double-highlighted information thread, they need to bookmark and use both of the following pages in combination in order to keep track of all the discussion threads that they follow:

https://vsbattles.com/watched/threads

https://vsbattles.com/account/alerts?skip_mark_read=1&show_only=unread

 

[Antvasima]

Anyway, I am personally fine with if the members here who know how to edit properly focus on applying what has been accepted here so far.

Would you be willing to list all of the members who have helped out with this revision, so I can send them a notification?

 

[FinePoint]

Anyway, I am personally fine with if the members here who know how to edit properly focus on applying what has been accepted here so far.

Would you be willing to list all of the members who have helped out with this revision, so I can send them a notification?

Every single member, or just staff?

Everything accepted is already in the page I created.
The only remaining issue was that you didn't think it was professional enough.
Gyro went through the effort of editing it to fix that.

Which means assuming he did a good job, all that's left to apply the accepted revisions is link the page in the Pokémon editing rules and/or verse page.

 

[Antvasima]

Okay, so you do not need to edit all of the Pokemon character profile pages based on new standards?

Anyway, I am way too tired and overworked to edit any wiki pages for you right now. My apologies.

 

[FinePoint]

Okay, so you do not need to edit all of the Pokemon character profile pages based on new standards?

Oh, well, yes. We do, but that's more of an ongoing project that's going to be contributed towards by other CRTs also ongoing.

Anyway, I am way too tired and overworked to edit any wiki pages for you right now. My apologies.

It's fine. I'm sure either me or Gyro can do it just fine, I just wanted to make sure I have your final approval before making changes to such an important wiki page.

 

[Antvasima]

Oh, well, yes. We do, but that's more of an ongoing project that's going to be contributed towards by other CRTs also ongoing.

Okay. No problem.

It's fine. I'm sure either me or Gyro can do it just fine, I just wanted to make sure I have your final approval before making changes to such an important wiki page.

@GyroNutz

Would you be willing to handle it please?

 

[GyroNutz]

I don't think we should put this in the Editing Rules page, at least not until the standards are fully hashed out and agreed on.

 

[Antvasima]

Okay, so only a verse page link then?

 

[GyroNutz]

Sure, I can sort that out now

 

[Antvasima]

Okay. Thank you for helping out so much.

 

[FinePoint]

I don't think we should put this in the Editing Rules page, at least not until the standards are fully hashed out and agreed on.

That's fine. As long as people will see it. We can come back to that when it's more complete.

I suppose that means this thread is technically concluded.

We could still make a part 3 which addresses some of the suggestions like including the primary calculations and going focusing on arguments for specific types, but given this thread has been just the same five-ish people for the entire last page it seems unlikely those will receive proper attention here.

 

[Antvasima]

So is it fine with everybody here if we close this thread now?

 

[FinePoint]

So is it fine with everybody here if we close this thread now?

Fine by me.

 

[XXKINGXX69]

So is it fine with everybody here if we close this thread now?

We can close this

 

[Armorchompy]

I disagree with Gifted on third stage evolutions, fighting someone does not mean you are comparable to them in skill if your fighting style is not about technique to begin with, doesn't take a genius to breathe fire towards a target's general direction and I don't see how that target knowing kung fu would change that.

 

[SamanPatou]

I have to agree with this, it doesn't make sense for, say, Venusaur to be gifted in combat by scaling to Machamp, as the two have completely different ways of fighting, unrelated to martial arts.
Without going too much in depth on how human CQC styles are intended to fight other humans, knowing them doesn't make you particulalry more advantaged against superpowered animals, object and other kinds of inhuman creatures.

Lv.100 being a way to mark a very experienced Pokémon is good up to a certain point. As said in the other thread, being very experienced doesn't outright make you gifted in combat, and such concept is wildly different when applied to Pokèmon, the way they fight, the place and much else, including the way exp. points are gained in the first place.
And it's not like reaching level 100 means mons stop learning, and in the same way you have trainers who fought for pretty much their entire life, sometimes even with the same Pokemon, and their team is only at 40 or such.

 

[Antvasima]

Okay. Would Average or Above Average be better then?

 

[Armorchompy]

I think "at least Above Average" works.

 

[Antvasima]

Okay. That is probably fine to apply then.

 

[Armorchompy]

We should definitely wait for possible counterarguments

 

[Antvasima]

Yes, that is fine.

 

[GyroNutz]

I don't really mind if we choose Gifted or at least Above Average, doesn't seem like much of a difference to me

 

[The_real_cal_howard]

Is this thread still active? I do have a blog on what types should be. I'll link that.

 

[GyroNutz]

Sure, that'll help

 

[The_real_cal_howard]

Explaining Pokemon Type Equivalents

vsbattles.fandom.com

 

[FinePoint]

I do not mind if 3rd stages are just a higher level of Above Average either.
The evidence is rather subjective, and as a bonus it would make the Intelligence section simpler because we wouldn't need to differentiate between the two.

Also guess we're not closing the thread yet. That's a good thing though.

 

[GyroNutz]

Explaining Pokemon Type Equivalents

vsbattles.fandom.com

Fungus Manipulation could be a good equivalent for the "powder" based moves that grass types are immune to.

Explosions seem too broad to be for fire types, as does Sound Manip for normal types (actually less than half of attacking sound-based moves are normal type, and one of those is Relic Song), and isn't Plasma Manip just for Zeraora's plasma fists?

Sand Manip should be included for ground types, I agree

I think ectoplasm covers the general ghost-based energy stuff. Worth mentioning that Dark and even Normal types don't resist curse.

Dunno where Radiation Manip comes from for poison types.

 

[The_real_cal_howard]

Fungus Manipulation could be a good equivalent for the "powder" based moves that grass types are immune to.

Explosions seem too broad to be for fire types, as does Sound Manip for normal types (actually less than half of attacking sound-based moves are normal type, and one of those is Relic Song), and isn't Plasma Manip just for Zeraora's plasma fists?

Sand Manip should be included for ground types, I agree

I think ectoplasm covers the general ghost-based energy stuff. Worth mentioning that Dark and even Normal types don't resist curse.

Dunno where Radiation Manip comes from for poison types.

Most of your questions are answered in the Q&A section of the blog.

 

[Antvasima]

Thank you for helping out, Cal.

 

[Imaginym]

I do not mind if 3rd stages are just a higher level of Above Average either.
The evidence is rather subjective, and as a bonus it would make the Intelligence section simpler because we wouldn't need to differentiate between the two.

Forgive my asking, but the two of which?

Fungus Manipulation could be a good equivalent for the "powder" based moves that grass types are immune to.

Are there any non-Grass-type Powder moves that Grass types are immune to? (Ex: Magic Powder?)

Explosions seem too broad to be for fire types,

Explosion & Self-Destruct are Normal type moves, but what are the other non-Fire-type Explosion Manipulation moves.

as does Sound Manip for normal types (actually less than half of attacking sound-based moves are normal type, and one of those is Relic Song),

What??
Off the top of my head, non-Normal-type Sound Manipulation moves include Disarming Voice (Which mostly uses Empathic Manipulation for its damage anyway.) & Bug Buzz.

Normal-type Sound Manipulation includes:
Roar, Sing, Screech, Supersonic, Perish Song.
Growl (Dubious because Empathic Manipulation.), & Confide (Dubious for similar reasons). Heal Bell, Noble Roar
Snore, Uproar, Hyper Voice, Echoed Voice, Round, Relic Song, & Boomburst.


I initially assumed Sonic Boom might be included (Dubious, because this is described as a "shock wave".), but Sonic Boom apparently isn't counted as a Sound-Based move.
Almost every damaging Sound-based move is Normal-type, & a lot of Sound-based Status moves are also Normal-type.
& among a majority of non-Normal-type Sound-based moves, they're Signature Moves: Chatter, Clanging Scales, Clangorous Soul, Clangorous Soulblaze (The Z-Move of Clanging Scales. Yes, not of Clanging Soul.), Eerie Spell, Overdrive, & Sparkling Aria.

I think ectoplasm covers the general ghost-based energy stuff.

I still think Ectoplasm Manipulation is a little weird, but so long as Ghost types get Shadow/Darkness Manipulation, I don't mind them also getting Shadow/Darkness Manipulation, it seems reasonable, as I believe I've established previously.

Dunno where Radiation Manip comes from for poison types.

I'd also like to know about this. The only relevant thing I can think of is Grimer being said to have come to life from X-Rays from the moon, & I doubt that's the justification, even if that does end up being how Pokemon's moon works.

 

[SuperKamiNappa]

Are there any non-Grass-type Powder moves that Grass types are immune to? (Ex: Magic Powder?)

Poison Powder

 

[XXKINGXX69]

I think its best that we watch the anime scenes for Pokemon moves like the Powder moves to have a better understanding.

 

[GyroNutz]

What??
Off the top of my head, non-Normal-type Sound Manipulation moves include Disarming Voice (Which mostly uses Empathic Manipulation for its damage anyway.) & Bug Buzz.

Attacking sound-based moves, since those are the only ones that would matter for Resistances. Of those, 7/16 of sound-based moves are Normal type, and one of those is the legendary exclusive Relic Song.

Are there any non-Grass-type Powder moves that Grass types are immune to? (Ex: Magic Powder?)

Rage Powder, Poison Powder as said above

Most of your questions are answered in the Q&A section of the blog.

While Rotom is made from plasma, yes, that doesn't mean much for resistances imo. The only move that deals with plasma stuff is Zeraora's signature move.

 

[Antvasima]

So what do we currently need to do here?

 

[Imaginym]

Attacking sound-based moves, since those are the only ones that would matter for Resistances. Of those, 7/16 of sound-based moves are Normal type, and one of those is the legendary exclusive Relic Song.

Snore, Uproar, Hyper Voice, Echoed Voice, Round, Relic Song, & Boomburst.
Yeah, 7/16, 6 if you don't count the signature move.

In my opinion, Signature Moves should hold slightly less weight, because they may have been designed with a Pokemon species, rather than type in mind; To give STAB or such, rather than accurately representing the type that they are.

But nonetheless, the non-Normal-type Sound-based damaging moves are:
Bug Buzz, Chatter, Clanging Scales, Clangorous Soulblaze, Disarming Voice, Eerie Spell, Overdrive, Snarl, Sparkling Aria.

Of those 9 moves, only 3 aren't Signature Moves. Heck, 1 of them is a Z Move of a Signature Move. & as said, I'm not sure Signature Moves should hold as much weight regarding what's accurate for a type.
1 of the remaining 3, Echoed Voice, also mostly does its damage through Empathic Manipulation, too.

& when you include non-damaging moves, Normal easily has the majority on Sound-based moves, so in my opinion, the type is representative of the ability somewhat consistently.

To summarize the numbers:
Damaging Normal-type Sound Manipulation that isn't a Signature Move: 6
Damaging Normal-type Sound Manipulation that is a Signature Move: 1 (Relic Song)
Non-damaging Normal-type Sound Manipulation that isn't a Signature Move: 10
Non-Normal-type Damaging Sound Manipulation that isn't a Signature Move: 3
Non-Normal-type Damaging Sound Manipulation that is a Signature Move: 6
Non-Normal-type Non-Damaging Sound Manipulation that isn't a Signature Move: 3
Non-Normal-type Non-Damaging Sound Manipulation that is a Signature Move: 1 (Clangorous Soul)

In my opinion, Normal-type moves consistently enough involve Sound Manipulation that it should at least be a Limited or Possible Resistance for Resisting it.

The majority of the time that Sound isn't Normal-type, it's a Signature Move, which in my opinion, lessens how much weight we can assume that move holds for accurately representing its type, when that move was made for specific Pokemon.

While Rotom is made from plasma, yes, that doesn't mean much for resistances imo. The only move that deals with plasma stuff is Zeraora's signature move.

Ah, thank you for clarifying that. I had forgotten about Rotom.