Pokémon Standards Part 2

[FinePoint]

Part 1 of this is here.
I've also borrowed from this thread.

Here's the Sandbox.
Basically, Pokémon profiles are a complete mess. It feels like there's a dozen CRTs actively trying to address this, so it's my goal to create an all-encompassing standard which should allow us to move forward with straightening them all out. To that end, I've created this blog based on information from Part 1, as well as subjects I see cause a lot of debate and confusion around Pokémon on this site.

What do you think? Can certain types be added or removed from the exclusion list? What's necessary, what's not?
Should we add even more to this blog, and include the scaling chain and other standards too?

The ultimate goal is for any user to be able to be linked to one or two places where they can learn everything they need to create new Pokémon profiles or fix currently scuffed profiles.

 

[Imaginym]

IQ Skills are approved?
I have trouble remembering our stance on this. If they are approved, that's fine, if they're not, that's fine, I just wanna be clear on what's the case.

 

[FinePoint]

IQ Skills are approved?
I have trouble remembering our stance on this. If they are approved, that's fine, if they're not, that's fine, I just wanna be clear on what's the case.

What I've been told by mods is that we currently use them.

Though my personal opinion is that we shouldn't, and MD should be separate profiles.
A lot about those games is extremely different from the rest of the franchise.

 

[XXKINGXX69]

Psychic resistance has to include resistance to mind and dream manipulation, literally resists their dreams from being eaten

See this list for more

 

[Imaginym]

Psychic resistance has to include resistance to mind and dream manipulation, literally resists their dreams from being eaten

See this list for more

I do deeply appreciate you sharing this thorough documentation resource, however, I feel I should apologize in advance for saying:
Please see the previous thread; Dream Manipulation is probably too "inconsistent" as an ability for the type. For example, Ghost also gets it via Nightmare, so it's a little unclear who gets it.
Similarly, very few Resistable/Immunity-possible Psychic-type moves are actually Mind Manipulation. Psychic Energy & Telekinesis are more common.

Ergo, it's unlikely that Resisting Mind/Dream Manipulation is a prevalent enough ability across Psychic-type moves.

& if you mean assigning Resistances based on Abilities of Individual moves, IIRC, we didn't agree to that methodology, & agreed to a different methodology, but I don't recall why. Sorry.

 

[FinePoint]

& if you mean assigning Resistances based on Abilities of Individual moves, IIRC, we didn't agree to that methodology, & agreed to a different methodology, but I don't recall why. Sorry.

Inconsistency, to be simple.
Pokémon can resist paralysis from one move but not another, for example.
There's three examples in the blog actually.

 

[Imaginym]

Inconsistency, to be simple.
Pokémon can resist paralysis from one move but not another, for example.
There's three examples in the blog actually.

In your blog in the OP, you mean? Or the one that @XXKINGXX69 linked?

 

[FinePoint]

In your blog in the OP, you mean? Or the one that @XXKINGXX69 linked?

The sandbox in the OP.

 

[Arceus0x]

I like the proposal. I feel that though we need to have the Intelligence at Below Average normally, Above Average in combat, as pokemon are quite efficient in combat and often non-fighting type pokemon can compete with fighting types who have serious knowledge in martial arts such as machop who trains in all forms of them

 

[Arceus0x]

Also i've been thinking, should we establish standards for Stamina considering it has been updated? Pokemon have some good feats if i remember correctly

 

[XXKINGXX69]

I do deeply appreciate you sharing this thorough documentation resource, however, I feel I should apologize in advance for saying:
Please see the previous thread; Dream Manipulation is probably too "inconsistent" as an ability for the type. For example, Ghost also gets it via Nightmare, so it's a little unclear who gets it.
Similarly, very few Resistable/Immunity-possible Psychic-type moves are actually Mind Manipulation. Psychic Energy & Telekinesis are more common.

Ergo, it's unlikely that Resisting Mind/Dream Manipulation is a prevalent enough ability across Psychic-type moves.

& if you mean assigning Resistances based on Abilities of Individual moves, IIRC, we didn't agree to that methodology, & agreed to a different methodology, but I don't recall why. Sorry.

Or maybe its because they don't resist Nightmare because its ectoplasm manipulation? Most forms of dream absorption and mental absorption are psychic based, so it applies cross verse. Like do you think water types shouldn't have a resistance to fire manipulation because they can still take damage from Tri Attack?

Also, I know that we accepted not to add resistances for every attack, but there are some that should apply here. For example, lava manipulation if you resist fire

 

[Imaginym]

Also i've been thinking, should we establish standards for Stamina considering it has been updated? Pokemon have some good feats if i remember correctly

I think standards for such things should be established, but it might overcomplicate this current revision to add on that as well. We already have to go over Pokemon types & Intelligence, & that's a lot to handle.

Or maybe its because they don't resist Nightmare because its ectoplasm manipulation?

How do you figure Nightmare is Ectoplasm Manipulation?

Most forms of dream absorption and mental absorption are psychic based, so it applies cross verse.

Dream Manipulation is a type of Mind Manipulation, yes, but when it comes to attacking the mind, Psychic, is surprisingly, the exception, not the norm, with few examples of DAMAGING Psychic-type moves, with few that can be Resisted based on Type.

Also, I know that we accepted not to add resistances for every attack, but there are some that should apply here. For example, lava manipulation if you resist fire

A good few Fire Type moves are Lava Manipulation, IIRC, but it's kind of a weird case: Lava/Magma Manipulation aren't actual abilities on the Wiki, IIRC, but rather, subtypes of Earth Manipulation &/or Metal Manipulation. Similarly, Heat Manipulation is a subtype of Temperature Manipulation.
So while I'm not strongly opposed to their inclusion.... Even if they are accurate & consistent, how we can implement them feels like a tricky subject. Would probably need to fiddle with the wording & be careful.
After all, we can't just give Fire-types Resistance to Earth Manipulation without specifying it's the "Lava/Magma Manipulation" subtype of Earth Manipulation, or things could look a bit weird, I'd think.

 

[XXKINGXX69]

I think standards for such things should be established, but it might overcomplicate this current revision to add on that as well. We already have to go over Pokemon types & Intelligence, & that's a lot to handle.

How do you figure Nightmare is Ectoplasm Manipulation?

Dream Manipulation is a type of Mind Manipulation, yes, but when it comes to attacking the mind, Psychic, is surprisingly, the exception, not the norm, with few examples of DAMAGING Psychic-type moves, with few that can be Resisted based on Type.

A good few Fire Type moves are Lava Manipulation, IIRC, but it's kind of a weird case: Lava/Magma Manipulation aren't actual abilities on the Wiki, IIRC, but rather, subtypes of Earth Manipulation &/or Metal Manipulation. Similarly, Heat Manipulation is a subtype of Temperature Manipulation.
So while I'm not strongly opposed to their inclusion.... Even if they are accurate & consistent, how we can implement them feels like a tricky subject. Would probably need to fiddle with the wording & be careful.
After all, we can't just give Fire-types Resistance to Earth Manipulation without specifying it's the "Lava/Magma Manipulation" subtype of Earth Manipulation, or things could look a bit weird, I'd think.

Nightmare is ghost type so its ectoplasm

How does that mean resisting dream eater isn't resisting dream and mind manipulation?

Magma Manipulation is an ability here

 

[Imaginym]

Nightmare is ghost type so its ectoplasm

If we use the "Assume certain abilities are consistent enough to be assumed for most moves of that type", yes, but other than several other Ghost-type moves being Ectoplasm/Darkness Manipulation (& in those cases, it's the "Shadow" moves.), I don't know of evidence to assume it shares those properties.
Also, I don't even know if Nightmare is affected by Type Matchups. Are Normal-types immune to it?

IIRC, the damage of it isn't affected by Types, so the damage's not something subject to being reduced by Types, either.

How does that mean resisting dream eater isn't resisting dream and mind manipulation?

I don't entirely recall the reasoning behind the conclusion to use the chosen methodology, but the consensus seems to determine what abilities are most strongly associated with types, & then assign resistances based on those, so that we don't go giving out Resistances for stuff that's atypical for the type (Ex: Move is a signature move or does weird things for the type few other moves do.), & only done by a small fraction.

@FinePoint : Would you be willing to chime in here & explain the reasoning behind the Resistance-determing methodology & what for what, if you're able & willing, please & thank you?

Magma Manipulation is an ability here

My mistake, I had looked up Lava Manipulation at first. You mentioned it, & typing in Lava Manipulation didn't provide a Magma Manipulation suggestion/autocorrect, so I didn't realize Magma Manipulation was an actual page.
I don't recall the exact consensus on Resisting Magma Manipulation. If I had to guess, I would ASSUME it was accepted for Fire-Types, but I do not remember/know at the moment.

 

[FinePoint]

I don't entirely recall the reasoning behind the conclusion to use the chosen methodology, but the consensus seems to determine what abilities are most strongly associated with types, & then assign resistances based on those, so that we don't go giving out Resistances for stuff that's atypical for the type (Ex: Move is a signature move or does weird things for the type few other moves do.), & only done by a small fraction.

@FinePoint : Would you be willing to chime in here & explain the reasoning behind the Resistance-determing methodology & what for what, if you're able & willing, please & thank you?

It stems from the idea that Pokémon resist the nature of an attack, rather than the specific consequences of an attack. For example, Ground Types are NOT immune to paralysis. Moves like Body Slam and Glare still paralyze them, but Thunder Wave does not because it is Electrical.

To avoid status moves, you have things like Ghost Types resisting confusion from Dynamic Punch, but not from Confusion.
Acid Spray can't reduce the defense of Steel types, but moves of other types can.

So the logic follows that Dark Types don't take damage from Dream Eater not because they're immune to sleep manipulation (this is untrue based on other moves anyways), but because Dream Eater is an attacking move that's Psychic-typed in nature.

 

[XXKINGXX69]

If we use the "Assume certain abilities are consistent enough to be assumed for most moves of that type", yes, but other than several other Ghost-type moves being Ectoplasm/Darkness Manipulation (& in those cases, it's the "Shadow" moves.), I don't know of evidence to assume it shares those properties.
Also, I don't even know if Nightmare is affected by Type Matchups. Are Normal-types immune to it?

IIRC, the damage of it isn't affected by Types, so the damage's not something subject to being reduced by Types, either.

I don't entirely recall the reasoning behind the conclusion to use the chosen methodology, but the consensus seems to determine what abilities are most strongly associated with types, & then assign resistances based on those, so that we don't go giving out Resistances for stuff that's atypical for the type (Ex: Move is a signature move or does weird things for the type few other moves do.), & only done by a small fraction.

My mistake, I had looked up Lava Manipulation at first. You mentioned it, & typing in Lava Manipulation didn't provide a Magma Manipulation suggestion/autocorrect, so I didn't realize Magma Manipulation was an actual page.
I don't recall the exact consensus on Resisting Magma Manipulation. If I had to guess, I would ASSUME it was accepted for Fire-Types, but I do not remember/know at the moment.

Ok maybe its not ectoplasm manip. But pokemon moves imbue themselves with a specific type of energy, like steely energy, "fighting energy", water energy and more. I think nightmare works on them because it has Ghost energy in it.

 

[Antvasima]

@Kirbyelmejor @The_2nd_Existential_Seed @Niarobi_(Formerly_Hadou) @Starter_Pack @Bobsican @GyroNutz @Robot972 @Sans2345 @Udlmaster @SamanPatou @Gilad_Hyperstar @Imaginym @DragonGamerZ913 @Spinoirr @The_real_cal_howard @RadicalMrR @ArbitraryNumbers @Elizhaa @MarvelFanatic119 @Dino_Ranger_Black @SuperKamiNappa @Hop_Hoppington-Hoppenhiemer @SomebodyData @Amelia_Lonelyheart @Dragonmasterxyz @Kirbyelmejor @Saikou_The_Lewd_King @ProfessorKukui4Life @Colonel_Krukov @GameHearo266 @Shadowbokunohero @Spinosaurus75DinosaurFan @Starter_Pack @Kaltias @Edwellken @Sandman31 @KingEzran @GyroNutz @Caleb3429 @Sans2345 @TriforcePower1 @Roachman40 @Alien_Dual_Blaster @Bobsican @The_Element_Kirbies @GojiBoyForever @CrackerVolley @ChocomilkAlex @Psychomaster35 @StrymULTRA @Ionliosite @SamanPatou @DragonGamerZ913 @ElixirBlue @Firestorm808 @KieranH10 @Valiant_Abyss @Executor_N0 @QuasiYuri @AceOfSpaces3709 @Theglassman12 @DarkDragonMedeus @The_Smashor

Would any of you be willing to help out here please?

 

[Psychomaster35]

Sounds like a good proposal as well

 

[Spinoirr]

Yeah sounds good

 

[Gilad_Hyperstar]

This seems like a good proposal for me as well

 

[Imaginym]

@Imaginym
(Among other users.)

Would any of you be willing to help out here please?

I have already posted in this thread. Not to say that I'm unwilling to participate further in it.
Is there a specific type of participation you're interested in me performing, if you'll pardon my asking, please?

(Although, there could the matter of typings having any energies, as the Plates & such imply.)

 

[SuperKamiNappa]

@SuperKamiNappa

Would any of you be willing to help out here please?

And to think I was just about to sit down to play BD…

What’s the tdlr of what’s been determined so far?

 

[GyroNutz]

Good idea.

What do you think? Can certain types be added or removed from the exclusion list? What's necessary, what's not?
Should we add even more to this blog, and include the scaling chain and other standards too?

All Ice types get resistance (immunity?) to Absolute Zero via being immune to Sheer Cold. You also missed out the Normal type under the "Complicated" types section.

Ghost, Psychic, Flying, Steel, Dark and possibly Fairy can be treated as specific resistances (Ectoplasm, Telekinesis, Air, Metal, Darkness Manip and possibly Magic respectively).

Moves section could be more specific about which moves in particular (i.e. any move learned via Level Up/Breeding in any generation), what Pokemon would get IQ moves (pre-gen 5 Pokemon) and what abilities this would grant (e.g. Intimidator would grant Fear Manipulation, Nonsleeper would grant Resistance to Sleep Manipulation).

An idea of which stage of Pokemon scales to which AP/speed could be a good idea. Stuff can be done with the range as well, since that section is generally quite poor. I'm also planning on improving the calc section to make the former even clearer.

 

[Bobsican]

There's already over 900 species thanks to Legends Arceus (Sneasler, Overqwil, Enamorus, Basculegion, Wyrdeer, Ursaluna, Kleavor), but that's besides the point.

Anyways, I agree with the premise in the Sandbox so far.

 

[Antvasima]

Thank you for helping out, Gyro.

 

[Valiant_Abyss]

This is fine, just one thing in the complicated types. You wrote Dragon's resistance to Dragon type moves and Ghost's resistance to Ghost type moves. I'm sure you know but Dragon is actually weak to dragon and same with ghost :V

 

[SuperKamiNappa]

Looking at the sandbox, I have 2 points

1. Magma and Heat manipulation can probably be added to Fire Type

2. I don’t think Ghost and Flying are too complicated, special Flying moves are consistently wind manipulation and Shadow manipulation is a fairly consistent trend among Ghost types. Also is there a reason Psychic can’t just be telekinesis?

 

[Imaginym]

All Ice types get resistance (immunity?) to Absolute Zero via being immune to Sheer Cold. You also missed out the Normal type under the "Complicated" types section.

Agreed.

Ghost, Psychic, Flying, Steel, Dark and possibly Fairy can be treated as specific resistances (Ectoplasm, Telekinesis, Air, Metal, Darkness Manip and possibly Magic respectively).

I posted like 3 times about this last thread.
Ghost does Shadow/Darkness seemingly as much as it does Ectoplasm.
Psychic has a lot of "Psychic Energy" moves for its attack. Psyshock, Psycho Cut, Psystrike. Psywave is also an Energy Attack, IIRC.
Dark type has only, 3, maybe 4 Darkness manipulation moves, tops, with far more of their moves not involving Darkness.
Fairy type I could see being Magic, although it also involves Mist in a lot of its moves.

An idea of which stage of Pokemon scales to which AP/speed could be a good idea. Stuff can be done with the range as well, since that section is generally quite poor. I'm also planning on improving the calc section to make the former even clearer.

If my memory serves, there are Calc Blogs linked on the 'verse page. That may be a useful resource for checking scaling. We also had a Range Revision that I assume was incompletely implemented as well, if only because of sheer scale.
However, even if Range is done, unlike Stamina, either or both of them may overcomplicate this a bit, I fear.

Also is there a reason Psychic can’t just be telekinesis?

As mentioned above, Psychic has a lot of Psychic Energy moves, not just Telekinesis.

 

[GyroNutz]

I posted like 3 times about this last thread.
Ghost does Shadow/Darkness seemingly as much as it does Ectoplasm.
Psychic has a lot of "Psychic Energy" moves for its attack. Psyshock, Psycho Cut, Psystrike. Psywave is also an Energy Attack, IIRC.
Dark type has only, 3, maybe 4 Darkness manipulation moves, tops, with far more of their moves not involving Darkness.
Fairy type I could see being Magic, although it also involves Mist in a lot of its moves.

I still don't see how this would be an issue though. We're not generalising all moves of a type under one ability, we're saying that a Pokemon who can resist Dark type moves should be able to resist Darkness manipulation for resisting the Dark moves that are in fact this ability. This only seems relevant when there's only like one or two moves that would fit the description, like Razor Wind being Normal type + Air Manip wouldn't lead to Ghost types resisting Air Manip.

If my memory serves, there are Calc Blogs linked on the 'verse page.

Yeah that's what I refer to when I talk about the "calc section". But it lumps supporting feats together with the main ones, whereas I think they should be separated. An example of which I've done here.

However, even if Range is done, unlike Stamina, either or both of them may overcomplicate this a bit, I fear.

Perhaps it would be complicated, but I also believe it's the only way to accurately index range given how many profiles we have.

 

[Arceus0x]

we went over this like 50 times in the last thread and we agreed with everyone there why the types we mentioned should stay the way they are in the sandbox

 

[GyroNutz]

we went over this like 50 times in the last thread and we agreed with everyone there why the types we mentioned should stay the way they are in the sandbox

I was in that thread and that's definitely not how it happened, the blog only contains specific resistances for the typings that didn't receive any debate. It's still perfectly valid for discussion.

 

[Lou_change]

Was TMs and space time manipulation agreed to be universal also I think flying type at least includes wind manipulation and fighting type chi manipulation even if people refuse to accept them being the universal energy used several moves in those types use that power.

 

[StrymULTRA]

I still stand that it should be damage reduction and not resistance.

 

[Imaginym]

I still don't see how this would be an issue though. We're not generalising all moves of a type under one ability, we're saying that a Pokemon who can resist Dark type moves should be able to resist Darkness manipulation for resisting the Dark moves that are in fact this ability. This only seems relevant when there's only like one or two moves that would fit the description, like Razor Wind being Normal type + Air Manip wouldn't lead to Ghost types resisting Air Manip.

So your position is we should give Resistances to Pokemon based on the abilities of each move? If so, I'm fine with that, so long as it's supported. No offense meant, not trying to stir up any controversy.

Yeah that's what I refer to when I talk about the "calc section". But it lumps supporting feats together with the main ones, whereas I think they should be separated. An example of which I've done here.

Useful blog!
By supporting feats, you mean those with lower ratings than the current Stages they'd scale to, right?

Perhaps it would be complicated, but I also believe it's the only way to accurately index range given how many profiles we have.

You think we should do Resistances/Type Stuff, Intelligence, Range AND Stamina AND IQ Skills all at once?

 

[CloverDragon03]

I like this, we finally can standardize the Pokemon profiles

 

[GyroNutz]

So your position is we should give Resistances to Pokemon based on the abilities of each move? If so, I'm fine with that, so long as it's supported. No offense meant, not trying to stir up any controversy.

Yeah basically. No offense was taken btw.

Useful blog!
By supporting feats, you mean those with lower ratings than the current Stages they'd scale to, right?

Yeah, or just lower values.

You think we should do Resistances/Type Stuff, Intelligence, Range AND Stamina AND IQ Skills all at once?

Well, the idea is that this is everything standard that can be expected to be found in a Pokemon profile. Maybe IQ skills don't have to be included, but at least a mention that only Pokemon from gens 1-4 would get them.

Was TMs and space time manipulation agreed to be universal also I think flying type at least includes wind manipulation and fighting type chi manipulation even if people refuse to accept them being the universal energy used several moves in those types use that power.

I don't think the TMs thread got anywhere. I also remember the space-time stuff, but don't remember what became of it. So, guess it's time to try and dig up some old CRTs

 

[Roachman40]

sounds good

 

[KieranH10]

Looks bueno.

 

[DarkDragonMedeus]

Mostly looks good, but I recall Gyro mentioning the part about Ice Pokemon being immune to Absolute Zero. I always found that to be a game mechanics, since being immune to being frozen to the coldest possible temperature would intently make them immune to all Ice and cold attacks in general. Which Ice Pokemon are not quite that and it sounds prone to NLF. Resistance perhaps, but immunity to a lot of things are often NLF and prefer them being treated as good resistance.

 

[Arceus0x]

Mostly looks good, but I recall Gyro mentioning the part about Ice Pokemon being immune to Absolute Zero. I always found that to be a game mechanics, since being immune to being frozen to the coldest possible temperature would intently make them immune to all Ice and cold attacks in general. Which Ice Pokemon are not quite that and it sounds prone to NLF. Resistance perhaps, but immunity to a lot of things are often NLF and prefer them being treated as good resistance.

i mean many ice attacks don't depend on freezing, rather on hitting the opponent physically and dealing damage with that.