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Removing the Charizard Feat (Pokémon Downgrade)

Starter_Pack

Starter_Pack

The Forgotten, Yet Destined
VS Battles
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I usually don't try to screw with the major statistics of franchises unless pushed, but this one has been a long time coming for me.

Currently, the Pokémon verse, particularly the final evolutions and by extension the various powered-up Pokémon such as Mega-Evolutions and Gigantamax forms, all scale from this feat of Charizard being able to melt entire mountains. And while it is true that there are plenty of statements in the Pokédex where Charizard can melt the likes of boulders, I have been extremely questionable about this feat for a long time.

For starters, the only reason I didn't think too much of it beforehand was because it was more of a supporting feat for the much more reliable feat of Pupitar knocking down an entire mountain by shaking, which was calculated to be 7-A+. However, that feat has since been recalculated, and is now rated at High 7-C, leaving this one open and exposed for ridicule.

What kind of ridicule, you may ask? Well, how about the fact that the statement is made by a random NPC in the spin-off Pokémon Mystery Dungeon series?

Pokemon_Mystery_Dungeon__Red_Rescue_Team-2.png

Needless to say, this is a quite questionable source. Yes, we often give characters certain tiers due to statements alone. However, in this case, we are dealing with a Pokémon within a group that is very famous in this world, so much so that hyperbolic statements are not exactly impossible given their reputation.

Is it possible that Charizard could melt a mountain if he wanted to? Maybe. Has he ever performed such a feat like that before? I don't know. What I do know is that such a statement needs proof that it could actually happen, such as the boulder melting statements within the Pokédex. But having it come out of the mouth of a random townsfolk that is likely going off of hearsay? I just can't trust it.

Therefore, I propose that we remove this feat from the verse entirely, and bring all applicable Pokémon down to the next applicable feat, which would be either the Rockruff feat or the Defog feat. This, in turn, would remove Mega-Evolutions and the like from High 7-A, leaving them as simply higher in 7-A.
 
I'm guessing the Defog calc will be used for final stage Pokemon now? If that's the case, they'd be 326 megatons and Megas/Gigantamaxes would be 652 megatons.
 
With the Defog scaling, aren‘t there first stage Pokémon or something that can learn Defog through leveling up or breeding? Wouldn’t that also make them 7-A as of result
 
Honestly I have to disagree

The hyperbole argument, actually, was already literally argued already in the blog of an older version of this calced feat and was countered by Matthew and Cal.

This very same Lombre that gives the mountain melting statement for Charizard is also shown, later in the game, to be knowledgeable on the likes of power from legendary Pokémon (Mewtwo, Groudon and Kyogre more specifically)

There’s no real reason to think his comment here about Charizard is hyperbole.

EDIT: Adding to that, given that Lombre also gave brief explanations on Tyranitar and Alakazams abilities, ones we of course know are legit or line up very similarily to sources like the Pokédex, why should we think Charizards is the odd one out?
 
Last edited:
ProfessorKukui4Life said:
Honestly I have to disagree

The hyperbole argument, actually, was already literally argued already in the blog of an older version of this calced feat and was countered by Matthew and Cal.

This very same Lombre that gives the mountain melting statement for Charizard is also shown, later in the game, to be knowledgeable on the likes of power from legendary Pokémon (Mewtwo, Groudon and Kyogre more specifically)

There’s no real reason to think his comment here about Charizard is hyperbole.

EDIT: Adding to that, given that Lombre also gave brief explanations on Tyranitar and Alakazams abilities, ones we of course know are legit or line up very similarily to sources like the Pokédex, why should we think Charizards is the odd one out?
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Agreed.
 
I wasn't aware of all this that Lombre did (as I'm not familiar with Mystery Dungeon). With all this, he seems far more reliable, so I'm gonna actually agree with Kukui FRA.
 
I still think the statement is pretty questionable no matter who does it. Especially since, if memory serves, this is Charizard comes from an incredibly powerful and well-respected exploration team, which means he might be an outlier in terms of power even if he can actually melt mountains. Considering Pokèmon Mystery Dungeon has a tier 2 Grovyle, this shouldn't be hard to believe.
 
Like Armor said.

Just because they do line up with the Pokédex info doesn't necessarily mean they are completely accurate. As you say, both Tyranitar and Alakazam are accurate enough, that much is true. However, again, the lone statement is not supported by the multiple consistent statements from the Pokédex that only shows Charizard at being able to melt boulders. He could be an exception to the rule, at the very least.
 
Starter_Pack said:
However, again, the lone statement is not supported by the multiple consistent statements from the Pokédex that only shows Charizard at being able to melt boulders. He could be an exception to the rule, at the very least.
Click to expand...
That's not a counter in all honestly. You're implying that statement says that Charizard can melt boulders at best, when it's obviously not the case.
 
I'm not saying Charizard can melt boulders at best. I'm saying that melting boulders is Charizard's most consistent feat. Anything beyond that needs actual proof that it can or has happened. Not just from the hearsay of a random, yet notably knowledgeable, townsfolk.

Again, the Charizard of Team ACT could just be an exceptionally powerful member of his species, much like PMD Grovyle or anime Bewear. (Not as blatant as those, but you get the picture.)
 
Most consistent feat =/= best feat. If nothing says that melting boulders is the peak then we can assume that it can be casual, giving that we got even the mountain statement to back such up
 
Armorchompy said:
I still think the statement is pretty questionable no matter who does it. Especially since, if memory serves, this is Charizard comes from an incredibly powerful and well-respected exploration team, which means he might be an outlier in terms of power even if he can actually melt mountains. Considering Pokèmon Mystery Dungeon has a tier 2 Grovyle, this shouldn't be hard to believe.
Click to expand...
That’s not a fair comparison given the fact that, disregarding special cases like the tier 2 scaling, mystery dungeon Pokémon are all literally wild Pokémon, holding the natural capabilities of their wild species without becoming special variants that they would normally become under trainer supervision.

Sure, cases like Grovyle exist in MD, but that clearly isn’t the same kind of case here with Team ACT. If anything, wanting to compare them to Pokémon who can fight legendaries actually goes against the point rather than for it (since unlike Groyvle and Primal Dialga, ACT gets absolutely demolished against Groudon/Kyogre in their games, with Alakazam IIRC being the only one left to even luckily stand)


Starter_Pack said:
Like Armor said.

Just because they do line up with the Pokédex info doesn't necessarily mean they are completely accurate.
Click to expand...
Sure, but the main point was more so that if Lombre’s info generally lines up, if not perfectly matches the Pokédex, why think his word here with Charizard is any different in the first place?

And this is without factoring in Lombre being knowledgeable on legendary Pokémon (who of course are far less common to know about than Pokémon like Charizard).
 
Armorchompy said:
I still think the statement is pretty questionable no matter who does it. Especially since, if memory serves, this is Charizard comes from an incredibly powerful and well-respected exploration team, which means he might be an outlier in terms of power even if he can actually melt mountains. Considering Pokèmon Mystery Dungeon has a tier 2 Grovyle, this shouldn't be hard to believe.
Click to expand...
Just have everyone at tier 2 you coward
 
Hmm, very well. After hearing these explanations, I suppose that the rating can stay for the time being. I don't very well approve of it, but it is what it is.
 
Just because a Pokèmon cannot fight a legendary doesn't mean that they aren't extraordinary, and all signs point to that team being well beyond a normal wild Pokèmon.
 
They're Pokèmon who live in a society that offers training methods such as shops that sell TMs or whatever and various dungeons, and adventure in various dungeons getting much more battle experience than any wild Pokèmon in the mainline games ever would, and even among those they're incredibly experienced.
 
Armorchompy said:
They're Pokèmon who live in a society that offers training methods such as shops that sell TMs or whatever and various dungeons, and adventure in various dungeons getting much more battle experience than any wild Pokèmon in the mainline games ever would, and even among those they're incredibly experienced.
Click to expand...
Considering those dungeons for the most part are most filled with other wild Pokémon (who are also just fodder obstacles and absolutely no different from other members of their species), this isn’t really saying much. A wild Pokémon fighting another wild Pokémon is a far cry from them being incredibly experienced. Especially if most of your opponents are practically just targets.

And while sure that MD offers training methods or things like TMs, you would need to prove ACT specifically uses those methods to get where they are at. So far, nothing hints to them using methods like this. Just their own natural potential, which isn’t any different from any ordinary Charizard, Tyranitar or Alakazam (Lombres explanation of their abilities if anything supports them being the same as well).
 
Yeah, I agree with removing it and not only because of the questionable accuracy but also because we, for whatever reason, assume Charizard can melt an entire mountain in a second or less? Where was that ever implied? It also assumes that flame thrower has several kilometers of range and can cover an area of several sq kilometers which seems iffy to say the least, but whatever. About the "what to replace it with". The Rockruff feat has no scans, no context and 2km is an absurd assumption. It hasn't been accepted either. The defog feat . . . where to even start. The fog is never shown to be higher than the trees. The top of the trees always sticks out. There being higher places with fog doesn’t mean anything since fog can very much hang on mountain slopes. That's a very common occurrence. The calculated speed is just insane. No tree could withstand such wind speeds. Ever. Why do we assume that the timeframe is 100% legit when the map size is so obviously adjusted for player convenience (nobody would want to actually traverse a 60km route by foot in a game, lol). By this logic the trainer would be absurdly fast for moving across routes. It very clearly was sped up so you wouldn't have to wait for an eternity for it to clear up.


Now what to replace it with? Volcarona calc maybe? Oh wait, that one is bad too. It assumes it, for whatever reason covers half the earth . . . why? Where was it stated that such and absurd area was being covered? You know how far you'd need to be away from earth to reach even half that far? 1800KM. You know how far volcanic ash rises at most? 45KM. Volcarona's light wouldn't reach the earth either.

What about the Drifloon feat? Honestly, that might work, tho some of the pixel measuring seems off and for some reason the cloud the explosion created was measured, but eh. Couldn't be bothered to properly check. Sadly don't know the chapter of this either. Otherwise I'd go and check. If anyone can tell me, that's be great.

While I am at it, might as well do every other calc that seems odd.

Why is this even still up?

This is a small boat, maybe 5-7m long. The calc actually has a number twist in it as well. redoing it with more reasonable numbers makes it tier 8 Not sure if it was ever even accepted tho.

Why do we assume that the whirlpool is consistently swirling the entire volume of the whirlpool around? Also with this kind of animation it is basically impossible to tell how fast it turns. Instead why not just calculate at what speed the water was displaced? Also, interesting whirlpool. I have no idea how it works, since it seems to push away water instead of sucking it in.

Why is there no time frame? Do we just assume Pupitar does it in one fell swoop? If you put that much energy into a mountain all at once you'll just break a huge chunk out of it. It won't topple. Ever. Also, if we take the Tyranitar evolution dex entries at face value, mountainous regions would become utterly uninhabitable and drawing maps would be nigh impossible.

Did y'all actually pixel measure a lightning bolt? Yikes. That's almost like pixel measuring a sun, lol. Oh wait . . . we do that too. Anyways, you can't actually pixel measure a lightning bolt. What you measure isn't the actual bolt but the incredibly bright light it emits. This is especially bad when you consider that the measurement this is compared to isn't the apparent size of a lightning bolt, but its actual size.

Technically not wrong, but the thought of Pokémon scaling to a 3.6 degree temperature change cracks me up.

Not gonna touch below tier 7 stuff. I am not that brutal (and mostly just too lazy.) However, I will take a look at the legendary stuff ovo

This feat never happened. Literally. I rest my case

Never played that game and wont pretend I did, but it'd be lovely to know why the assumption here is basically the equivalency of "To move a cars engine you need equal or greater energy than what said engine can produce."

Shadow Mewtwo doesn't destroy anything tho? That may be the area of effect, but there is absolutely no indication of this being an attack comparable to an explosion. Once the move is over the ground is even covered in residue of the attack which looks nothing like what you'd expect from an explosion.

Ok, first of all, someone made a better calc in the comments. Secondly, when did absorption become AP? About spreading the light . . . you can't really make an AP calc with FTL light, lol.

Why is there no timeframe? Actually, wait, aren't we assuming time frames for PE calcs like this? Are we seriously assuming that raising a continent in a second is just as impressive as raising it over literally any other duration because the PE is the same in the end!? If so PE calcs need to have their standards revised.

I might come back for more . . . or not. Idk.
 
RatherClueless said:
Yeah, I agree with removing it and not only because of the questionable accuracy but also because we, for whatever reason, assume Charizard can melt an entire mountain in a second or less? Where was that ever implied? It also assumes that flame thrower has several kilometers of range and can cover an area of several sq kilometers which seems iffy to say the least, but whatever. About the "what to replace it with". The Rockruff feat has no scans, no context and 2km is an absurd assumption. It hasn't been accepted either. The defog feat . . . where to even start. The fog is never shown to be higher than the trees. The top of the trees always sticks out. There being higher places with fog doesn’t mean anything since fog can very much hang on mountain slopes. That's a very common occurrence. The calculated speed is just insane. No tree could withstand such wind speeds. Ever. Why do we assume that the timeframe is 100% legit when the map size is so obviously adjusted for player convenience (nobody would want to actually traverse a 60km route by foot in a game, lol). By this logic the trainer would be absurdly fast for moving across routes. It very clearly was sped up so you wouldn't have to wait for an eternity for it to clear up.


Now what to replace it with? Volcarona calc maybe? Oh wait, that one is bad too. It assumes it, for whatever reason covers half the earth . . . why? Where was it stated that such and absurd area was being covered? You know how far you'd need to be away from earth to reach even half that far? 1800KM. You know how far volcanic ash rises at most? 45KM. Volcarona's light wouldn't reach the earth either.

What about the Drifloon feat? Honestly, that might work, tho some of the pixel measuring seems off and for some reason the cloud the explosion created was measured, but eh. Couldn't be bothered to properly check. Sadly don't know the chapter of this either. Otherwise I'd go and check. If anyone can tell me, that's be great.

While I am at it, might as well do every other calc that seems odd.

Why is this even still up?

This is a small boat, maybe 5-7m long. The calc actually has a number twist in it as well. redoing it with more reasonable numbers makes it tier 8 Not sure if it was ever even accepted tho.

Why do we assume that the whirlpool is consistently swirling the entire volume of the whirlpool around? Also with this kind of animation it is basically impossible to tell how fast it turns. Instead why not just calculate at what speed the water was displaced? Also, interesting whirlpool. I have no idea how it works, since it seems to push away water instead of sucking it in.

Why is there no time frame? Do we just assume Pupitar does it in one fell swoop? If you put that much energy into a mountain all at once you'll just break a huge chunk out of it. It won't topple. Ever. Also, if we take the Tyranitar evolution dex entries at face value, mountainous regions would become utterly uninhabitable and drawing maps would be nigh impossible.

Did y'all actually pixel measure a lightning bolt? Yikes. That's almost like pixel measuring a sun, lol. Oh wait . . . we do that too. Anyways, you can't actually pixel measure a lightning bolt. What you measure isn't the actual bolt but the incredibly bright light it emits. This is especially bad when you consider that the measurement this is compared to isn't the apparent size of a lightning bolt, but its actual size.

Technically not wrong, but the thought of Pokémon scaling to a 3.6 degree temperature change cracks me up.

Not gonna touch below tier 7 stuff. I am not that brutal (and mostly just too lazy.) However, I will take a look at the legendary stuff ovo

This feat never happened. Literally. I rest my case

Never played that game and wont pretend I did, but it'd be lovely to know why the assumption here is basically the equivalency of "To move a cars engine you need equal or greater energy than what said engine can produce."

Shadow Mewtwo doesn't destroy anything tho? That may be the area of effect, but there is absolutely no indication of this being an attack comparable to an explosion. Once the move is over the ground is even covered in residue of the attack which looks nothing like what you'd expect from an explosion.

Ok, first of all, someone made a better calc in the comments. Secondly, when did absorption become AP? About spreading the light . . . you can't really make an AP calc with FTL light, lol.

Why is there no timeframe? Actually, wait, aren't we assuming time frames for PE calcs like this? Are we seriously assuming that raising a continent in a second is just as impressive as raising it over literally any other duration because the PE is the same in the end!? If so PE calcs need to have their standards revised.

I might come back for more . . . or not. Idk.
Click to expand...
Why are you talking about all these other calcs when the Charizard feat is the focus?
 
Most of the reasonings why you disagree with these calcs is pretty much contradicting this wiki standards like asking for a timeframe for PE feats or even against the lore like Deoxys Meteor or Necrozma's light.

Tho I think this thread should be closed as OP kinda of conceded
 
BTW I've removed the PMD 5-B feat from the verse page, it was agreed to be removed in the Tier 3 CRT re wording due of it unironically putting on par Deoxys and Mega Rayquaza, and I've legimately forgot to remove it from there lol
 
But anyway yeah, nothing is really left to discuss, OP conceded and now thread is derailing so no point in keeping it
 
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