Pokémon Standards Part 2

[FinePoint]

I was in that thread and that's definitely not how it happened, the blog only contains specific resistances for the typings that didn't receive any debate. It's still perfectly valid for discussion.

You are correct.
The only thing accepted in the last thread was the methodology, not the specifics.

Which types and moves are excluded are still up for debate. I just wrote some stuff down to start. I'll add Normal when I get to my computer again in less than an hour.


Someone said something about Dragon being weak to itself, I can't be bothered to find and quote them on mobile but basically: they're listed as they'll appear when something resists that type, I'm not listing which types resist what. Anyone even remotely familiar with pokemon should already know most of that. Though I suppose I could make that clearer.

 

[Lou_change]

Do we include dark types being immune to prankster also poison types heal from black sludge and absorb toxic spikes

 

[FinePoint]

This is fine, just one thing in the complicated types. You wrote Dragon's resistance to Dragon type moves and Ghost's resistance to Ghost type moves. I'm sure you know but Dragon is actually weak to dragon and same with ghost :V

Yes, it was you.
The list is actually resistances they'll receive if they resist that type, not if they are that type.
Listing that in this blog would be far too cumbersome given dual-types, and people who know pokémon should know their type-matchups anyways.

 

[FinePoint]

Mostly looks good, but I recall Gyro mentioning the part about Ice Pokemon being immune to Absolute Zero. I always found that to be a game mechanics, since being immune to being frozen to the coldest possible temperature would intently make them immune to all Ice and cold attacks in general. Which Ice Pokemon are not quite that and it sounds prone to NLF. Resistance perhaps, but immunity to a lot of things are often NLF and prefer them being treated as good resistance.

I'm neutral on Absolute Zero specifically, but the idea with "Immunity (within reason) to" was to differentiate between regular resistances and immunities. The Resistance page even mentions immunity as a peak of Resistance, and logically pokémon should be immune to attacks they're immune to provided they don't have any extra layers and are around their AP.

 

[FinePoint]

Do we include dark types being immune to prankster also poison types heal from black sludge and absorb toxic spikes

Dark types are immune to prankster, though I'm not sure there's any way to equalize that consistently.
So, we'd likely have to list it as just: "Immune to Prankster" and link to the ability.

I'm not sure those last two matter in any capacity, since they should already be covered by their resistance to poison, and black sludge is inconsistent because they don't heal from any poison source, only black sludge specifically. That is to say, it's more of a black sludge ability than a poison type ability.

 

[FinePoint]

Looking at the sandbox, I have 2 points

1. Magma and Heat manipulation can probably be added to Fire Type

2. I don’t think Ghost and Flying are too complicated, special Flying moves are consistently wind manipulation and Shadow manipulation is a fairly consistent trend among Ghost types. Also is there a reason Psychic can’t just be telekinesis?

1. Do you mean to pokémon who ARE fire type, or pokémon who RESIST fire type? Because the list is currently formatted the latter way.

You are not the only one to mention that flying is probably fine.
The reason Psychic was debated was because some are energy projection, and Hex is also telekinesis.

 

[FinePoint]

I've edited the blog for the following:

• Changed to "over 900 pokémon"
• Added Normal Type to complicated types
• Adjusted the abilities section to mention level-up and egg moves specifically
• Made it clearer in the pre-text for the typing section that the list is for if pokémon resist the listed types
• Added Prankster as an immunity for Dark Types

 

[FinePoint]

Mostly looks good

Looks bueno.

I like this, we finally can standardize the Pokemon profiles

Sounds like a good proposal as well

What do you guys think of Gyro's proposals to change the typing specifically?

Ghost, Psychic, Flying, Steel, Dark and possibly Fairy can be treated as specific resistances (Ectoplasm, Telekinesis, Air, Metal, Darkness Manip and possibly Magic respectively).

 

[FinePoint]

what abilities this would grant (e.g. Intimidator would grant Fear Manipulation, Nonsleeper would grant Resistance to Sleep Manipulation).

We could certainly do something like that. Do you know of a list which includes both MD1 and MD2? Or, is it all the same? I do not remember.

An idea of which stage of Pokemon scales to which AP/speed could be a good idea. Stuff can be done with the range as well, since that section is generally quite poor. I'm also planning on improving the calc section to make the former even clearer.

Sure. We could also include a standard Stamina write-up, since I've seen profiles which are just "High" with no explanation.
What range should they scale to though? I'd assume it depends on their movepool.

We could certainly include a section in the blog which includes only the primary calculations and the scaling chain.
Does anyone have objections to these things?

Sorry for posting so many times in a row, but a lot happened while I was sleeping and I wanted to make sure I didn't miss anything.
I should be all caught up now.

 

[SuperKamiNappa]

1. Do you mean to pokémon who ARE fire type, or pokémon who RESIST fire type? Because the list is currently formatted the latter way.

You are not the only one to mention that flying is probably fine.
The reason Psychic was debated was because some are energy projection, and Hex is also telekinesis.

Resist

 

[FinePoint]

Resist

I added it, since it falls in line with moves like Heat Wave and Magma Storm.

 

[XXKINGXX69]

Hex is telekinesis using ghostly energy. Resisting psychic is still resisting regular telekinesis, which is enough for a telekinesis resistance. Poison resistance should grant resistance to acid

 

[FinePoint]

Hex is telekinesis using ghostly energy. Resisting psychic is still resisting regular telekinesis, which is enough for a telekinesis resistance. Poison resistance should grant resistance to acid

I suppose adding Acid to poison is fine, since it has many acid moves.
Though, we still need more input on Psychic.

 

[XXKINGXX69]

I also don't get why resisting an attack that consumes your mind and dreams isn't resisting dream or mind manipulation because the Pokemon resist it due to it being psychic type. They are still able to withstand an attack that consumes their dreams without dying

And how is not dying to absolute zero not limited or minor resistance to absolute zero? I believe all Pokemon should get it

 

[FinePoint]

And how is not dying to absolute zero not limited or minor resistance to absolute zero? I believe all Pokemon should get it

Well, we're still debating that first part, but most pokémon do (faint) to it.
Pokémon with sturdy and ice types don't.

 

[XXKINGXX69]

Well, we're still debating that first part, but most pokémon do (faint) to it.
Pokémon with sturdy and ice types don't.

What do you think will happen to a normal human if they are in absolute zero temperatures?

 

[Arceus0x]

What do you think will happen to a normal human if they are in absolute zero temperatures?

 

[FinePoint]

What do you think will happen to a normal human if they are in absolute zero temperatures?

This is a children's franchise.
They're not going to have your opponent's pokémon dying every time you hit them with an OHKO move.

The fact of the matter is they're KO'd, they lose, so they shouldn't resist it.

 

[XXKINGXX69]

This is a children's franchise.
They're not going to have your opponent's pokémon dying every time you hit them with an OHKO move.

They survive it because its a kids franchise, so its a limited resistance. The reason why I bring it up is because if you can't die from AZ, you can't die from a temperature less cold than that either, so it is relevant to add it to a profile.

 

[Rez]

Hex is telekinesis using ghostly energy.

Hex is not telekinesis. It's literally only shown to be similar to telekinesis only once and that contradicts it's pokedex description and other times it was used.

 

[SamanPatou]

The OP looks good and it's a huge improvement towards making Pokémon better.

Though my personal opinion is that we shouldn't, and MD should be separate profiles.
A lot about those games is extremely different from the rest of the franchise.

I'm fully in support of this, but I know others aren't, and the issue itself requires a new thread.

 

[XXKINGXX69]

I'm fully in support of this, but I know others aren't, and the issue itself requires a new thread.

I propose that we make a CRT on it after this thread

 

[FinePoint]

The OP looks good and it's a huge improvement towards making Pokémon better.


I'm fully in support of this, but I know others aren't, and the issue itself requires a new thread.

Thank you for your input. Could you give some more on Gyro's suggestions below?

All Ice types get resistance (immunity?) to Absolute Zero via being immune to Sheer Cold. You also missed out the Normal type under the "Complicated" types section.

Ghost, Psychic, Flying, Steel, Dark and possibly Fairy can be treated as specific resistances (Ectoplasm, Telekinesis, Air, Metal, Darkness Manip and possibly Magic respectively).

 

[Arceus0x]

I believe MD can be used as support for how moves work outside of main game mechanics as many are hard to explain and some never appear in the anime.

 

[SamanPatou]

All Ice types get resistance (immunity?) to Absolute Zero via being immune to Sheer Cold. You also missed out the Normal type under the "Complicated" types section.

That might be good, tho it depends on whether or not we want to include all specific applications of the types that aren't related to their basic definition.

Ghost, Psychic, Flying, Steel, Dark and possibly Fairy can be treated as specific resistances (Ectoplasm, Telekinesis, Air, Metal, Darkness Manip and possibly Magic respectively).

I disagree with these, because such types aren't specifically one thing with many sub-applications (like magma being a part of fire).
Ghost is often related to shadow and darkness, Psychich is often comprised of telekinesis and energy manipulation, flying is very often just physical attacks from flying animals, steel as others said often doesn't involve actual metal, dark is less about true darkness and more about mean attacks, and lastly Fairy is very unspecific, to the point that people were debating a handful of different things it could be (magic, holy, light...) and the moves themselves aren't a clear-cut thing.

 

[XXKINGXX69]

Lets apply the changes

 

[FinePoint]

Lets apply the changes

There's still stuff to discuss.
We don't want to rush this out, it'll eventually affect over 900 profiles.

 

[XXKINGXX69]

it'll eventually affect over 900 profiles.

Not every pokemon has a profile tbh

 

[FinePoint]

Not every pokemon has a profile tbh

They will. Eventually.

 

[Arceus0x]

They will. Eventually.

oh god please no i still keep finding non high 7-A pokemon to this day

 

[theultimate5105]

oh god please no i still keep finding non high 7-A pokemon to this day

Something like half of them are probably still 7-A with Relativistic-Relativistic+ Speed

 

[CloverDragon03]

What do you guys think of Gyro's proposals to change the typing specifically?

Disagree with this for the same reasons Saman gave tbh

 

[Arceus0x]

Something like half of them are probably still 7-A with Relativistic-Relativistic+ Speed

Nah i changed hundreds of profiles there should be like a few dozen at worst

 

[Lou_change]

I'm not sure those last two matter in any capacity, since they should already be covered by their resistance to poison, and black sludge is inconsistent because they don't heal from any poison source, only black sludge specifically. That is to say, it's more of a black sludge ability than a poison type ability.

Poison spikes are absorbed so all poison type would get limited absorption and it could be assumed black sludge is similar.

 

[GyroNutz]

We could certainly do something like that. Do you know of a list which includes both MD1 and MD2? Or, is it all the same? I do not remember.

Sure. We could also include a standard Stamina write-up, since I've seen profiles which are just "High" with no explanation.
What range should they scale to though? I'd assume it depends on their movepool.

Bulbapedia has lists for MD1 and MD2. And yeah they're different, MD2 splits them into separate IQ groups.

Stamina sounds good, range should probably be dependent on the movepool, though that could take a bit of work so I don't mind putting that on hold.

I disagree with these, because such types aren't specifically one thing with many sub-applications (like magma being a part of fire).
Ghost is often related to shadow and darkness, Psychich is often comprised of telekinesis and energy manipulation, flying is very often just physical attacks from flying animals, steel as others said often doesn't involve actual metal, dark is less about true darkness and more about mean attacks, and lastly Fairy is very unspecific, to the point that people were debating a handful of different things it could be (magic, holy, light...) and the moves themselves aren't a clear-cut thing.

I think trying to group one type into one ability is a flawed way of going about this. This is what I said on this point above:

I still don't see how this would be an issue though. We're not generalising all moves of a type under one ability, we're saying that a Pokemon who can resist Dark type moves should be able to resist Darkness manipulation for resisting the Dark moves that are in fact this ability. This only seems relevant when there's only like one or two moves that would fit the description, like Razor Wind being Normal type + Air Manip wouldn't lead to Ghost types resisting Air Manip.

Though yeah Fairy is very unspecific, so I don't mind that being ignored.

Mostly looks good, but I recall Gyro mentioning the part about Ice Pokemon being immune to Absolute Zero. I always found that to be a game mechanics, since being immune to being frozen to the coldest possible temperature would intently make them immune to all Ice and cold attacks in general. Which Ice Pokemon are not quite that and it sounds prone to NLF. Resistance perhaps, but immunity to a lot of things are often NLF and prefer them being treated as good resistance.

I think there's a distinct difference between most ice moves and Sheer Cold though. As in, the potency of an ice move (e.g. Ice Beam, Ice Punch) isn't just measured by the temperature of the move, but also the force behind it. Though Resistance is probably better, since with fiction there's probably stuff like layered AZ resistances.

 

[Antoniofer]

Stuff like resistance (btw, it were agreed to be changed to damage reduction?) against plant, rock or water manip sounds iffy, is not like some pkm are resistent to be crushed by large log, metal beam or a boulder (or at least, there's no proof about that). Aside of the basic energies, pkm reduces the damage against elemental energy rather than the element itself. So it would be more like damage reduction against [insert element] + energy manip.

Also, generally speaking, fire types would be associated to Temperature Manip (Heat), and ice type Temperature Manip (Cold).

 

[Antvasima]

So what are the conclusions here so far? It seems like most members here agree with most of the changes.

 

[Lou_change]

We still need to decide what is included in each type, ground type for example has all but one(shadow bone) bone moves.

 

[Antvasima]

Okay. No problem.

 

[FinePoint]

Bulbapedia has lists for MD1 and MD2. And yeah they're different, MD2 splits them into separate IQ groups.

I see. The addition of groups that are different would likely extremely clutter the blog. Perhaps we should just link to this list on Bulbapedia?

Stamina sounds good, range should probably be dependent on the movepool, though that could take a bit of work so I don't mind putting that on hold.

True. It might be more useful to list accepted ranges for certain common moves, like hyper-beam for example.
As for stamina, I'm not sure if we should be encouraging those vague terms anymore, but the description which comes to mind for pokémon with no feats is:

"Pokémon are hard-wired for battle, and should be capable of fighting for reasonable lengths of time even while sustaining damage."

I think trying to group one type into one ability is a flawed way of going about this. This is what I said on this point above:

Well, certainly a type can be linked to multiple abilities. Fire type is currently linked to three, and Ice/poison to two.
We just want to make sure if we link an ability that it's representative of the type as a whole and not a single obscure side-effect.

Speaking of, what do you think of adding Bone Manipulation to ground? Apparently it has all the bone moves except Shadow Bone which is a bone which contains a spirit.

I think there's a distinct difference between most ice moves and Sheer Cold though. As in, the potency of an ice move (e.g. Ice Beam, Ice Punch) isn't just measured by the temperature of the move, but also the force behind it. Though Resistance is probably better, since with fiction there's probably stuff like layered AZ resistances.

I'd personally be fine with giving resistance to AZ to ice types, but it seems there's not good staff support it right now.