Pokémon - Range scaling issues

[Imaginym]

One other matter is that of Pokemon kind of showing their range.

Besides individual feats -Like the Earthquakes & other moves, Ampharos, which learns several Light-based move & has a feat of its light being visible from space, which is easily multiple tens of KM if projected from sea level- there's the matter of manipulation.

Pokemon can use their Water or Electricity or Ice Manipulation to influence the weather, even influencing it in a great area from where the user is.
& they do use weather moves to attack: Thunder summons storm clouds that drop a lightning bolt. Blizzard is using a blizzard to attack the opponent. Hurricane is attacking with a hurricane. Earth Power is drawing up earth/magma to make the ground "erupt".

If a Pokemon can apply its elemental manipulation to project part of an attack at X distance away from itself, why assume it can't do so with other moves of that Pokemon involving that kind of manipulation, especially when it's already using its abilities to manipulate such things to attack?

 

[LordGinSama]

They are? Read the profiles. The 3rd stage/final stage/mega keys are the only ones on the given Pokémon’s page that has that range for them.

They are, the profiles just need to explain which attacks have those range. The way its structured is currently vague, like I said just clarifying it would be the best option.

And I do as well. Like I said, I don’t want to deviate to another verses case, but DB is a clear example of this site going with this type of standard for range, so Pokémon is not a unique anamoly where range is treated like this.

(And yes I’m perfectly fine with downgrading those ranges for DB characters too, but ya know, good luck doing that).

Don't you worry about that.

 

[StrymULTRA]

Again, you can drop the attitude. Everyone here is remaining respectful, I'd suggest stop getting so emotional because your verse is getting downgraded. None of what you said are comparable to one another, Hyper Beam and Dragon Pulse aren't the same attacks.

Common sense says such, since they behave similarly. Plus again, I'm saying to see which moves have feats of such range, not that "every move I want to has range". We should analyze each move and see which ones are comparable to Thunderbolt/Earthquake.

 

[ProfessorKukui4Life]

One other matter is that of Pokemon kind of showing their range.

Besides individual feats -Like the Earthquakes & other moves, Ampharos, which learns several Light-based move & has a feat of its light being visible from space, which is easily multiple tens of KM if projected from sea level- there's the matter of manipulation.

Pokemon can use their Water or Electricity or Ice Manipulation to influence the weather, even influencing it in a great area from where the user is.
& they do use weather moves to attack: Thunder summons storm clouds that drop a lightning bolt. Blizzard is using a blizzard to attack the opponent. Hurricane is attacking with a hurricane. Earth Power is drawing up earth/magma to make the ground "erupt".

If a Pokemon can apply its elemental manipulation to project part of an attack at X distance away from itself, why assume it can't do so with other moves of that Pokemon involving that kind of manipulation, especially when it's already using its abilities to manipulate such things to attack?

This is a good point btw to consider as well

If a character can use their energy attacks for example to cover a certain range, what’s stopping us from saying their other energy attacks that are manipulated by the same skill set can cover the same range?

 

[LordGinSama]

I'd downgrade One Piece based on this too

Try and be my guest, you'll just get clowned on.

Common sense says such, since they behave similarly. Plus again, I'm saying to see which moves have feats of such range, not that "every move I want to has range". We should analyze each move and see which ones are comparable to Thunderbolt/Earthquake.

Common sense

Doesn't even provide citation or scans. That's some real good Common sense you've got there. "Behaving similarly" =/= the same thing.

 

[ProfessorKukui4Life]

Try and be my guest, you'll just get clowned on.

Common sense

Doesn't even provide citation or scans. That's some real good Common sense you've got there. "Behaving similarly" =/= the same thing.

Enough with the attitude on your part as well Gin

 

[MonkeyOfLife]

I'd downgrade One Piece based on this too

It’s already downgraded asf… why does downgrading it more make it worse?

 

[StrymULTRA]

It’s already downgraded asf… why does downgrading it more make it worse?

This whole thread is done from salt due of a Pokemon vs OP thread soooo

 

[LordGinSama]

This whole thread is done from salt due of a Pokemon vs OP thread soooo

Ironic considering you're the only one being evidently salty.

 

[MonkeyOfLife]

This whole thread is done from salt due of a Pokemon vs OP thread soooo

And because there isn’t a justification on why Pokémon should have that range… doesn’t matter about the match…. Could have been Pokémon vs Baki verse or something, it still would’ve been made

 

[LordGinSama]

Enough with the attitude on your part as well Gin

There's no attitude, a simple sarcastic remark at best but point taken. Anyway, dropping the argument with that user as a whole so moving on.

 

[Planck69]

@ProfessorKukui4Life Dragon Ball's sort of a bad example anyway, since they operate on a universal power system and it's more likely that equal amounts of that energy would be at the same scope from my understanding.

And Strym, be more mature about this. If you have citations, scans and the like then post them and debate properly.

 

[ProfessorKukui4Life]

@ProfessorKukui4Life Dragon Ball's sort of a bad example anyway, since they operate on a universal power system and it's more likely that equal amounts of that energy would be at the same scope from my understanding.

Maybe, but if that’s the case, then Pokémon should also qualify for also operating on universal power systems of their own (Infinity Energy, Aura, etc)

 

[StrymULTRA]

I. Already. Have. We got Thunderbolt, Earthquake and Hyper Beam as examples. Attacks which are similar to them in nature should get such range as well due of scaling.

 

[LordGinSama]

One other matter is that of Pokemon kind of showing their range.

All of their range? They sure as hell don't.

Besides individual feats -Like the Earthquakes & other moves, Ampharos, which learns several Light-based move & has a feat of its light being visible from space, which is easily multiple tens of KM if projected from sea level- there's the matter of manipulation.

All of those moves utilize different elements, they wouldn't All have the same exact range.

Pokemon can use their Water or Electricity or Ice Manipulation to influence the weather, even influencing it in a great area from where the user is.

So that's from Weather Manipulation, nothing more, nothing less.

& they do use weather moves to attack: Thunder summons storm clouds that drop a lightning bolt. Blizzard is using a blizzard to attack the opponent. Hurricane is attacking with a hurricane. Earth Power is drawing up earth/magma to make the ground "erupt".

Which I why I said "via Weather Manipulation." is the most appropriate.

If a Pokemon can apply its elemental manipulation to project part of an attack at X distance away from itself, why assume it can't do so with other moves of that Pokemon involving that kind of manipulation, especially when it's already using its abilities to manipulate such things to attack?

Because they aren't all the same type of manipulation, they're all different elements and different forms of energy. We don't assume as much because you yourself need to prove they do, the burden of evidence is on you to prove that Pokemon's attacks all have the same range despite being different.

 

[Planck69]

I very much doubt we range scale attacks that way but I'm going to sleep after this post anyway so I don't have the time to consider it.

I hope people act civil about this.

 

[StrymULTRA]

I mean, we got even Flamethrower which is stated to melt Mountains as evidence too

 

[LordGinSama]

I. Already. Have. We got Thunderbolt, Earthquake and Hyper Beam as examples. Attacks which are similar to them in nature should get such range as well due of scaling.

One deals with lightning, one deals with earth manipulation and one deals with fire. They aren't at all similar.

 

[ProfessorKukui4Life]

So that's from Weather Manipulation, nothing more, nothing less.

Which I why I said "via Weather Manipulation." is the most appropriate.

Blasting a ball or blast of electricity or fire is most certainly not weather manipulation.

 

[LordGinSama]

I mean, we got even Flamethrower which is stated to melt Mountains as evidence too

And why would that be applicable to all attacks, let alone scale to every Pokémon?

 

[RazumaHiroki]

I hope people act civil about this.

About that...

This whole thread is done from salt due of a Pokemon vs OP thread soooo

How does that invalidate anything the OP said? Even most knowledgeable Pokémon supporters acknowledge the issue here.

 

[LordGinSama]

Blasting a ball or blast of electricity or fire is most certainly not weather manipulation.

Twisting the context huh? I was saying that in response to the weather Manipulation, don't state the obvious Kukui. A blast of Ice is applicable to ice Manipulation, a fire blast is applicable to fire Manipulation.


And I haven't seen calculations for most of this.

 

[StrymULTRA]

One deals with lightning, one deals with earth manipulation and one deals with fire. They aren't at all similar.

They're still energy attack which are shot like beams with Earthquake as supporting evidence. And you seriously said that Hyper Beam is fire?

 

[LordGinSama]

They're still energy attack which are shot like beams with Earthquake as supporting evidence.

They aren't all the same type of energy, that's like me saying my punches should also have that range because they produce "energy." energy comes in different forms.

And you seriously said that Hyper Beam is fire?

Doesn't matter what Hyber Beam is composed of, point being that's its different than a flipping earthquake.

 

[StrymULTRA]

They aren't all the same type of energy, that's like me saying my punches should also have that range because they produce "energy." energy comes in different forms.

Doesn't matter what Hyber Beam is composed of, point being that's its different than a flipping earthquake.

So you ignore thunderbolt and flamethrower again.

If 4 things which are fundamentally different on a elemental Physiology share a similar range, why would all the other elements not be the same, if they're comparable to these 4? We ain't making out of 18 types only 4 with that range, it would be ridiculous.

 

[LordGinSama]

So you ignore thunderbolt and flamethrower again.

I already replied to both, Flamethrower and Thunderbolt aren't the same moves. They'd have no reason to have the same range, let alone scale to every Pokémon.

If 4 things which are fundamentally different on a elemental Physiology share a similar range, why would all the other elements not be the same, if they're comparable to these 4? We ain't making out of 18 types only 4 with that range, it would be ridiculous.

Because the remaining elements haven't shown to travel as far, it's simple as that. If you can provide said elements traveling an equal distance that's fine.

 

[StrymULTRA]

So now Pokemon has only 4 types out of 18 which have that range despite all of them are equal. Makes really sense dude, really. I can't even comprehend how did you even reached this conclusion.

 

[ProfessorKukui4Life]

Yeah I’m with Strym on this one. If multiple of completely different types are all shown to opperate at the same range, that already fulfills the burden of proof for proving what their range is

Asking for literally all of them to be proven to go to the same extent is just a witch hunt at that point. What more is needed?

 

[LordGinSama]

So now Pokemon has only 4 types out of 18 which have that range despite all of them are equal.

Still haven't seen proper citation for this. Either provide evidence or don't make the claim at all.

Makes really sense dude, really. I can't even comprehend how did you even reached this conclusion.

Perhaps because you aren't providing actual scans or citation? You have zero proof to showcase. If you did we wouldn't be having this discussion.

 

[Imaginym]

Because I saw some mention/discussion of Thunder/Thunderbolt. (However, Thunder seems to be the one with the range feat, setting aside the very real possibility there's an anime feat I missed.)
See the Generation 3, 4, HG/SS, Gen 5, Gen 6 & probably other animations regarding Thunder's range. https://bulbapedia.bulbagarden.net/wiki/Thunder_(move)#Core_series_games
I'm also very sure there's anime feats regarding its range. (One that comes to mind is a part of Ash vs Claire, I think.)

All of those moves utilize different elements, they wouldn't All have the same exact range.

Not the point. The point is that those moves use the same elements as Pokemon use for other attacks:

Many Pokemon that learn Blizzard learn Powder Snow, Ice Beam, Ice Ball, Freeze Dry, Icy Wind, Ice Shard. If they can project their Ice Manipulation as far as with Blizzard, why assume they can't do so for other moves, especially less energy intensive moves?

Many Pokemon that can learn Thunder can use Thunderbolt, Discharge, Shock Wave, Charge Beam. If they can project their Electricity Manipulation as far as with Thunder, why assume they can't do so for other moves, especially less energy intensive moves?

Etc.

So that's from Weather Manipulation, nothing more, nothing less.

The point was that they demonstrate range with their abilities that they use in Weather Manipulation. & often, they create the weather through their abilities, not the weather creating their attacks.
& you should know that Weather Manipulation often involves Manipulating the components of the resulting Weather.

Because they aren't all the same type of manipulation, they're all different elements and different forms of energy. We don't assume as much because you yourself need to prove they do, the burden of evidence is on you to prove that Pokemon's attacks all have the same range despite being different.

I agree. Using them as examples again, Blizzard & Thunder AREN'T the same element.
But Blizzard is definitely Ice, & so is Ice Ball & Ice Beam; Those 3 are the same element.
& Thunder (The Pokemon move.) is definitely Electric & Thunderbolt & Discharge are all Electric; Those 3 are the same element.

Pokemon demonstrate that they can manipulate certain elements at a distance. That was my point in the post you quoted.

Whether it applies to other Types is another matter that wasn't what I was bringing up.

 

[StrymULTRA]

Still haven't seen proper citation for this. Either provide evidence or don't make the claim at all.

Perhaps because you aren't providing actual scans or citation? You have zero proof to showcase. If you did we wouldn't be having this discussion.

... because it's how Pokémon types work here lmfao.

 

[Lightbuster30]

So now Pokemon has only 4 types out of 18 which have that range despite all of them are equal. Makes really sense dude, really. I can't even comprehend how did you even reached this conclusion.

Is that it? A fraction of all types? Not even a majority?

 

[MonkeyOfLife]

All logia users same range? All devil fruit users same range?

 

[StrymULTRA]

Is that it? A fraction of all types? Not even a majority?

I mean, I can take more due of Defog, Ice Beam or some psychic barriers which have similar feats too, but you got the point. Different types despite being fundamentally different have shown similar properties in AP and range, limiting said range to an arbitrary group of them when all of them are equal (should I mention the Plates here?) it's just ridiculous.

 

[LordGinSama]

Because I saw some mention/discussion of Thunder/Thunderbolt. (However, Thunder seems to be the one with the range feat, setting aside the very real possibility there's an anime feat I missed.)
See the Generation 3, 4, HG/SS, Gen 5, Gen 6 & probably other animations regarding Thunder's range. https://bulbapedia.bulbagarden.net/wiki/Thunder_(move)#Core_series_games
I'm also very sure there's anime feats regarding its range. (One that comes to mind is a part of Ash vs Claire, I think.)

My only issue with this is again, it needs to have a calculation before we give it a random label for range.

Not the point. The point is that those moves use the same elements as Pokemon use for other attacks:

And how exactly do we know they use the same moves to the same exact degree as other Pokémon? Further elaborate would be nice.

Many Pokemon that learn Blizzard learn Powder Snow, Ice Beam, Ice Ball, Freeze Dry, Icy Wind, Ice Shard. If they can project their Ice Manipulation as far as with Blizzard, why assume they can't do so for other moves, especially less energy intensive moves?

If the other moves aren't using as intensity then that's just more of a reason why they shouldn't have that range. I've never seen a verse that handles range in such a fashion. If one attack using significantly more intensity and show cases range, then logically an attack with a lesser intensity would have lessee range.

Many Pokemon that can learn Thunder can use Thunderbolt, Discharge, Shock Wave, Charge Beam. If they can project their Electricity Manipulation as far as with Thunder, why assume they can't do so for other moves, especially less energy intensive moves?

You just wrote the same thing as you did above so I'm not even gonna address this. Not really sure what the element has to do with it when all are different attacks using different levels of intensity.

The point was that they demonstrate range with their abilities that they use in Weather Manipulation. & often, they create the weather through their abilities, not the weather creating their attacks.

So the weather would be an indirect consequence, and that seems more like a chain reaction at that point. So I'm not sure how that's applicable to direct attacks.

& you should know that Weather Manipulation often involves Manipulating the components of the resulting Weather.

That's a case by case basis, depending on the context.

I agree. Using them as examples again, Blizzard & Thunder AREN'T the same element.

Glad we agree on this much.

But Blizzard is definitely Ice, & so is Ice Ball & Ice Beam; Those 3 are the same element.
& Thunder (The Pokemon move.) is definitely Electric & Thunderbolt & Discharge are all Electric; Those 3 are the same element.

This has a little bit more logical evidence, but how exactly do we know that all electrical (and so on and so forth.) all have the same exact range?

Pokemon demonstrate that they can manipulate certain elements at a distance. That was my point in the post you quoted.

The issue here is what we need to figure what kind of distance.

Whether it applies to other Types is another matter that wasn't what I was bringing up.

Fair.

 

[LordGinSama]

Also I'm like 99% sure Chairzard's Flamethrower calculation isn't even used anymore. Last I remember that got the axe.


Edit: Yup the feat isn't even being used and isn't accepted anymore. So I'm not sure why people are trying to use a non accepted calc as support for absurd range.

 

[Lightbuster30]

It's still used iirc. But I do disagree with using it for range. We don't know how far away it can be done from, and I'm pretty certain we can't scale range to the heat spreading through the mountain and melting it.

 

[StrymULTRA]

Also I'm like 99% sure Chairzard's Flamethrower calculation isn't even used anymore. Last I remember that got the axe.

It still is actually.

 

[ProfessorKukui4Life]

If the other moves aren't using as intensity then that's just more of a reason why they shouldn't have that range. I've never seen a verse that handles range in such a fashion. If one attack using significantly more intensity and show cases range, then logically an attack with a lesser intensity would have lessee range.

Pretty sure your missing his point. If a lesser intense move doesn't require as much, that gives the user of the move more room to give that lesser intense move the same range as what they would do with a more intense move.

Also I'm like 99% sure Chairzard's Flamethrower calculation isn't even used anymore. Last I remember that got the axe.

No, the calc for it is being used at this time now.

 

[Lightbuster30]

Pretty sure your missing his point. If a lesser intense move doesn't require as much, that gives the user of the move more room to give that lesser intense move the same range as what they would do with a more intense move.

Wouldn't a weaker attack have less energy to travel farther with?